Next webcam (after the ToUcam)

[iceman]

Hi guys.

I'm investigating two possible alternatives for a new capture device (after the ToUcam).

The logical choice would be one of the DMK's, which aren't too bad on the pocket, or if you want to spend extra, the DX or LU which are serious bucks.

However in the "budget" range, i'm looking at:

a) Mintron b/w camera

This is like what Steve Massey uses, and produces amazing images. Cometcatcher and now Mick Pinner also use them.

This should give:
1) Monochrome RGB imaging (full resolution in each colour plane, ability to focus each colour plane)
2) High frame rate no compression

Extra requirements would be:
1) Colour filter wheel (manual (cheaper) or auto (expensive!))
2) Colour filters

So a bit of extra cost.


b) V-Gear TalkCam Tracer CCD (http://www.vgear.com/products/list1.asp?ProdID=AMVG1-010-068&SUB_NUM=2057)

This is a colour webcam, but it appears to be true USB2, so it would definitely be a step up from the ToUcam, as it uses the same chip as the ToUcam (SONY ICX098BQ).

I've been in touch with an Australian supplier of these, and i'm trying to arrange a unit to be sent to me to test it out. At only AU$150 it's priced the same as the ToUcam so would be a huge step up if it turns out to be true USB2 (I've asked them, and they've said it is). They've also confirmed the lens can be removed.

The only other requirement is a 1.25" adapter, so maybe it uses the same threadsize as the ToUcam, but if it doesn't, i'll use a film cannister for now and if it turns out to be good, i'll get Steve Mogg to make one up for me.


Anyway i'll let you know how I go as I get more info on both of these units.

[GrampianStars]

G'day Ice
whats a "Mintron b/w camera" ?

[iceman]

Hi Robert.

The Mintron website is here: http://www.mintron.com/

I'm not sure exactly what camera would be the best one yet - i'm trying to get some ideas off Steve Massey and hope that cometcatcher and Mick P might chime in here as well.

I'd prefer not to answer your moonlite questions in this thread (offtopic) - can you start another one in the Equip forum?

[GrampianStars]

As an alternative to Mintron guys have used the "Astrovid 1/2"- StellaCam II B&W" with a separate remote control box for slow shutter speed [$800US]
Take a look here

http://www.astrovid.com/product_images/139.jpg

Shevill Mathers in Tasmania is getting great results with one here
http://www.apstas.com/astrotas/mathers/AstroVideo.htm

[h0ughy]

Mike there is a camera being sold at the local computer suppliers has that is true USB2, has low light functions and is a true 1.3mp, and its only $69 in a metal frame. I will try to get more information about it and find out what chip is on it.

[iceman]

Link me up h0ughy..

It's probably a CMOS chip or something, but who knows, maybe we'll be lucky.

[Dennis]

Hi Mike

Have you discounted the Lumenera range due to their +$1000 cost? I have seen this range of camera used by some of the top Lunar & Planetary imagers.

http://www.astrovid.com/products.php?cat=175

Cheers

Dennis

[iceman]

Yeh Dennis, just too expensive.. I mentioned them in my first post:


Bird uses the DX (DragonFly Express), Paolo and others use the LU (Lumenera), and Chris Go and some others use the DMK. All 3 of those would be fantastic, but are serious $$$ ($1k-$2k+).

If you can get a $150 replacement for the ToUcam which is USB2, the ability to capture many more frames (at 15fps or 30fps) in a short period, without data compression, it should be a definite step up for most objects.

[Robert_T]

Hey Mike, I've been investigating the DMK 21Af04? Uses the B&W version of the Toucam Sony chip... costs about $420euro. This is a low noise version of the one that CHris Go and a few other use so costs a tad more. I have the full details at work if you're interested.

I for one though would be VERY keen to learn about any true USB2 colour webcam using the Toucam chip!!!! So keep us posted.

cheers

[Robert_T]

any updates Mike?

[netwolf]

Houghy,

If the one your talking about is this one
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/New-1-3MP-USB-2-0-Webcam-NIGHT-VISION-Digital-Camera_W0QQitemZ5868331779QQcategor yZ4616QQcmdZViewItem

Then stay away from it.. NIGHT vision on this means that in low ligt the bright white LED's come on. I bought one of these (maybe an older model) last year around october and returned it next day. Problem was in a my room with light on the bright almost blinding led come on because sensor is above the camera. And does not detect light that is not directly above it.
Also the one i bought was most definetly CMOS. At work it perfomed well enought for webcam use, in a bright fluro over head light setup. At home it was to bright to look at.

Note i did buy it to try for astro use but i suspected the bright LED's might kill any chance of that.

Note that many of these 1.3mp webcams are 1.3mp for still images and 640x480 for video.
This one is from Swann, but its CMOS.
http://www.swann.com.au/show_item.php?item=176


Regards

[iceman]

No, that's not the one netwolf.. looks.. interesting that one does :)

Well I have an update about the V-Gear listed in the first post.. After they responded initially saying "no, sorry we don't loan units to the public, policy blah blah", I urged them to reconsider.. Told them that if the camera is as good as it looks on paper, there will be a big market in the amateur astronomy community for a low cost planetary imaging camera.

Told them about IceInSpace, and that they would receive a lot of exposure from it.

It seemed to do the trick - they agreed to send me their test unit for 14 days for a trial. So now I have to work out some scientific methods of testing the ToUcam and the V-Gear side by side.

Will hopefully receive it by the end of the week.

and will then start praying for clear skies and good seeing!

[netwolf]

Ok cost for this is 149$ from GDB International in ACT, it seems only they have em for the present.

http://www.gdbint.com.au/Product.aspx?pID=281&ptype=c

[iceman]

yeh, I got the test unit today.

Unfortuantely the driver I downloaded for it doesn't work on either the laptop or the desktop :(

Gotta try and email them now.

[davidpretorius]

14 - 1 days to go, i hope they extend it whilst you get the drivers.

weather gods, tassie is open for whatever you can throw at it, but do not go near mikes house you hear!!!

[davidpretorius]

6 lenses, I hope they come out easy for an adapter!!!

[Striker]

On ya Mike..use the power of the forum to your benifit...I do...lol

[iceman]

rofl Tony :P

I rang them up, turns out they (accidently) sent me a Talkcam HD, instead of the Tracer CCD. Basically the same, except it uses a CMOS chip instead of a CCD chip.

But i've got it working on both desktop and laptop, and it uses RGB24 codec with each frame 900k uncompressed. It works under K3CCDTools.

The initial tests at 10 and 15fps dropped heaps of frames, but my laptop was copying 1gig to my desktop at the time, so hopefully it just couldn't keep up. I'll test again later at 10 and 15fps, hopefully it won't drop frames.

If it does, I need to get a (fast) external USB2 harddrive to capture onto.

They're going to send me a Tracer CCD on Tuesday, so I'll get to test both of them side by side by side with the ToUcam.

[[1ponders]]

Exciting times Mike :thumbsup:

[iceman]

Still drops frames at 10 and 15fps :( At 10fps, it still captures more frames than at 5fps, so it's worth trying until I get an external HDD.

I'll try a defrag and see then.

[iceman]

Defrag didn't help :( 19% dropped frames @ 10fps, 45% dropped frames at 15fps.

Anyway i'll try it tonight, sky is clear. Hope the seeing is good. About to go take the scope out to cool down.

I need a bigger, faster, external HD.

[iceman]

Well I got it out under the stars last night, sky was clear, seeing wasn't too bad.

Unfortunately the CMOS chip just doesn't cut it for astronomical use. There are plenty of controls for hue, saturation, contrast, sharpness, - but none for gain and the exposure control doesn't make any difference. The only "gain" setting is "low light", which boosts the image but it's still very dim.

To give you an example, I was lined up with Saturn.. without "low light" mode off, I could see NOTHING on the k3ccdtools preview screen. With low light on, I got the planet but the white level was only at 70. Very dim, and very colourless. I captured some avi's anyway, some at 10fps (@50% dropped frames) and some at 5fps (no dropped frames). I'll process them later if I get a chance, got a busy day today.

I captured with the ToUcam at the same time, and as usual it performed well. Transparency was shocking so the gain was very high, but they might turn out ok. Will process them later.

So, good news:
- ToUcam 1.25" adapter screws right in
- True USB2
- RGB24 uncompressed data
- That's all.

Bad News:
- Not enough controls over gain, exposure
- CMOS chip not sensitive enough
- Every time you move the scope to realign, the "low light" mode goes black and you can't see anything until you've stopped moving.

So, this isn't the camera for us.

Remember though, this was the Talkcam HD - not the one I was expecting.

The Talkcam Tracer CCD (which is the one they'll send next week) has the same chip as the ToUcam, and the driver controls should therefore be roughly the same.

Can't wait for that one!

[davidpretorius]

thanks ice!

[iceman]

I got the Tracer CCD yesterday. Haven't had a chance to test it under the sky yet (cloudy last night/this morning), but I've played indoors.

I don't drop frames, even at 15fps with this USB2 camera. I don't know why the TalkCam HD was dropping frames :shrug: So far so good.

It all looks good, the 1.25" adapter screws right in, it works under K3CCDtools, however..
It still doesn't have manual controls for shutter or gain. It's only got standard gamma/brightness/sharpness controls.
If I use "PCCAM" (like AMCAP), I can also adjust white balance to some presets, but I still can't manually modify the red/blue levels. In PCCAM I also get an additional "Exposure" setting, which appears to be maybe like shutter speed. But that control doesn't appear under K3CCDTools.

I tried ICCapture, no extra controls there.

Very frustrating - the camera appears to be exactly what we need with chip, USB2, cost, screw-in adapter, but they've locked off the controls that would make it exceptional.

It's not the same chipset as the ToUcam either (even though it has the same Sony CCD chip) - the macro's don't work on it.

I'll try it under the sky when I get a chance, but without the ability to adjust gain it's going to be limited, especially in varying transparency. I'll send an email and see if they can supply a new driver that unlocks those controls.

I'm guessing that because it's a "consumer webcam", they just don't give access to them because they're generally not needed for your "MSN/Yahoo" chats.

[davidpretorius]

thanks ice for breaking em in!!

how frustrating, great that it is zinging along at 10 fps, but it seems to be one frustration after another. thanks for sticking with it

[[1ponders]]

Mike have you tried it with WcCtrl so see if you can access the gain etc that way?

[iceman]

Yep, I tried that. Wcctrl only lets you access what the driver allows. The "gain/exposure/white balance" settings are greyed out.

I tried the WDM drivers and the DirectShow drivers - the DirectShow drivers (in use by PCCAM and Virtual Dub capture) display the additional "Exposure" setting (which is like shutter). But none of them allow modification of gain.