Blackhawk Down, Had Concerns

[Baddad]

Hi All,

My son is a Blackhawk pilot in Afghanistan. Yesterday I heard that a "bird" was down, 7 US soldiers killed.

My son is in the US Army.
He is okay. For some 13 hours I was concerned.
He did not respond to my emails. He is now in a poor coms area.

Then at 8:30 PM a message from his wife (in Germany) confirming all is well. Followed by an email from the flyboy himself.

Its not what a parent wants to experience too often.:sadeyes:

The bird that went down was mechanical failure. Taliban automatically claim responsibility. They did harass the recovery aircraft and team.
They are dirty cowardly fighters, hitting an ambulance team.:mad2:

No longer stressed:)
Cheers:)

[Miaplacidus]

Hi Marty,
I'm very glad to hear your son is safe.
Regards,
Brian.

[Baddad]

Thanks for responding Brian.:)

Heard the weather is poor down there.:sadeyes:

Regarding the Taliban. They also attack at funerals. They have no ethics at all. Its not a level playing field. The US and Australians have rules of engagement that they must abide by.:mad2:

Cheers:)

[Ric]

Glad to hear he is ok Marty.

Stuff like that can be pretty stressful on the old ticker for sure.

[Astro_Bot]

They have no honour. Worse, they don't even know what 'honour' is!

[PCH]

I'd be the first to say that I understand Marty's fear for his son's safety, so my thoughts are with you there Marty, and my hopes for his safe return.

But, if they (the T) were over here in our country, I'm guessing you guys would be among the first to say that 'whatever it takes to get them out' would be fair game. I'm fairly sure they didn't invite us into their country, so they're just doing what we would do to them.

And let's not forget that the Taliban were trained largely by the Brits and Yanks when it suited them to have a friendly local militia harrassing the Russians while it was their playing field in the 90s.

As for ethics and honour, - I imagine you're thinking about the way the 'allies' conducted themselves at Abu Ghraib prison when you talk about ethics and honour...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abu se

Let's be fair guys - and honest !

War is always terrible, but equally, there are always two sides to a story.

I don't normally get involved in these sort of debates, but this one eyed nonsense go my dander up - sorry mods.

[Octane]

Thanks for saying that, Paul. You put it eloquently.

I hope your son returns home safely, Marty.

H

[Astro_Bot]

@Paul: I think you misunderstand me completely and have been far too quick to criticise.

I spent 23 years serving my country including both Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm pretty sure I know more about this than you do.


The perpetrators were prosecuted. In contrast, the Taliban, who cut the heads off unarmed prisoners and video tape it, are just a barrel of laughs.

[casstony]

It's such a shame that area of Asia is mired in violence. They could earn a lot of foriegn income from tourism if it was a safe place to go, not to mention the obvious benefits of keeping one's legs and loved ones.

[PCH]

@RG - I'm sorry if my remark/s caused offence. Certainly that wasn't my intention.

I could say more but in truth it probably wouldn't help, and would stray further from Marty's post.

Moving on ....

@Tony - coming back from the airport once quite recently, I had an Afghan taxi driver who talked to me at length about how beautiful Kabul and other cities used to be. From his descriptions of his homeland in the various seasons, he could have been talking about any well known European city. Trees, flowers, gardens, architecture, culture..... and so on. The sort of place you'd be happy to live in. A far cry from how it is now I imagine.

Tony, while these places have something we want, usually oil, but minerals or gold or whatever, there will never be peace.

Cheers,
Paul

[clive milne]

I suspect that if the troops on the ground came to understand the actual reasons they are putting their lives at risk, there would be no more war and more than one politician serving life in prison.

[Baddad]

Hi All,

Thanks for the kind thoughts. Yes, its a touchy kind of subject. You people have your feelings on the subject. I appreciate the thoughts and control you have shown.

Unfortunately one of the IIS members has lost a family member in the actual crash that was reported.

I leave it to him to give details. It goes to show how close this war is to us all.

I'll have a chat with the above referred to member.

Cheers all and thanks again for the response.

[Gem]

They probably have a better understanding than we do. They are there.

[clive milne]

Geopolitics is determined behind closed doors. The only truth to be found in the streets of kabul is how pointless and self defeating our current actions (there) are.

If you dig deep enough in to modern history you will find that the reasons for our recent wars are seldom the same as what is told to our troops, reported in the media, taught in schools or believed by the general public.... Afghanistan and Iraq are no exceptions here.

I think it is worth highlighting Iraq in particular simply because the the trail of political malfeasance is in the public record for anyone with the inclination to discover for themselves.

It is a much dirtier game than most people presume.

[Gem]

I was not saying the politicians have it right (or wrong). I was merely stating that our troops in the field probably aren't blind political pawns. They can see what is going on better than us. A course of action can be right, even if it was not successful.

[Baddad]

The entire situation of the Afghanistan conflict hinges on the following.
I support the thinking behind it. Although it is not as simple as it seems when put this way but it will give some insight as to the reasoning.

Afghanistan and neighbouring nations provide cover for the Taliban and various terrorist groups. I am not saying that these nations support the activities, just that the terrorists are able to gain support and shelter.

Terrorist targeted nations prefer to fight the terrorists on their turf rather than have innocent citizens be exposed to terrorist bombing etc.

Take the violence to their homes rather than our homes.

This was the initial reasoning. Unfortunately people have lost sight of that and are now mocking the politicians. They have a short memory.

How would these people react to a terrorist attack on their homes?

Without entering into the complexities of the war, this is the simplest way to justify what is happening. Therefore to withdraw troops appears to be a bad move.

Cheers

[rat156]

Glad to hear that your son is OK Marty.

I have just heard on the news that four Aussies have been hurt in an IED explosion, no names yet. I have friends over there who work in the Engineers regiment that supply the bomb techs for most of the Aus infantry. I don't know if any of them are hurt.

There is a comms blackout whenever anything like this happens until the family are informed. Never stops me from trying to get info though.

As to the people here who claim to know what all the wars are "really" about, safe and sound in their lounge rooms in one of the safest countries in the world, to be honest, you really have no clue at all. Do you really think that the Chief of the Defence Force would allow his troops to fight and die for spurious reasons? They have all been intelligent men who value their personnel more than their carreer, if the fight wasn't just or worth it they would have resigned in protest. Sometimes you just have to trust that some people know more that you do, or what you can read on the Internet.

Cheers
Stuart

[Hans Tucker]

Whilst any commander that has any ounce of leadership has the interests of his subordinates in mind he does what he is told to do. In the case of the Chief of Defence Force (CDF) he does what the government of the day tells him to do because he is elected into the position by government. He has the option to step down if he has a conflict of interest but that is career suicide and I don't recall any CDF whom has elected to step down from the position by choice. The men & women of the ADF serve the government of the day and carry out government policy, they don't have a choice on when or how they serve. We have true professionals in the ADF which are well trained and well respected by other serving countries in the MEAO and we can be proud of each and every one of them even if we don't agree with our countries involvement in these conflicts. The ADF is making a difference but whether the change lasts depends on the resolve of the people in these regions. Understand one area of the conflict, the Taliban opposes freedoms we take for granted, deprives women of their civil rights like education and medical care. That is worth fighting against. Yes, I understand there are other political motives at play in these conflicts.

[Zhou]

The chief of the defence force is answerable to the Minister of Defence and the Prime Minister. The various heads of the defence forces don't have to like or agree with the descision to go to war, their job is not policy but implimentation. If you join the defence force you are expected to follow orders, period.

Everyone has their own opinions about the war in Afghanistan. There is no doubt about it that the Taliban are the scum of the Earth and to eliminate their hate filled, anti-female, anti-freedom ideology would not only greatly benifit Afghanistan but also the world at large. However, the Taliban were around before 911 and the world generally didnt give two hoots about their oppression then.

Maybe the war is about politics, maybe it is about "liberating" Afghanistan, maybe it is about preventing terrorism, who knows? But one thing I do know is the Aussies in Afghanistan are doing a stirling job and regardless of what we might think of the motives of the pollies who started the conflict the work of our troops is professional and something to be proud of.

Peace :) Mick ex RAAF

[2stroke]

Thats great news he is safe and well :) My cuzz is over there doing her 3rd term comms and my main worry is her being captured and raped to death. I always try and remind myself that there trained to handle these situations, though it doesn't always help. Having your son fly a moving bus must play havoc with your mind though, don't watch black hawk down lol

Anyhow thankgod this has being a campaign with very low causalities for our side :) Lets hope they pull our people out of "the world's crap hole" and get them back home safely. Lol there got to be more lead in that crap-hole place then sand these days after the years of fighting, maybe those scumbags will die of lead poisoning by the literal sense.

[Gem]

Agreed!
Grant ex RAAF

[Baddad]

Another Blackhawk down.

This time 2 Australians. Crashed while attempting to land.

Also 3 Australians shot dead in an unrelated incident. Members of 6RAR.

That's 5 in 24 hours. Very unfortunate and depressing to hear.

[Nico13]

Not good at all mate and yes very depressing sad news, news you just don't want to hear.

[Colin_Fraser]

Time to bring them home NOW.
How many more deaths will occur before it is realised this is a war we cannot win.
USSR were there nine years before they went broke and gave up. What makes our government think we can do better.

[casstony]

Yes, it's unfortunate that the passive majority is oppressed by a bunch of misogynistic, violent fanatics but they can only be defeated from within - not much point us being there in the long run. We might as well spend our time/money in local regions where we can actually achieve something and where our soldiers are not psychologically damaged.

[icytailmark]

its time to pack up and leave you cant help people that dont want to be helped

[PCH]

Help ?? - I don't think we're over there trying to help them Mark. More like helping ourselves to whatever it is they've got that we want... isn't that normally how it works ?

[Hans Tucker]

It is very disappointing to read comments like this from people whom clearly don't understand to conflict. What exactly are we helping ourselves to in Afghanistan. This country doesn't have any resources like oil but it is infected with islamic fundamentalism which is a cancer. The Army are building schools, hospitals and mosques (yes mosques, not christian churches). They are trying to get the people to help themselves whilst fighting an unrelenting enemy which has the liberty to attack, retreat and cower in a country that claims to aid the west but clearly aligns with the Taliban. There are a few defence members whom are also IIS members...maybe they should boycot IIS entirely as the cause they are fighting for is not in favour with the IIS community. By the way...how many of you whom are calling for the withdraw of troops have actually written to your member of parliment, the opposition leader or the Prime Minister ???????????

[clive milne]

Stuart, I have resisted responding to your ill informed and inflammatory comments for some time.... but it's a bit like trying to ignore a splinter under your skin.

Anyway, you clearly are not aware of a few historical facts such as;

Australia:
The resignation of Andrew Wilke.
Andrew was the situation analyst at ONA (Office of National Assessments - Australia's equivalent of the CIA) His brief was to analyse the threats posed to Australia, specifically from the Middle East. He had access to all the intelligence provided by the US and was the man who was responsible for advising the federal government on their significance.

In his own words, the Howard government completely misrepresented the facts to the Australian people and drove us in to a war unnecessarily. He goes on to say that he "was witness to some of the greatest malfeasance in this countries history".

In the UK; Carne Ross served as the UK delegation's expert on the Middle East at the United Nations, he resigned from his post some time later (2004) for similar reasons. He argued that available alternatives to war were ignored. He also intimates that the Butler commission was little more than a sham designed to absolve the Blair government of its culpability.

In the U.S. ;
An interesting insight in to the Iraq conflict might be gained by the study of the actions of Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame scandal. Plame was a CIA NOC, publicly outed by Libby.... not because her intel' was in any way faulty. She was exposed because the information she provided proved that the claims being made to justify war were actually fabrications designed to get the American people in to a war for political reasons.

Libby should have swung from a rope for treason but he was given an official pardon instead... Plame's career was destroyed and a valuable field asset was lost.

In Afghanistan;
The Taliban had offered Bin Laden to the US prior to 9/11... and several times after. The US declined.


Pakistan;
The Taliban offer up Bin Laden for trial in Pakistan...
The move is blocked by the ISI.

Iran;
Tehran offers full logistical, financial military and intelligence support to the US to help defeat Al Qaeda and their sponsors in Afghanistan. Iran masses troops on the Afghan border in an attempt to stop militants crossing.
In response, Donald Rumsfeld steps in to block any possibility of cooperation, a baseless (and false) claim is leaked to the media implicating Iran in lending material support to the terrorists.
Iran is put on the Axis of Evil list.

This is all in the public record.... I would hope that if you wish to contest any of this, you don't just post a denial and leave me with the burden of doing your research for you.

~c

[casstony]

There is a party one can vote for that has been calling for withdrawal for some time. While I wouldn't want them running the country alone they are useful in applying pressure to the major parties.

[Zhou]

The Australian army shouldn't build either mosques or Christian churches.

I concur, our forces are doing their best in a dire situation. However, unless the economic situation picks up for the majority of Afghans how can you win their heart and minds? Life truly sucked under the Taliban but it was at least predictable.

Initially I was in favour of the Afghan invasion (I have always been against the Iraq war) but sadly history seems to be repeating it self in Afghanistan. As I mentioned previously, unless a significant proportion of the Afghan population experiences an improvement in their lives why should they be more supportive of us (allies forces) than the Taliban. I personally loathe the Taliban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taliban_beating_woman_in_publi c_RAWA.jpg (http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taliban_beating_woman_in_publi c_RAWA.jpg) and their repressive ideology (and theology) but I am not an Afghani trying to survive in the poorest county in Asia.

As for a boycot of IIS, GET REAL! why shouldn't members of this forum have the choice to exercise free speech within the rules of IIS. I am an ex-defence force member, I am proud to say that, but why should I and other free people be compelled to toe a particular government line?

Factoid*: the literacy rate in Afghanistan is only 28% and for females it is perhaps as low as 10%.


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan

[clive milne]

I think everyone here can make the distinction between between support for the troops versus support for an un-winnable war.

Incidentally... the Afghanistan war was never sanctioned by the United Nations, and is actually in contravention of the UN charter... so technically illegal.

[Hans Tucker]

I spent 21 years with the Airforce and I still work in Defence and I converse with current serving members that have done rotation in the MEAO, in particular Afghanistan and they don't view their time in the theatre is a waste of effort and they are the one putting their lives on the line. They are the members whom should forego reading this thread. By all means exercise your so called freedom of speech but make sure you write your member of parliment...or does your interest only extend to voicing your views on an open forum.

[Zhou]

I don't recall saying that their time in Afghanistan is a waste of time. The troops that operate in Afghanistan have both my highest respect and my blessings.

Why? because you said so?

I will! I value the freedoms of being an Australian, freedoms I can't always exercise living here in China. It would be awsome if the Afghani poplulation had the same freedoms that many of us take for granted in Australia.

Trust me, I have :thumbsup:

[Hans Tucker]

The same United Nations that allowed women and children to be massacred in Rowanda...the same United Nations that did nothing when peacekeepers were massacred in Somalia...the same United Nations that stands by and allows the atrocities to continue in Syria. The United Nations....when you want endless debate while people die...get the UN involved. Sorry but the UN's lack of action do not read well on a resume.

[clive milne]

Well... the purpose of due process (and international law) is to at least try and prevent mistakes and unwarranted aggression from countries using specious pretext such as was the case with Afghanistan and Iraq. The West's influence in these countries in the last decade has not exactly covered us with glory, irrespective of the good intentions of the poor *******s in the ADF on the ground.

[Zhou]

Sadly we live in a very flawed world. There would be nothing better than all of us in this global village getting along in harmony. Alas, that is not going to happen overnight.

I personally think this is a constructive thread, fellow Aussies are dying in a conflict that we may agree or disagree with but after today's tragedy we need to get our grief of our chest.

My personal wish is for the people of Afganistan to enjoy the benifits of society that we do in our own country(s), but I also wish that our troops return safe and healthy.

[rat156]

So you make claims, say that they're on public record, but don't provide references, then claim I have a burden of doing research?

What a great way of conducting a debate, state whatever you want, claim its on public record then say go look it up for yourself. Then post a comment saying that I should not do exactly what you have done.

Well, I might just do that, because most of what you've posted is either irrelevant or erroneous.

But maybe not, you probably won't believe anything I say, you've already started to insult me personally, one of the reasons I left the forum for a while.

Bye again...

Stuart

[bartman]

Ease up guys........we are all fighting the same war eh?, not each other????????

[troypiggo]

Considering the relatively small sample size of IIS members posting in this thread and all of the differing points of view, and every one of them convinced they're the one that's "right", it's easy to see how on a global scale international conflict escalates into the very scenario you're all debating.

I wonder if one person can step into this thread, and provide a solution that can make all of you see the same point of view and be satisfied. That's what you're expecting Afghanistan/US/UN/Australia etc to be able to do.

[bartman]

I agree Troy,,,,,,,, we will be heading into ( and I sincerely hope we do......) a Star Trek-esque scenario........if that person/body can do so.
Maybe not in our lifetime.....but hey

[iceman]

+1 Troy! Well said.

[casstony]

A few points:

There's a big difference between verbal disagreement and picking up a weapon.

Many of us express opinions knowing historically that we are wrong much of the time.

A large part of the population is in agreement that we should not have engaged in guerilla/urban warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan; as casualties mount and results are not forthcoming the numbers calling for withdrawal will increase. It seems that the lessons of history are only remembered for a short time before mistakes are repeated again.

[Gem]

My thoughts go out to the families affected by yesterday's tragedy. May they rest in peace. They did this country proud. They were helping in a near impossible situation.

Hard to believe it is now ten years since I was there.

Lest we forget.

[troypiggo]

I would put it to you that verbal disagreements can often be the starting point or trigger to violence/bashing/murder on a local level (weapons often used), and if you put that on a global scale (throwing political, religious, and national economical interests into the mix) the sparking of a war could be projected as the equivalent.

PS - I meant to mention to the OP Marty my relief that his son is OK, and my sorrow for those that have lost their lives on either side of any conflict, no matter which war, time or place.

My apologies for taking part in a tangent from the original intent of this thread.

[rat156]

Yes, as we have another Black Hawk down.

I have a lot of friends over there on duty at present. I can find no news identifying either of the two soldiers killed in the helicopter crash. Most of my mates work in SOTG, I have heard mixed reports that they were SAS or SO, neither of which is a great prospect as I have worked with both.

The worst part about all this is the sense of relief that you feel when you don't know the person killed, I hate it, but somehow it's always there. Unfortunately one of the soldiers killed in the Green on Blue was a relative of a friend. It's been a bad day.

Lest We Forget

Stuart

[Baddad]

Thanks Rat 156 and Thanks Troy,

Both of you have made an effort to bring this thread back to what it was intended to be.

I don't have any bad feelings of the "tangent" that the discussions went. It is an emotion stiring subject. We all have a single goal we aim for. How it is acheived is the difference and consequently generates the differing opinions.

Lets hope that the soldiers over there are given some morale boosting issues soon. They do their job so we can sit here and discuss it freely.

Cheers

[clive milne]

Marty,
I highly recommend reading 'Axis Of Deceit' by Andrew Wilkie, the (former) Senior Transnational Issues Analyst at the Office of National Assessments.

You could most likely find it in your local library (There is a copy in Fremantle fwiw)

It will lend some important historical context which I think is worth applying to Iran.

You know what they say about those who don't learn from history.

[casstony]

Have they been given an impossible task?

[TrevorW]

Why are the US so intent in meddling in other countries affairs and we get dragged along for the ride. (WW1 and WWII excluded as they are worldwide ramifications that would have affected us.)

History has shown over and over that a population will eventually rise against a Government if they are suppressed and desperate enough. Generally the good outweigh the bad in any society and they will strive to any length to return to a stable and safe environment to raise their children in.

I feel sorry for our soldiers who willingly follow the orders of our Govt because of some treaty, fighting for the rights of others on foreign soil, losing their lives when the final outcome has little or no affect on the country they came from.

I may be naive about the reasons behind our involvement or the history of the country they are fighting in but as Tony said have they been given an impossible task considering the length of time we have been there.

[Baddad]

Yes. Impossible successful outcome is very close to what it may be.
History has not taught some politicians anything. However, an earlier point I made: By taking the fight to them, the conflict is on their ground and reduces the terrorism activities on our home ground. If the Taliban was not being harrassed at home they would have open season on the Western World.

Before the US went to Afghanistan the general opinion was that the "enemy" deserved to be punished. The US was looked upon as heros.
Now as we all are aware the tables have turned because of the cost of lives.

I feel its a long way off being resolved and for the US to pull out would be a mistake that many countries would suffer the consequences.

I received an email again from my son. Here's a snip of what he wrote:

The worst part is the Aussies were staying overnight at the FOB on their way passing through when the ANA opened fire. He got away.
So far, 'green-on-blue' violence has accounted for 15% of US service member deaths since the start of the war, and the percentage is much higher recently. I don't know the Australian numbers.

FOB = forward operating base
ANA = Afghan National Army

I heard on radio that 7 of 38 Australians have been killed by enemy action. I don't know exactly what was meant, nor how the other fatalities happened.

Cheers

[Hans Tucker]

It means that 7 of the total 38 Aussie casualties were killed by ANA soldiers (so called green on blue killings)..people our Army are training to defend their country once we pull out of the region. Clearly they are trying to distinguish those deaths that happended by so called in country allies to the cause, including the two special forces soldiers that died in the Blackhawk crash, and those that were killed by the actual enemy (e.g. direct action or IED).

[Baddad]

Thanks Hans.

I assumed something similar. Just that I did not hear the full report.

Cheers