Help On Choosing A Premium 14mm Eye Piece.

[Suzy]

Hi everyone,

I need your help.:help:


I’m after a premium eyepiece in a 14mm focal length. Bare in mind that I have a 10 inch dob which is a fast scope at 4.7. Therefore I would prefer if possible to draw on the experience of the users of the same.

My requirements are that the fov is at least 68 degrees (65 will be a consideration), and that the fov remains tac sharp to the edges. I’m training to be a serious visual observer you see, :astron:so I need every bit of detail I can squeeze out of an eyepiece.;):lol: My budget is no more than $300 which I should be able to achieve second hand or new overseas.

My choice of ep was initially a Pentax XW14, but have since heard from someone that has the same scope as mine, that the fov at around 20 deg suffers a lot of field curvature.
I know many are probably going to suggest a Nagler, but with a type 1, I had plenty of trouble seeing through it due to kidney beaning (perhaps it’s the way I view, don’t know), so am weary :question: Am still open, I guess.


Many thanks and I look forward to your valued responses. :D


Kind regards,
Suzy.

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Suzy,

I have a Ba'ader Hyperion 13mm eyepiece which I picked up here on Ice Trade for a steal of around $120. Its a 68 degree EP and I love it to bits.

Slight curvature I would say using my F5 Dob, but really not that noticeable. Quality and fit/finish is beautiful, almost comparible to my Pentax XF 8.5mm. Its also extremely robust and solid. No fragile bits to break off. Its colour is also very warm to look through. Pleasant views that are easy on the eye. FOV and eye relief is quite good and immersive as well.

The real beauty of this eyepiece comes down to its versatility.... You can remove the front lens element, which is also the 1.25" EP barrel to create a 26mm 2" barrel EP!!! Thats TWO focal lengths in one! Awesome.

It also has T ring mounts on it as well as rubber eyecup and comes in a sexy leatherette type pouch.

New price on Andrews is $199 each and I would highly recommend this FL EP as I have one and its the first EP to go into the 8" or the 12" scopes.

Its a cracker and not too expensive. Save the extra cash for the next purchase....such as a cake or pressy for me for being so helpful ;)

Worth a look!

Cheers

Chris

[MikeyB]

Two suggestions, Suzy - both superb eyepieces I believe, although neither is exactly what you ask for, but then your spec is quite a big ask:

13mm Vixen LVW (http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-015D) (a little more than you want to pay)

14mm Televue Radian (https://www.bintelshop.com.au/Product.aspx?ID=5243) (easily affordable at present)

[Suzy]

Chris: Many thanks for your input on the Baader. But have you tried it on a 10 inch dob at 4.7?

Mikey: I'm a very open to the LVW as I currently own the 22mm. I just find the eye cup (even folded down) a bit uncomfortable on my eye socket (I'm sure it's just the shape of my eye socket). Tac sharp to the edge, brilliant pin point stars. I love the views it delivers. Just was hoping for more than 65deg at a 14mm f/length. I can easily afford an LVW overseas :D. It will be the one I fall back on if nothing else suits.
Regarding the Radians, they are only 60 degrees. Many thanks Mikey for your input.

[Suzy]

I will thanks everyone for their help with a pressy at the end of this thread with my famous, knock out, authentic satay recipe. How's that?! :D:D:D
I like to pretend I'm a bit of a Nigella in the kitchen at times (just need her body working for me :rolleyes: ).:lol:

[erick]

19mm Panoptic, second hand? Maybe fl a bit longer than you want. $215 new at Bintel with the current TV sale.

[koputai]

13mm Nagler Type 6 !!!

The Type 6's are easier to look through than the older versions. They are a good wide field, they are very small and light, and ON SPECIAL at the moment for $263 brand spanking new! You will never get a new Nagler cheaper.

The 13mm Type 6 is a lovely eyepiece.

Cheers,
Jason.

[Suzy]

Hi Erick, yep, just a tad too long as my 22 LVW is too close to it. But thank you anyway Eric. Appreciate your help.


Hmmmm :confuse3:
Come to think of it, I remember when you bought it how happy you were, Jason ;) I think I may have even delighted in your enthusiasm on your thread. :lol:
I realise Naglers perform well on fast scopes. I would assume my scope would pass the test :question: Are you the same dob user as I to give a critical opinion? :D I can't see your signature while i'm doing this reply :mad2: I like that price :) I'll wait to hear from others on this ep. though. But I thank you for your very helpful input :)

[mercedes_sl1970]

Hi

Another option is the Denkmeir 14mm. I've found it works rather well in an 8" f6 dob. There's a review here: http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=2087

Andrew

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Suzy,

Not sure if there is much difference between my 12" F5 and your 10" F4.7??

Anyhoo, I just noticed that AEC sells Pentax XF 14mm on their website, my 8.5mm XF cost me about $230 a while back so you might want to pencil in calling AEC and see what they can do the XF14 for?

Pound for pound, the XF nails the Baader, I just suggested the Baader because it has a wider ocular and is physically bigger in the barrel and for me with my Fred Flinstone hands, less likely to drop than the more expensive XF. I was put on to the XF when I was looking for a quality sub 10mm EP and considering the Radians etc.

But, as a favourite EP, the versatility, solidity and size of the Baader does it for me, the views are 99% of the XF, which is an excellent EP in its own right, just not too many people have them so I am not sure if I will get any support here. Certainly Televues have a reputation of being the bees knees, so I doubt you can go wrong there with the suggestions offered so far.

Mmmmm satay! Now that's tasty! yeah!

Cheers for now,

Chris

[Suzy]

Andrew, many thanks for that link - it was well written. Interesting that the Denkmeir is tested against the Pentax XW, Nagler T6 & Ethos. More interesting, that the XW came last because it failed in the field curvature test. Ethos being the winner. I did forget that the televues tended to have a warmer colour. For this reason, I had backed away from them previously as I tend to prefer neutral.

Chris, from my previous research when buying my LVW, it was said that the Baaders were trying to imitate the LVW's and are indeed a worthy contender. It would be interesting to hear input from others as well on the Baaders at the same f/ratio as my scope. A brand new Baader I think sells for $250 compared to $450 for the LVW (tho overseas, same price as Baader). If I had to chose between either, I would go with the LVW though; purley because I own one and am familiar with it's performance.

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Suzy,

$199 for a spanking new Baader (Andrews Comms)

Or, you could buy 6 for a lazy $1140!

Cheers

Chris

[ausastronomer]

Hi Suzy,

I own a "boxfull" of premium eyepieces. In the 12mm to 15mm focal length range I own the following:- 12mm UO HD ortho, 12mm Nagler T4, 13mm ETHOS, 14mm Pentax XW. I have also used a 12mm Radian, 12mm Nagler T2, 13mm Nagler T1, 13mm Nagler T6, 13mm Vixen LVW, 13mm Baader Hyperion, 13mm Orion Stratus, 14mm Meade UWA S4000, 14mm Meade UWA Series 5000, 14mm Denkmeier, 14mm TV Radian and a 15mm TV Panoptic.

Of all of those that I own and have used I would buy the 14mm Denkmeier, each and every time. It excels in every criterion and measure of optical performance and has no negatives. It is optically superb and has excellent eye relief and comfort. I don't need to sell my eyepieces and start again but if I did I would buy the 14mm Denk without hesitation. It has a 65 deg AFOV which suits me perfectly, as does the 70 degrees of the pentax Xw's. $300 will go very close to getting you a new one.

http://www.denkmeier.com/pdf/Eyepieces.pdf

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=2087

They are always advertised as a pair for binoviewing, but they can be purchased individually from just about all dealers.

Cheers,
John B

[mercedes_sl1970]

Hi Suzy - I meant to say in my post that if you search Cloudynights for the Denk 14mm you'll find quite a few threads. The general consensus tends to reflect John B's comments. I only have the Denk at the 14mm focal length hence I didn't offer any comparisons. It is sharp on axis and virtually across the field, has a very neutral colour rendition. I also find that 65 (-70) AFOV suits me perfectly.

Good luck.

Andrew

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Suzy,

Listen, Bugger the Pentax and the Denk......

Buy a Televue 100 degree FOV 13mm from Bintel for $559 while you can.

Yeah its more expensive by miles, but you will fall into it and never want to come out. 20% off is too hard to pass up.

Simple.

Cheers

Chris

[AG Hybrid]

*cough* Explore Scientific 14mm 82 Degree's N2 - $99US sale at the moment *cough*

No but seriously. Great eyepiece, about half price at the moment, performs really well in my 12". And I find at a dark sky site, the contrast is good enough that using an OIII filter on m46 to see the plantary nebula in the cluster didnt really provide a noticeable improvement. Very well correct. Very flat field. Pin point stars to the edge. Theres also no kidney beaning or black out. About 15 mm of eye relief so thats decent too. Just a champion of a eyepiece. As some describe on CN. 9/10ths performance of a nagler but 1/3rd the price.

Did I mention the half price sale at the moment? With the current exchange rate its about the same in AU. With the money you save over the other premium premium brands, you can buy another telescope. :D

Or umm, more eyepieces. If comparing to the price of an ethos, maybe a car?

[Paddy]

Wouldn't argue with John B about eyepieces and haven't tried a Denk, but from my experience a 13mm Nagler type 4 is a great ep. Loved it in my GSO 12" and still do in my f4.9 16". I do prefer 82 deg AFOV to 65. And no kidney beaning with this ep.

[dannat]

forget the baader & get the denk -i can't believe i didn't pick up one when frontier had em on special for 199:eyepop: a yr or 2 ago. (though i am anti-TV)

[Suzy]

Thank you all for your input so far. I have been doing a lot reading on everything all of you'll have suggested. :thanx:

John B, I feel priveledged to have you comment on my thread - thank you. I have taken notice & listened to your advice in the past which is why I ended up with my XW & LVW. :D

I realise of course I won't get everything I'm after in the one eye piece and will have to make a compromise somewhere- whether it be fov or eye relief. Logic tells me eye relief is more important than fov. Ultimately, one needs comfort at the eyepiece. My eyes are slowly going long sighted and for that reason, my other premium eye pieces have 20mm eye relief to factor this in for the future when I may need to have my glasses on.

I would also prefer a 14mm focal length. I think the 13mm is too close to my 10mm. I also want to barlow down to 7mm, as I find this focal lenghth hits the sweet spot on planets before conditions start to interfere.

Here is what I've summarised so far...

Denkmeir
I have sent Frontier Optics an email for a price of the Denk. I have no clue where to look for them overseas :shrug: or how much they are there. They seem the same specs as the LVW (20mm eye relief, 65 fov). However, the Denks come in a 14mm (which is what I'm after), and the LVW in a 13mm.

Explore Scientific
900 g ? Seriously?
So I weighed my heaviest ep - the XW. It comes in at 403g. I then weighed it with the barlow on (as I often used it barlowed without any problem). That comes in totaled at 800g. I can manage the extra 100g - (just!) without it being a major issue on my 10" dob. However, there is no way known I would even dream of throwing a barlow on. That would make its total weight 1kg 300g. Plain ridiculous :screwy:. And there goes my non usable focal length of 7mm.:rolleyes: Plus, it has 9 elements, whoa that's a lot of glass isn't it?!

Nagler T/6 13mm
The 13mm of eye relief concerns me. Also the CN review says With the 20% sale at the moment they are $268 from Bintel. Making them cheaper than buying overseas and paying freight.

I would welcome some comments on the eye relief, particularly people that are wearing glasses at this ep, and also with respect to what CN said in the review (regarding fov).

Baader Hyperion 13mm
Chris has been the only one that has given any input on this. I just could never see the Baader's as being classed as premium. I wonder if I'm an eyepiece snob :question:

And to throw another eye piece into the works..
I find my 22mm Vixen LVW sharp to the edges with pin point stars. A big ask at that f/length. I would imagine if it performs this well at 22mm, 13mm should be just as good.

BUT... it seems I can only get a 14mm in the Denk.

:question: Please answer....
Is 13mm too close to my 10mm? My next length is 22mm. Or not much difference between 14 to 13. Help. :confused2: I'm thinking I need the 14mm.
I want to use this f/length to search for galaxies and planetary nebs. And when the 10mm is affected by seeing (on stars).

I am incredibly grateful to everyones help so far. Thank you. :)

[Paddy]

I use a 13 and 9 mm nagler and find the difference between them very useful. I don't find them too close and I suspect that 1mm less gap won't be noticeable. Regarding glasses increasing long-sightedness should not be an issue as the focuser of your scope compensates. You should only need glasses at the eyepiece if you have an astigmatism. If you don't already have an astigmatic eye you're not likely to develop one so you are unlikely to ever need glasses for observing. My eyes are progressively becoming long sighted and it makes no difference.

[erick]

getting closer :lol: :D

OK, I think 14mm and stay lightweight. Denk it would seem to be (I haven't looked through one, but you have very weighty approvals here from those that know.)

[mercedes_sl1970]

Suzy - you can also get the Denkmeier eyepieces directly from the company: https://www.denkmeier.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.displ ay&category_ID=2&CFID=29072095&CFTOKEN=65735773

Andrew

PS. They are very good to deal with and very helpful.

[ausastronomer]

Hi Suzy,

Good to hear you are thinking logically and not "wishfully". IMO this is an extremely important consideration. Astigmatism is the major concern with your own eye and the need for long eye relief eyepieces is more critical in longer focal length eyepieces because of the larger exit pupil they create. This gets worse as you get older. I am very happy with eyepieces having an AFOV of 60 deg to 70 deg and 20mm of eye relief.



I would rate the 14mm Denkmeier about 10% better in optical performance than the 13mm Vixen LVW which itself is outstanding. The 14mm Denk is one of the very best eyepieces I have used at any focal length at any price.



The "useable" eye relief of Televue eyepieces is actually less than what is stated. I believe the reason for this is that the eye relief is measured from the surface of the eye lens and not from the top of the eye lens housing recess. You can never get your eyeball right onto the eye lens.

The 13mm Nagler T6 is a fine eyepiece but is not useable with glasses on in any way shape or form.



It's not a premium eyepiece, it's a reasonable eyepiece. Good value for money? Yes! A premium eyepiece it's not. In terms of optical performance it comes up a fair way short of the 14mm Denk, 13mm Vixen LVW, 14mm Pentax XW and the 13mm Nagler T6. And the 14mm TV Radian for that matter.



You could do a lot worse than the 13mm Vixen LVW and it would be my clear second choice after the 14mm Denk.



Well not quite, but for all practical intent you're 100% correct. You can get the Nikon NAV SW 14mm, which I haven't used but heard glowing reports on, for well over $700. You can also get the 14mm Pentax XW, but it really needs a paracorr to perform at its best in a newtonian, which in itself is a $500 excercise. You can get a 14mm TV Radian which is a pretty fair eyepiece, but only 60 deg AFOV. You can also get the 14mm S5000 Meade UWA which some will tell you is a premium eyepiece, but IMO is ordinary.



14mm is IMO the best option, but the 13mm will also work very well. There is still enough gap down to the 10mm. Don't let this consideration scare you out of buying the 13mm Vixen LVW, if you can't source a 14mm Denkmeier.

I think Daniel at Frontier Optics has stopped bringing these in because he wasn't selling enough. Not sure if he still brings anything in from Denkmeier. He has recently got married and is putting a lot less time into Frontier Optics than he used to.

It's likely you will have to source the 14mm Denkmeier from the US. I am pretty sure you can order directly from Denkmeier. I already gave you the link to their website. There are also a few dealers in the US who sell them and ship to Australia including OPTCORP.

Cheers,
John B

[wavelandscott]

Sorry to be late to the party...

Based on what you have described as your wish list I agree whole heartedly with those advocating for the Denk 14 mm.

I have both a pair of 14 mm Denks (for Binoviewing) and a 13 T6 Nagler.

In several respects the Denks are as good or better than the Nagler (eye relief in particular)...other than the differences in the AFOV and overall size and weight (which the Nagler wins), the Denk might be the preferred of the two on many targets and situations.

They are both fine eyepieces! But if you are set on 14 mm (which is fine) the Denks in my opinion will be hard to beat.

[Zubenel]

Hi Suzzy ,

Many nights have been spent at Ron's peering into my T4 12mm Nag.
I think its my favourite eye piece and close to your 14mm spec. I have a F5.1 Dob. but have no experience with the other brands . You are welcome to test it at Ron's .. :)

[Suzy]

Zubenel, thank you for the kind offer to try your Nagler at Ron's. :)
I'd love to have a look through it one day there. However, 12mm I feel is too close to my existing 10mm. I'm trying to shorten the gap I have between my 10mm and 22mm. And I am in need of a 7mm focal length, which I can barlow the 14mm down to.

Scott, thank you so much for your welcomed input.
I remember you helping me when I was looking for a good 5mm (which everyone thankfully talked me into the 10). I always like to have your input on eye pieces so I am very glad you saw my thread.:D If I do say so myself, that thread is one of the best I've seen todate. It's highly informative for anyone looking for a good quality 10mm eyepiece, and I had some very experienced people comment on it. Naurally, the ep went over the budget of $200 though :rolleyes:.
Here it is for anyone reading this that wants to take a look at it and learn from it. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=59484&highlight=5mm+%24200
I do hope people will be able learn from this very informative thread also.;)

John, what can I say! That was a highly informative respose (as usual) and I thank you for taking the time to help me again. In all honesty, I look up to you for your wisdom and advice on eyepieces. If you told me to walk one of my eyepieces to the bin as its rubbish, I'm pretty sure I'd listen to you. :lol:
I did have a good read on the Denk link in your first post but I couldn't find where they were located and the price of $558 confused me as I didn't know the currency or if they were the set or individual.

Erick, spot on about staying with the 14mm.;)

Andrew, I truly appreciate the info you have given me in those links, I have read it all. You have helped me lots! ;):)

Paddy, I was hoping you would comment as well, as you are a great visual observer.
In response to wearing glasses, unfortunately I do suffer from astigmatism. I don't need glasses at the ep yet, but I need to factor this in. :sadeyes: My premium eyepieces need to last as long as I do. :lol: Right from the start I made a decision not throw money buying and trying eyepieces, because at the end of all the failures, I would have been able to get one really decent one. So as with my 10, and 22 and now my 14, I chose to draw on the experiences of the experienced and try and get it right the first time.

Unless there's anything else anyone would like to bring to the discussion, my decision seems to be pretty clear cut.
First choice will be the Denk, and my second choice will be another loved and trusted VixenLVW.

Just curious :question:
The black winged eye cups on the Denk- are they for bino viewing only or are they used at the eyepiece. They look like they cradle the eye socket nicely.

As promised, my killer satay recipe will be posted here very soon. :computer:

:thanks:

[Dave47tuc]

Suzy, John has given you perfect advice you cant go wrong with any of his choices. I have owned the 14 XW and LVW 13 both super eyepieces. I have also looked through the Denk.14 and its superb.

But one of my all time favourite eyepieces is the 13 LVW why? not fully sure, I just liked how comfortable it was to look into, very sharp view and a nice field, that about sums it up.

Basically you cant go wrong with any of them. Really its your budget that will sway you.

happy eyepiece buying. :)

[erick]

drool..................!!!

[mercedes_sl1970]

"The black winged eye cups on the Denk- are they for bino viewing only or are they used at the eyepiece. They look like they cradle the eye socket nicely."

Suzy - the winged eyecups are there, I guess, mainly for binoviewing
but they can be easily rotated or folded down. I quite like them in mono-viewing as well - good with positioning and keeping out side glare.

Good luck with your choice.

Andrew

[Starkler]

If you are chasing the best possible views and want a tac sharp wide fov at under f5, then a paracorr is an absolute must IMHO.




If you have a properly adjusted paracorr, the field curvature in the Pentaxs (not to mention some naglers) becomes a non issue.

[Suzy]

When I was out observing last night using my favorite eyepiece -the XW10- and enjoying the comfort and fov so much, I felt saddened that I wasn't going to get the same again in the 14. I have to think long and hard whether to put up with field curviture on this or not (as a compromise).

Dave: Have you tried the XW14 on a fast scope (under 5?) I'd be interested to hear your view points. If you have used this ep on a fast scope, how much did the field curvature (stars bloating about 20-25% on edge of fov) annoy you? Thank you for your input.

John B: If I may bother you again, can I direct the same question to you as I have asked Dave? Thanks John.

Geoff: Hello! You helped me so much on my 5mm thread, and so pleased to see you return to help me yet again! Thank you.
Parracors unfortunately cost around $500 (yikes), that on top of buying a premium ep would be *gasp* too much money. Apparently (from the Cloudy Nights review), the Denks & Vixen LVW seem to be sharp to the edge, so I'm guessing it's a do-able thing. The tests were carried out on fast scopes.

Andrew: Thankyou for clarifying the eye cups on the Denks. for me.

[astro744]

The Paracorr for you is only $343.00 at Bintel. (PVL-2008 - You do not need the Type II).

Field curvature is worse as you get older as your eye cannot adapt as quickly or as much. I cannot stand field curvature as I feel it is a waste of apparent and therefore true field). I have not used a Pentax 14 XW at all and therefore not in the same telescope that you have (which is important when judging) so I cannot comment on it specifically. However, I have used a 30/80mm eyepiece that basically has the outer 30% severly curved in my 10" Newt. (The 31mm Nagler fixed that!).

Note a severly curved field will show fuzzy stars at the edge. Galaxies are already fuzzy so they basically disappear. Get an eyepiece that will give you the most useful field and in your case that may be the 14mm Radian, 13mm Nagler or 12mm Nagler. Note the 12mm Bagler has almost the same field stop diameter as the 13mm Nagler (ie; almost the same true field). The 12NT4 has a large eye lens and is very 'immersive'. At only $215.00 at Bintel, the 14mm Radian will give you sharp views to the very edge; you will still get details on planets as they float out of view.

Note a Paracorr will help with any eyepiece to eliminate coma as this is a function of the primary mirror. Field curvature is reduced too considerably if it is present. Not sure how the Paracorr works with the Pentax.

Just a note on reviews: Some may actually see severe field curvature with a given eyepiece and call it such. Some may see mild field curvature and call it such. Some may see mild field curvature and call it severe. You wont really know until you've seen it yourself and whether only severe or mild annoys you.

I think if you want 14mm a Radian is the way to go especially since it is now on sale. Using any eyepiece with a Paracorr can get annoying in itself as you have to keep adjusting the settings but it sure does clean the views up nicely. The amount of coma seen in the Radian will be very small if at all and you will be pleased with the view. If you really want a wider AFOV then the 12mm or 13mm Nagler. (I prefer the 12 but others prefer the 13). Note the 12mm field stop is out a long way so in 2" mode a Tele Vue EBX-2120 extension is advisable. The 12NT4 does have a 1.25"/2" barrel and in 1.25" mode it is racked in almost all the way. If you cannot rack in to get focus in 1.25" mode you will need the extension and rack out in 2" mode.

Whatever you choose, enjoy!

[Dave47tuc]

Hi Suzy,
The scope I was using the 14 XW was the Sky Watcher 12" Dob. Field curvature does not bother me like some. I did however have a Paracorr in that scope. But even without the Paracorr it was not a bother to me.

What I like in a eyepiece most is how easy it is to look into it. I put the LVW ahead of the XW but that's me.
The biggest thing with eyepieces is there a very individual thing. What some people like others may not.
Point being John doesn't rate the old Meade UWA 14 mm.
But I do, and use it often in friends big scopes.

It makes no difference either way the end result is viewing the heavens and its fantastic we have choices.

The end of the day you cant go wrong with any of the eyepieces you have been advised on. But As you have a 22 LVW and use it my thoughts is to get the 13 mm LVW it may suit you best.

When using a 14 XW compared to the LVW I could hardly see any difference, very slight difference in magnification. You can not go wrong with either. But the LVW is cheaper so that would sway me.

Clear skies.

Dave. :)

[erick]

Paracorr - watch the second hand market or put out a "Wanted". I managed to get one of the older versions (PCV-2000 green lettering) second hand and it is doing just what I want. It was well under the new price of the recent version (PVL-2008) and the new Type II.

More will come on the market as people upgrade to faster scopes and want the new Paracorr Type II.

[ausastronomer]

Hi Suzy,

Here is a post I replied to on Cloudy Nights a few days ago which addressed this specific issue



The 14mm Pentax XW at F5 is good, it has all the niceties of the XW line but the field curvature is evident without a paracorr.

Let me reminisce over my experince the first time I ever used the 14mm Denkmeier. John Huntsberger one of our regular Texan visitors to Coonabarabran was observing open clusters with me in my 10"/F5 newt at Coonabarabran about 7 years ago. I had the 14mm Pentax XW in the focuser as we toured through open clusters in Carina, Vela, Crux and Centaurus. I thought the 14mm XW was giving very nice views. John asked if we could substitute one of "his" eyepieces he had brought over with him. As is the correct protocol with the visitors, I of course said "sure". Muttering to myself under my breath I thought, "probably a piece of Chinese cr_p". John went inside and bought out this black funny looking thing, which on appearance only reinforced my suspicions of its far east origins. It was dark and I didnt get a good look at it as I stuck it in the focuser by "feel". How wrong I was. It took me all of about 2 seconds to realise the eyepiece wasn't a far east clone of anything. I spent about a minute sucking in the view and was "gobsmacked". The only words that could come out of my mouth were "Hol_ Sh_t". Subsequent discussions with John H revealed the origins of the eyepiece as a US made Denkmeier 14mm; and not a budget eyepiece in any way shape or form. I was forever impressed. The improvement it showed over the non paracorred Pentax 14mm was very significant. It has all the positive on axis attributes of the 14mm Pentax including comfort, sharpness, contrast and cool colour tone, but the EOF performance is noticeably improved. The Denk is tack sharp right to the very EOF at F5.



These winged eye cups are totally removable if you wish. You can also replace them with a normal "round" rubber eyecup available for about $5 each.

[ausastronomer]

Hi Dave,

I think that's a typo. I think you meant to say "John doesn't rate the old Meade UWA 14mm"?

Let me clarify that a tad.

When Mike Salway and I conducted this review about 6 years ago

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/42-245-0-0-1-0.html

I had good opportunity to compare the strengths of all of these eyepieces as we A/B'ed them all on multiple targets and target types. The 14mm S4000 Meade provided very nice views and was tack sharp to the EOF in the 10"/F5 scope. It really did have a lovely flat field. Where it came up way short for mine was in contrast/light throughput. The view of 47 Tuc (NGC 104) under pretty good conditions was telling. I used the 14mm S4000 Meade first and thought the view very nice. I then switched to the 13mm Nagler T6 which showed quite a lot more stars in the core than the 14mm S4000 Meade. Clearly, it had better contrast and throughput than the 14mm S4000 Meade. I then switched to the 14mm Pentax XW and it showed infinitely more stars in the core than the 13mm Nagler T6. The improvement going from the Nagler to the Pentax was greater than when going from the Meade to the Nagler. Going from the Meade to the Pentax was like chalk and cheese. You could have been forgiven for thinking the Meade and Pentax were vastly different focal lengths. That having been said the EOF (outer 20%) in the Pentax was a lot "softer" than the other two, but the majority of the stars weren't out there at the 14mm focal length. Another test which brought the 14mm S4000 Meade up way short, was on HN40, the multiple star complex at the centre of M20 (Triffid Nebula). In the 14mm Pentax XW, on axis, I was able to resolve the A,B and C stars easily. I could not get D with this focal length. In the 13mm Nagler T6 I got A and B and very fleetingly C (in and out). In the 14mm S4000 Meade I struggled to split A and B. I subsequently put the 14mm Pentax XW back in the focuser to confirm this wasn't caused by deteriorating seeing conditions. On larger and dimmer diffuse targets like M42, Eta Carina, Tarantula Nebula etc the Meade was an excellent performer. However, on those other specific targets it came up way short for mine. That having been said, if you didn't have something better right beside you to directly compare, you would probably be very happy with the views.

The 14mm Denk for mine has all the niceties of the 14mm Pentax XW, with a perfectly flat field. I am still kickin' myself that I didn't snap one up when Daniel was clearing them out for $199.

Then I would have had:- 12mm Nagler T4, 13mm ETHOS, 14mm Pentax XW and the 14mm Denk. Not forgetting of course the 10mm Pentax XW and the17mm Nagler T4. Notwithstanding the great deal, I just couldn't justify another eyepiece at this focal length and I didn't want to break the set of XW's, as I had a paracorr anyway.

Cheers,
John B

[Dave47tuc]

Hi John,
Apologies it was a typo,and its great people see eyepieces differently.
But the main thing is Suzy buys the eyepiece she likes and will use and she wont go wrong with the choices given.
All the best.:thumbsup:
Dave.

I fixed the typo.:rolleyes:

[Suzy]

Wow, what a great report and story John - many thanks. Must thank DavTuc too, because you mentioned Meade in the first place. ;)

The older UWA Meade's (series 4000) did seem to perform better from what others have said, and Marki will agree too. I got the 6.7mm 5000 UWA, lucky I only paid $50 for it (figured I wouldn't have too much to lose). On my scope it's a piece of junk- I've kept it only because it'll be an eye piece I will let kids use (along with the ones that came with the scope). ;) Chromatic abberation a good 30% I would say, and so white and bright - Jupiter didn't give me much colour or detail at all. Threw the Pentax back on, and I had to pick my jaw off the floor with the difference.

Dave: Many thanks for your input.
It was interesting to hear your views on the XW14, especially against the LVW. The reverse is true with me, I find the XW easier to look into than the LVW (tho I love it all the same). I also find - and last night is a good example of this - the LVW eye cup cuts into my eye socket. I fold down the eye cup as having them on is actually worse. Six hours looking into this eye piece last night and my eye socket bone still hurts as I've obviously bruised the bone (there was also a big dark mark on it after I'd finished observing). My eye socket is bony :rolleyes:. Then, I put my cheap Orion Expanse 15mm with nice eye cups, and whoa the relief. The views annoyed me too much, so ended swapping back to the LVW and sufferring more pain. :screwy: :lol: For this reason, I would not have preferred the Vixen (if possible, but not closed off from it either, because at the end of the day, it is an excellent performer).

Astro744: Thank you for Your valued and appreciated input also. I agree with you what you said and I guess it depends on how much time one spends looking at the edge- I do a lot (searching for objects and manually star hopping), so to me, f/curv. is an important factor (I could probably put up with about 10%) It'd make my job that much harder looking through bloated stars thru 20% of the ep. So I guess I would pick it and call it severe.

The Radians are off my radar, as they only have 60 fov, and I'm after a minimum of 65. For me, having an object as long as possible in the ep is important so I can concentrate on observing instead of constantly nudging the dob. Thank you though for the suggestion. I do hear they are a great eye piece.

Erick: What do you think I'm made of money:help: Parracorr can stay in the shop on the shelf, I'm flat out getting my eyepiece man.:screwy::lol: I'm having a friendly dig. :D Thank you for your money spending input though.:P:lol:

Frontier Optics got back to me with a price on the Denks. $330 + $12 postage. Do-able, as this was the budget I'd set aside to originally get the XW from the U.S. I need to go back and check what the Denk. site was offering them at, as I now forget.

Regarding the Explore Scientific. After re-looking at those, I see the 900g weight is for the 2 inch 100deg. The 85 degree ones only weigh 255g.
John, I wish you had some experience with these - would have loved to have had your input. As Adrian pointed out, they are on sale for half price (1 1/4 inch in 85 deg) at only $99, till the 31st of March! :eyepop: They look such a good & comfy eye piece. I must admit, I thought seriously about these. But not enough feedback on this to base my decision on buying them. I would have bought two at that price. :D

[Waxing_Gibbous]

If you go for the XW (and you should go for ANYTHING by now :)), check the prices at www.kkohki.com (http://www.kkohki.com).
I found them to be about 15% cheaper than ordering from the U.S., though that was when the AU$ was around .89US$
Peter

[space oddity]

I find my 13mm Ethos to be a rather superb piece of glass. Yes it is heavy, yes it is expensive. Maybe you could borrow one for the weekend. I have found that most eyepieces work differently for each type of scope and for different eyes. This is where star parties come in handy to test out the glasses , cocktail and otherwise.

[ausastronomer]

Hi Suzy,

I haven't used this version. I have used the 14mm 100 deg version. It's a pretty fair eyepiece optically. Probably only 5% behind the 13mm ETHOS for a lot less money. Unfortunately its the size and weight of a Hippopotamus and has shorter eye relief. Not an eyepiece I will ever own. Dunno where the 82 deg version fits.



That's exactly where I would head and that's a pretty good price, if you can cover the cost, budget wise. It used to be a good bit cheaper. Maybe the world has realised how good an eyepiece this is and the manufacturer is "squeezing the lemon". Currently they are $US329 plus postage, individually, from anywhere in the US so Daniel has done you a good deal. I would be jumping on that tomorrow. It's an eyepiece you will never ever want to sell. I rate it on the same pedestal as my 10mm Pentax XW.

Cheers,
John B

[wavelandscott]

I agree, Daniel was always nice to deal with and that price looks good (if it fits in your budget)

It is a keeper eyepiece.

[Suzy]

As promised, here is that knockout Satay recipe (posted in recipes for star parties thread) http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=693591#post693591

Thanks everyone once again for all your help, I'm very grateful. I'm sure many others would have learned from this thread as well.

I have ordered and paid for the Denkenmeir eye piece yesterday and should get delivery within a week.
Daniel at Frontier Optics said that this isn't a sale price, but could only guarantee this price for two weeks (that was a week ago). He has placed an order for a batch of them, so if anyone is interested, now would be the time. I'm guessing he has placed an order for a batch of them because many on here have ordered some :question: So who else ordered, I'm curious :question: Are you one of them Liz (you ep addict you) :question: :lol:

[CometGuy]

Suzy -guilty as charged, but you already knew that :)

[astroron]

I went against the grain and bought a 17mm Type 4 Nagler :P;):lol:
But then I already have a 13mm Nagler so a 14mm Denk was too close for comfort:thumbsup:

[Liz]

Heehee ... I am an EP addict, and freely admit it. :face: Look forward to hearing what you think Suzy. ;)

[Suzy]

:lol: I know this review has been a long time coming- wow I just realised by the date of the last post how overdue it is!
So here it is...

I love it!!!!! :love:
The stars aren't as pin point as my XW or LVW- could it be the astigmatism it's picking up from my eyes that my other eyepieces don't?- I don't know. But that's okay- because everything else about it I absolutely love!!!! Nice black background- amazing contrast! It seems to have a slightly darker background than my XW10mm. It has a very shallow cup and with the 20 degree eye relief, it means you can see the entire fov without having to get that close into the ep. Comfort wise, personally, I rate this even more comfy than the XW (in itself a very comfy ep). Seems to suffer the effects of dew a lot quicker than my XW's or LVW though- I wonder if this is because it has a very short eye cup :question:.
You steered me (yet again!) very well John in pointing me towards this ep.
Oh, I nearly forget- the advertised fov is supposed to be 65deg- I would say it leans more towards 68 deg. :question:

[ausastronomer]

Hi Suzy,

I don't think this is likely to be the case.

Generally your own eyes astigmatism, if not corrected with glasses or a dioptrix, will get worse as the exit pupil gets larger. This means assuming the same telescope, the longer the eyepiece focal length the more noticeable your own eyes astigmatism becomes. On that basis assuming you are using both eyepieces in the same scope, your 22mm Vixen LVW would show more astigmatism and star flaring than the 14mm Denkmeier. I don't believe this is what you are seeing?

Things then become a mystery. I have used 3 different samples of the 14mm Denkmeier in newtonians as fast as F4.5, and found them all to give a really sharp flat field view across the entire FOV, without a paracorr. In fact when I directly compared the 14mm Denkmeier to my 14mm Pentax XW in my 10"/F5, I found it to be noticeably better in the outer 60% of the FOV than the 14mm Pentax XW, due to the slight field curvature of the 14mm Pentax XW, when it is used in a newtonian without a paracorr. I am really puzzled here as to why you are seeing what you are seeing and I am wondering if you do not have an eyepiece which has some slight quality control issues. eg. slight misalignment of a lens for example during assembly. If you can find someone else with a 14mm Denkmeier to compare against, or maybe even someone who will loan you one to make a direct comparison with your own eyepiece. The only 3 I know of and have used are all now located outside Australia. One of which belongs to Scott Mitchell (Wavelandscott), who moved back to the USA.

Cheers,
John B

[wavelandscott]

I am surprised too and not sure what is going on...mine works a treat and I often advocate others to give them a go.

[CometGuy]

Suzy,

I still have mine, your welcome to compare anytime. PM me.

Terry

[ausastronomer]

Hi Terry,

How do you find the 14mm Denk and what scopes are you using it in?

Cheers,
John B

[CometGuy]

Hi John,

I'm really happy with the eyepiece, which I often use on a 12" F5 dob. It gives me 107x which is about ideal for Deep sky observing from my location. A few nights ago I was just able to pick out a faint diffuse comet low in my light polluted western sky using this eyepiece which I could not see with a similiar focal length Plossl. The contrast, the nice comfortable eye relief as well as the largish field of view all help with observations of very faint extended objects like this.

After using eyepieces with very short eye relief (i.e small focal length Plossl's the older Naglers, etc) it took a few minutes to adjust when I first got the eyepiece. Subsequently I have come to appreciate the extra eye relief and the comfort it gives.

I have also found it works very well with a Tele vue Powermate 5x and a 1980's vintage TV 1.8x barlow. The view of Saturn during one night of decent seeing was something else with the Denk + Powermate giving a very nice 530x view!

The only - minor - pain I had with this eyepiece is I went to clean the eyepiece and found there is some lubricant around the eye cup which managed to contaminate the cleaning fluid. So you have to be careful with that.

Once again thanks for your original recommendation regarding this eyepiece.

Terry

[Suzy]

Thanks John, that's very helpful information.
Yes, all my eyepieces are used only in my 10" dob.
To answer your question about the LVW, this issue doesn't happen in my LVW- stars remain pin point. Hmmm so it looks like this could be a fault then like you said. But honestly, it's very minor so I can put up with it because it has so many positives. As Terry said, it's fantastic for picking up those very faint fuzzies and I love the comfort.
I don't think I'd be able to do anything about it now anyway, as it's probably out of warranty- I don't even know what the warranty period is. I got it from Daniel at Frontier Optics in Sydney, so return wouldn't have been an issue.

Terry, thanks for your offer- it'll be worth comparing them one day. Probably no hurry as I'm sure this eyepiece must now be out of warranty.

Scott, many thanks for your input too. This eyepiece has certainly peeked a lot of interest since I posted this thread a long time ago, as up to this day I get pm's asking my thoughts- that's why I decided to bump this up finally and put in my thoughts. In all my replies I have still recommend it, as it's such a great eyepiece (listing all the positives).

[Andy Walters]

Suzy,
hi, I have 14mm Denkmier with 10" dob, it's my favorite eyepiece!, however at astro-fest I looked through a 10mm delos and it blew me away, and I see Tele-View now have a 14mm for sale, twice the weight of the Denk though, similar in size to Vixen LVW.
Cheers Andy.:)

[Suzy]

Hi Andy,
Good to hear you're enjoying the awesomeness of the Denk. 14 :thumbsup:.
Delos? Hmmmm I hear they're very good, but I'm a Pentax fantatic thru and thru. Just placed an order for another XW (to join my 10 & 7) a few days ago- an XW5, can't wait yaaaaaaay :D.

[bytor666]

Hi Suzy,

I was just reading this entire post. Nice post BTW! Anyhoo, I was out last night testing out my 10mm XW and 13mm Vixen LVW to see just how close they are in magnification. I *WAS* going to sell one, but decided to keep both! I also have the 22mm Vixen LVW and stars are super sharp pretty much right out to the edges in my 10" F/4.7 reflector like you have.

As far as the LVW's go, what I did was remove the eye cups altogether, (not shown in my attachment, but I have them cup-less now), and I keep them that way and have them tucked away safely where I can find them. I find with the eye cups right off of the LVW's it is super cozy and I don't even touch the housing of the EP when observing. I also keep them off so that they won't eventually break over time by folding them down and then back up again after observing. I found two dust caps that fit perfectly on both the 22mm and 13mm LVW's as well.

Give that a try and see if that helps!

PS: I love both the XW's in the 10mm, 7mm, 5mm ranges and love the 22mm and 13mm LVW's too, and more than likely I will end up with a 5mm XW as well!!!

Cheers,

Mark

[Suzy]

Hi Mark,
Thanks so much for that, I will definitely give that a go! I thought I was the only one that suffered that problem! :lol:
Aside from the extended cup which cuts into my eye socket, I also find the fov restricting. So much more comfy for me when I fold it down. Tho others seem to prefer it as it blocks out stray light. The Denkenmeir eyepiece caps are just the most comfy ones I've ever used- they have a sort of rolled rubber which is short, so with the combination of the 20mm ER, you can keep your eye at a good distance and still see the entire fov.

I recently added a brand new XW5mm to my collection! :D
And I think I'm awfully glad I did- I'm hearing that Lanthanum glass is going to be hard to come by soon and could get very expensive.
I even heard someone say on this forum, they seem to think Pentax XWs will be no more in the future (as they use this rare earth element)? :shrug:
So I did some homework because I started to get worried!

See the chart here. (http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-lanthanium-oxide-prices-2011-3) :eyepop:
Wikki article here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthanum)

Carl (re-normalised) said to me on facebook:
"It's becoming scarce because the deposits of Lanthanum are mostly in Russia and China. For 8 months of the year, you can't mine in Russia because the ground is frozen solid and China is mining it for "strategic" reasons and stockpiling what it has. That's why the cost is going up."

[Wavytone]

Yup the price and lack of availability of cerium and lanthanum has gone through the roof, but it has also motivated people to start looking elsewhere. A new rare-earth deposit was discovered in WA and the company concerned is negotiating to process the ore in Malaysia, so the Chinese will find they have a substantial competitor soon.

[Profiler]

Hi Suzy

Ditto on the comments related to lanthanum as well. From what I understand the increasing cost is going to impact on whoever is left and uses it in their glass - so Vixen's are going to be effected in the near future.

[bytor666]

Hi Suzy,

I just leave the eyecups right off of the LVW's and the views are just right! Anyhoo, big change in eyepiece plans!!! I just sold the 13mm Vixen LVW and I picked up a 24mm Denk! :D I had it in my scope briefly tonight, as the skies were a bit on the "hazy" side, so a full evaluation wasn't going to happen. From what I did see however, the 14mm Denk barlowed perfectly and held right up in regards to sharpness, etc to my 7mm Pentax XW.

I think the 14mm Denk will be in my eyepiece case for a very long time from what I saw. I'll coma back here and drop a link to CN, or leave a report here on the 14mm Denk when I get some better skies.

Cheers,

[bytor666]

Hi Suzy,

Big change in eyepiece plans!!! I just sold the 13mm Vixen LVW and I picked up a 14mm Denk! :D I had it in my scope briefly tonight, as the skies were a bit on the "hazy" side, so a full evaluation wasn't going to happen. From what I did see however, the 14mm Denk barlowed perfectly and held right up in regards to sharpness, etc to my 7mm Pentax XW.

I think the 14mm Denk will be in my eyepiece case for a very long time from what I saw. I'll report back here and drop a link to CN, or leave a report here on the 14mm Denk when I get some better skies.

Cheers,

[Suzy]

:lol: Mark's now addicted to the Denks. :P:lol:
Good on you and congratulations on another purchase. :lol:
I look forward to hearing about your experiences with 24 Denk. Have you had a chance to try it out properly yet?
Many apologies for taking so long to get back to you, I've had a lot on my plate to deal with lately.:sadeyes:

[bytor666]

Hi Suzy,

I made a boo-boo and I meant to say it was the 14mm Denk, as there is no 24mm Denk HAHAHA! :lol: I have only had the 14mm Denk out for a spin twice and both times the skies in my backyard were less than ideal. I really need to get it out to a dark sky site where I go with my chums !!! I will report back after I get it and my other eyepieces out there soon....if the skies clear up that is !!!!

One thing I do remember is how easy eye placement is on the 14mm Denk, and it barlows perfectly! When you look down into it with a bright light above you, there is nothing but pitch BLACK when looking into the top lens. The baffling, etc is top notch in the 14mn Denk! I also purchased it because of John and your reports on it. :)

PS: I got rid of my 38mm Orion Q70 and have a 34mm Explore Scientific 68 degree on the way !!!!! :thumbsup::eyepop:;)

Cheers,

Hehehe, we almost have the same Ep's LOL!

[Suzy]

Hi Mark,
Hope you don't mind that I highlight so obviously above, but I really want to draw attention to this.

Yes, eye placement is easy- by far the most comfortable IMO out of all my lenses. HOWEVER! And I made a point about this earlier (if anyone missed it). Terry & I had huge problems with eye placement on our first use. The second session left us scratching our heads with what the big fuss was. I just thought it was Terry and I. Well, I had Shelley over recently and on her first use of it, she couldn't get her eye placement working. And then I realised- I told her about the first light curse of this ep! :lol:
I just want to make sure that people aren't put off by their first use of this ep.

Oh yes and the blackness is incredible isn't it Mark.
The pitch black sky shown thru this ep is the first thing I noticed as a huge WOW moment. And then I threw it on 47Tuc and nearly passed out right then and there... Coloured planetary nebulae are just the most awesome thru it as well- blue planetary etc. And as Terry said before, it's very good at picking up faint fuzzies.

Yes, I had a big chuckle when I saw your pic, where like ep twins! :lol:
I knew there was a 20 something Denk.out there and I believed your 24mm story. :P I've just had a look at their website. Okay so it's a 21mm they have, close enough. :P:lol:

[wavelandscott]

The 21 mm is very good but in my opinion not quite the equal of the 14 mm as a single eyepiece. But in a Binoviewer the 21 is quite enjoyable and very comfy to use. With just a smidge more magnification than the 24 Panoptic, the 21 mm hits a good place for me. I would not hesitate to recommend the Denks...

[bytor666]

Hi Suzy,

No probs on highlighting that area in a quote!

I think I know as to WHY others have stated tricky eye placement. I tried on purpose to get my eye in on the 14m Denk REALLY CLOSE to the eye lens. upon doing that, the view blacks right out when you do get really close, which is quite easy to do because the lack of a sufficient eye guard, so my take on that is that some will get too close to the eye lens, experience blackouts and write the EP off. :lol::eyepop:

I had good training in this regard because I used to own a 12mm Nagler Type 4 and the eye placement on that EP is very tricky.....so I gained experience in tricky eye placement issues with that.....and now other eyepieces are a walk in the park compared to that one! Yes, the blackness in that EP is indeed incredible! I just need some clear dark skies in order to really get it to shine.....I can't wait to get it out there! :D

Cheers and clear skies!!! :thumbsup: