Looking for a new netbook or laptop for DSO imaging

[Paul Haese]

Hi all,

just seeking some advice on what some of you think regarding a netbook or Laptop for DSO imaging.

This unit is going into the observatory and will remain there with images being downloaded to a portable hard drive at the end of the night.

I need to have 3 USB ports with something around 250 gig HD and around 1 gig of RAM. I think this will suit for running MaximDL (optional guide software), Sky6 and Tpoint.

Any suggestions would be welcomed and if you could include why you think this it would be appreciated.

Look forward to your thoughts.

[renormalised]

Depends on how much you want to spend, but JB HiFi have some good ones going for a song. Little Toshiba with 500GB HD, 2GB RAM for $493. Or, an Acer with 3GB RAM, 500GB HD, i5 processor for $677. Grab yourself a 2TB portable HD as well. Want something with a bit of capacity. Toshiba and Acer are reliable computers and that's what you need for the observatory. Something you can trust not to go BSOD every 5 minutes or complain about the workload its under. The extra RAM is going to give you some breathing space in this regard. I would also have it well locked up, just in case.

[Paul Haese]

Thanks Carl, those are in the price range, with better features than I had seen else where too. I have got plenty of external drives too. Just got another TB today. I ahve a three x back storage policy. ie nothing is backed up unless you have it backed up three times. Usually I do a CD, DVD and on HD. More recently though all on HD x 3.

With regard to netbooks I have taken a bit of a look at HN and Office works so far, will take long look at JB now.:thumbsup:

[drylander]

A handy tip as well. Toshiba laptops while in use dislike coffee spilt on the keyboard.:eyepop:
so watch the coffee while observing.........:D
Don't ask how I know this :rofl:
Pete

[marc4darkskies]

Well, I'm actually thinking of swearing off giving advice on hardware & software! ;)

So, all I'll mention is what I have. A Dell XPS 15, Win7 Pro 64 bit, I7 quad core, 6Gb memory, 750G drive but only two USBs. I use one USB for the camera and mount (powered hub and active cables) and the other for Robofocus and Maxdome.

I went for a fairly high spec because I upgraded to TheSkyX and CCDAP5 and didn't want things to grind to a halt with CPU overload. Last night was the first time I did a full observatory test and it came through with flying colours. I also want to run CS5 and CCDStack on it (both of these use multi threading I believe).

The only real advice I'd give Paul is to plan for the future (= quad core and plenty of RAM - I don't think 1G is enough frankly).

Cheers, Marcus

[renormalised]

Sheesh, Marcus, that's bigger than most desktops!!!!.

It's crazy...it's only because MS just want to make bloatware OSes that run bloatware apps, that everything is getting bigger and bigger, more overly complicated, but the actual productivity (speed etc) isn't really increasing. You've got computers and software now that are 5-10 times the size that do exactly the same amount of processing, relatively speaking, that simpler computers and software were doing just as well 5-10 years ago.

[marc4darkskies]

Bigger than most desktops?!! Same amount of processing?! Hardly! More than the OS, it is nice to be able to process 20 x 20Mb sub-exposures in CCDStack without it falling over and not wait for 10 minutes for a single 50 iteration deconvolution! 64 bit CS5 just screams along now too! I.e. I can do 5-10 times more processing than my old WinXP single core lappy or desktop! My old lappy was starting to groan handling everything that goes on during an observing session too. Anyway, bigger and faster computers are a fact of life like death and taxes!

[multiweb]

Gotta agree with Marcus. CCD Stack also flies with very large stacks. PS 64bits is great and doing mosaic I just love the extra RAM. I have 24GB right now and use sometime up to 15GB. Production is definitely increased with processing. I haven't got a fast laptop on the field for guiding and others so I'm wondering if a new fast system would increase and improve USB transfer? What do you guys reckon?

[asimov]

Recommending a particular laptop is like weather & seeing predictions; You just wouldn't do it if you want some egg on the face..

Plenty of deals going on this time of year, so shop around. I just picked up a nice Toshy Satellite P750 quad core/6 GIG RAM for just under 1K from the Office Works.

Gotta have my USB3 for shoving big files up the pipe to an external HD.

[marc4darkskies]

Get a lappy with an eSATA port :D

[michaellxv]

If this is a permanent installation in the observatory is there any reason you have ruled out a desktop? You could get a small case and still get more bang for your buck. No need to put a monitor or keyboard on it once its setup and running.

[Paul Haese]

No problem Marcus. Not your fault that the software did not work on my system. So don't feel bad.

I was thinking that I could use a netbook and it would be cheap, but your point about future proofing is well made and I have thought a little along those lines.

Yes more grunt would be nicer. Currently have dual core, 4 gig of RAM and that can take a little time to process out files. I have run across problems with CCDstack before once I get a lot of subs to stack. I will keep this in mind.



This could well be an option Michael. It is for a permanent installation and all I need do really is use a external drive for downloading files. Also something to consider.

Great tips all, and I will think more along the lines presented.:thumbsup:

[Quark]

Hi Paul, certainly a topical subject. I have had good service from my last two Toshiba laptops. Each one was the highest spec available at the time of purchase in an effort to future proof them.

This morning ordered a new Toshiba X770 notebook. It has a 17.3" HD display, the same as my previous Toshiba.

i7 quad core 2.0 Ghz processor, 8 Gb Ram, 1.25 Tb HDD made up of a 500 Gb hybrid drive + a 750 Gb HDD. My last Toshiba had 2 x 320Gb drives and 4 Gb of Ram. The X770 has 1 USB3 port and 3 USB2 ports, also an expansion port for my Unibrain Firecard 800 for the Flea3.

I am now using 2Tb USB3 external hard drives to dump my data on. The Toshiba should allow my Flea3 to run at its full speed potential.

Good luck.
Cheers
Trevor

[renormalised]

It is...go and have a look at the average desktop they sell. Most are i3's and 6GB of RAM is hardly standard...it's usually 1-3GB.

Your only handling more data now because you have more powerful data acquisition devices that send you more data. It would be natural for the older system you had to be groaning under the weight. It wasn't meant to handle that much data. But in relative terms, the amount of data vs processing power is still very close to being the same. In real terms, there has been no improvement...only everything has gotten bigger. I agree, bigger and faster computers are a fact of life. However, the bigger the software packages have become, the more bloated they are and the less elegant their programming. Half of the abilities inherent in CS5 (or any other program) you've probably never used. Or ever will use. Unless they're playing games (and the GPU does most of the work anyway) there's no need for most people to own the computer that they do. They're under utilised for what they're doing in the home.

In our case, as astronomers and piccie takers, then, no they're not under used.

[renormalised]

USB transfer will occur only at the speed the bus is able to handle. Your biggest bottleneck is your HD. It will also be your RAM if you have to do any processing, but less so than the HD. So, what you need is a large, fast HD and a decent amount of RAM that runs at a fast bus speed.

[renormalised]

Good idea:)

[Paul Haese]

Thanks guys.

Trev, if I was going to buy another lappy for my planetary work I would need to consider RAM, USB3 and certainly the expansion slot. Good suggestions.

Carl I reckon you make a good point here but maybe not what you intended. This machine will be collecting data only, no processing and the data collection is quite slow. So maybe something not totally top end??

[marc4darkskies]

Sure, but c'mon Carl - we're talking astrophotography here. We're talking about folks that need grunt and power to process images and drive half a dozen bits of kit and as many applications in real time without a hiccup and with headroom to spare. The average read-your-email and browse-the-web ma & pa user is not relevant to the OP or my comments.



Mate, I'm actually not sure the point you're trying to make :confused2: unless it's just MS bashing? In any case I repeat, I'm only considering astrophotography needs, nothing else.

[Paul Haese]

Ok getting close on my selection. Dell has great prices at present i7, 7200rpm HD and 4 gig standard, but upgradeable for under a 1000. Next question. What about operating system? 64 or 32 bit? Will all the software for guiding, and capture work under 64 bit or should I just get 32bit win 7?

[renormalised]

That's what I was saying too, Paul. No need for a flashy machine here.

What I was saying about Marcus's monster masher was when you compare the machines from a few years back to ones now, the relative amount of work they do is the same, but the real productivity increases just aren't there, when you listen to all the hype and look at it objectively. Relatively speaking, the machines from back then could do the same jobs as the ones are doing now, but because the amount of data we collect now is greater, and the software that we run on them has become more bloated, the machines have to consequently become more powerful to handle the workload.

[renormalised]

Paul isn't using this computer he wants to buy for astrophotography. He's only using it for data collection. You don't need a top spec job to do menial work.

With your work, your biggest bottleneck is the HD and the bus speed it runs at and communicates with the computer. Your RAM, no matter how much you have, can't handle all that processing concurrently anyway, that's why your computer has a swap file on the HD to dump page memory to. If that file isn't large or fast enough, everything slows down. I'd suggest that if you really want to see things zing along, it's best to have multiple HD's in your computer and have one setup exclusively as the swap file, another to store data and the main drive just for programs and the OS. If you use a laptop, then you're restricted to one fast drive, as your external drives will be much slower.

But the more RAM you do have, the quicker things will also get done.




The point I was making is that most software, including MS's, is overbloated with "functionality" choices that most will never use, and that costs accordingly. For astrophotography, you need fairly powerful software in much of the cases you use it for, but most of your power you need is in the computer. Even some of the astrophotography software could be said to be bloatware because of some of the (actually) superfluous functionality built into it. For instance, do you really need any photometric analysis routines in your software at all?? Fourier analysis routines etc etc...just to take and process piccies??

[multiweb]

Cool. Is it fair to assume that a laptop with a faster CPU/Bus/RAM will allow me to have more devices sharing the same USB line with less conflicts both in term of data transfer and power for the devices?

[marc4darkskies]

I almost went 32 bit but in a what-the-heck moment took the plunge and went 64 bit. It's all working and I've had no serious issues to date. But that of course doesn't mean it will work for you! :lol: I guess you could simply say I am proof that it does work!

TheSkyX
CCDSoft
CCDAutopilot V4 and now V5
Focusmax driving Robofocus
Automadome
USB->serial converters (Belkin)
CCDStack & CCDIS

Interestingly, with the exception of the USB->Serial converter drivers and CCDIS64, none of these are native 64 bit apps.

BTW, the only gotcha with my Dell was that it doesn't have a VGA or DVI port. It has a mini DisplayPort. I had to buy an adaptor cable for when I want to hook up a second monitor.

[renormalised]

That's a good buy. You don't need top spec, but you still need something capable enough to handle the data you gather.

Some will say go 64Bit, but you have to remember whether there are drivers for your OS that will handle all the software under 64Bit. You also have to consider data throughput. 64Bit data takes no more time to process than 32Bit data with an OS that can handle it. But, it also takes up more storage space and needs powerful chips and onboard buses to handle it. That's why these 64Bit systems are so high spec. But, if the drivers are there for your software and it's data throughput and manipulation you're looking for, then 64Bit's the go.

Though, I'd be inclined to use 32Bit simply because you can get by collecting the data just as easily with a 32Bit system without all the overheads needed to run 64Bit, since you're not going to be doing anything like processor intensive work. The cameras you're using are only 32bit and the USB bus is only a 32bit bus. Your computer would be sitting there dumb idle for most of the time waiting for your data collection devices to talk to it. If all you're doing is running, say, PhD and MaximDL to guide and capture a 32Bit system could handle that with no problems.

[marc4darkskies]

Well no, my biggest bottleneck was actually processor capacity and memory!! Swap files will never be fast enough, especially for real time apps, unless they are on a solid state device, and even that is no guarantee. A multi-core processor like mine is capable of threading across 8 CPUs and 64 bits means I can use all of my 6G memory for those processors (cf: 3G max in Win 32 I think?). While not quite enough to prevent swap file use, 6G will get close if I don't start up other memory hungry apps (eg CCDStack, Photoshop etc) while imaging and assuming the apps I'm running aren't too old so that they rely on a swap file being present for normal operation.

So the objective is really to minimise the use of a swap file with a suitably powerful processor and an adequate amount of RAM. Some say you can eliminate the swap file altogether with 12G or more of memory in Win7 64 bit machine but that's probably unwise.



:question: ... Bloatware: A term used to describe software that is amply endowed with functionality to suit the vast majority of users. Cf: Waifware: Software that has enough functionality to satisfy only the needs of an elite few, ignoring the needs of most users ... but it runs really fast and lean! :)

[renormalised]

You're running all your work from your laptop, so you're going to need something pretty powerful. But you don't have to run image processing and such concurrently with everything else. That would chew up resources like it's going out of fashion!!!. If you're trying to run everything in memory, then it's no wonder you need the grunt, otherwise you'd have to rely on your swap file to handle the work. That's where the bottleneck would occur. You'd need at least 10000rpm sata drives to handle it, and big ones at that. Or solid state storage drives. I can see the $$$ ticking over even as we speak!!!

Eliminating the swap file would be something I wouldn't recommend, even if it was possible to do so with 12G of memory. There will always be processes which will consume all or most of your available memory.



Your far better off to have an app that will do the work required and be fast and efficient than to have some memory hogging app with 1001 functions, all seeing and dancing, most of which you'll never use.

[renormalised]

That's correct, but it has its limits.

[Paul Haese]

Just to report back I bought a HP netbook for the task. It came with 500gig HD, 1gig of memory (but could do with some more), dual core atom intel processor and three USB ports. I will have to investigate a decent USB hub for it so that I can put robofocus on the scopes.

So far it has worked but there as usual are some quirky things about win 7 as in every edition they have brought out. Most things worked straight off the bat but my Orion SSAG required 64 bit drivers on a 32 bit system to work :shrug:, which I find really odd, since that driver should not work.

As a matter of opinion I don't see that Win 7 is any better than Vista really. Vista for me was stable, albeit it did not like CCDsoft 5 for some reason.

Anyway, for now this is working nicely and collecting data. It does not process any data, just collects what I want.

[Kal]

I think you made the right choice Paul, for data collection you don;t need much grunt and the dual core netbook will be more than up to the task.




lol Carl, you make me laugh! I guess blueray on a HD isn't any better than an old VCR with your argument! I mean, data amount has increased but the "real work" that they do is the same?! I mean, you can still watch a movie on both! (I know which one I'd prefer to watch a movie on though ;) )