They don't have a clue.....

[Peter Ward]

After the Brisbane floods in 1974, there was much posturing and promises to make sure such an event could "never happen again"

Well it took 37 years...and not I'm sure high speed internet access/NBN is the top priority for the property and business owners who are now literally going under....:doh:

Perhaps a review of National priorities is in order?

Seems rather odd to me this does not seem to be happening given the current sad events and lessons well learnt elsewhere...

"By the year 1879, the need for improvement of the Mississippi River had become widely recognized. The necessity for coordination of engineering operations through a centralized organization had finally been accepted"

[DavidTrap]

It's not sexy Peter - no votes in it!

After a government in QLD was voted out because they planned to build a road, subsequent governments have been too frightened to do anything controversial - this isn't my political opinion being voiced here, but fact!

However, for those who are saying that Wivenhoe isn't helping, it is apparently holding back an equivalent amount of water to what came through Brisbane in '74.

DT

[renormalised]

It's just the norm....posture and promise, make a lot of noise, then hope the problem either goes away or happens on some other poor idiot's watch. Nothing will happen to fix or alleviate any future problems because the people will conveniently let those in charge get away with it after all this is over and passed on....and those in charge know this. They count on it.

[supernova1965]

Unfortunately the only way to avoid these events is to not build on flood plains we have to realise we can't change the rivers they will eventually win in the end.:shrug:

[TrevorW]

Such mistakes are repeated look at tornado alley in the US where houses get destroyed and they continue to build them exactly the same way

These errors are repeated because Govt's and even insurance companies fail to act for reasons sighted above

It's no fault of the people they can only re-build what they can afford

[renormalised]

Yep, Wivenhoe is full....with what rain you've got down there which is only equivalent to a normal wet season's rainfall up north, here. Get a heavy episode of rain like we often get in wet seasons where a metre or so of rain falls in a day and those dams down in the SE won't cut the mustard, especially now. You'll need a sub to go shopping in the Mall.

[DavidTrap]

Yeah, but this isn't FNQ.

DT

[renormalised]

True, but you're getting our typical wet season rain at present and the geography down there can't handle it. What if you do get a heavy rain episode....which could very well happen. You never know, and if you do get one or two, the '74 floods will look like a dry summer's day.

[blindman]

Absolutely with you Peter!

M/s Gillard should be sentenced to live at the most affected area for at least 2 months.

[avandonk]

Peter as usual you are at best misinformed at worst a stirrer. The Missisipi is just as these rivers that have a FLOOD PLAIN. Even the the powers that be have come to the conclusion that flood mitigation on the Mississipi have only moved floods to other areas.

Bert

[multiweb]

Planning, financing, implementing and taking on a project of this amplitude would span more than one office which means unlikely follow-up and pretty much political suicide which is the problem these days. Short term meaningless/looking good is always taking priority over non-popular/right thing to do. But it is right that prevention would be far less of a financial impact than repeatidly fixing the harm that comes to all the people affected. Especially that death toll is just shocking.

[Alchemy]

I'm convinced authorities don't get it, I am not familiar with the QLD local politics but here in Victoria in the shire of the Yarra Ranges where they had the bush fires only 2 years ago, they are now introducing new policies regarding vegetation, ..... Noone should cut up a fallen tree because it's habitat for some bug, They don't want firebreaks built, let's have net growth in trees and burnable stuff as priority number 1, trees have become sacred.

http://www.yarraranges.vic.gov.au/files/f42a7f6a-0765-4be0-81fb-9e38012333f8/final_draft_Flora_and_Fauna_Managem ent_Strategy_Nov_2010.pdf

It's a chug of a read, but they never learn anything.

I'm sure the same problems exist up north, but just in a different context.

[renormalised]

Problem there, Bert is they went about flood mitigation in entirely the wrong way, trying to control the river by straightening it out. You can't do that with any large waterway, let alone a river like the Mississippi, which is huge. You're on a hiding to nothing. The smartest thing to do is not build on their flood plains, but for most instances that's completely impractical. You either have to live with the recurring floods in the best way you can and/or figure out ways to minimise the damage the best way you can....but not by shifting the problems elsewhere as they have in the US.

[multiweb]

You're pretty switched on Geology Carl. What's your take on QLD geography? Can something been done as a preventive measure? Can it be fixed? More dams? Embakments? Or back to the drawing board? I was asking the same questions the 6th of January in another thread wondering why QLD always get flooded. I was told it's just too flat and almost on sea level?

[renormalised]

It's the same here, Clive. They've got no clue at all. Best way to deal with them is if a disaster happens again because of their policies, sue them for everything they've got and then throw them in the slammer for their negligence and stupidity.

[supernova1965]

This is not a recent problem and can't be blamed on any current government Liberal, ALP or any other political party you care to name these cities were built in the wrong place to begin with making the solution very politically unpalatable these areas need to eventually be considered uninhabitable or build to be able to cope with the flood peaks ie, elevated above the highest flood level and don't build and relocate residential areas from flood plain areas. I can't blame anyone for being scared to take the steps needed to end the cycle of death and destruction I mean you have to be in power to make any difference at all.

[avandonk]

If you want a rational analysis of where floods might affect you. Just try and insure your house against flood on a known flood plain. I am totally insured against flood (for free) as I am over 50m over any flood plain! Gee the insurance companies will cover me for an eventuality that will never happen!

Bert

[Lee]

Bert - if you flood, I would expect the insurer to be broke anyway! :)

[avandonk]

As for bushfires on Black saturday it was 49.7C at my place. The northerly was blowing at 60k and gusting at 100K. I do not think that a few logs on the side of the road would make a difference.

We all want to know why and how. But to blame any policies from anyone for black Saturday is both ignorant and facile. It was a perfect firestorm!

Bert

[renormalised]

It's not a problem that is going to be easily solved. Sometimes a dam is a good measure but in many cases it can make matters worse. You have to be very careful in locating and building the dams because the local geography and underlying geology can all effect how the dam performs in stressed situations, like now. You also have to pick the right kind of dam too. With embankments and such, we need to take a leaf out of nature's book about how they should be constructed. Trying to straighten out the courses of streams and rivers, or channeling floods away from one area only to make matters worse in another, is the wrong way of going about it all. Some of the really big rivers, like the Burdekin, Fitzroy, Clarence, Shoalhaven etc etc, you won't control no matter how much you put into stopping floods. In a good wet season, the Burdekin empties at its mouth twice the volume of water of all the other east coast rivers combined, into the ocean....you can't stop that. You'd need a dam over a mile high just to hold back all the water!!!!.

The problem with QLD is not that it's flat....it's not, except out west of the Divide. It's the amount of rain we get in the time we do. For instance, Mt Bellenden Ker (5000 feet, near Babinda), back in 2002, had 12 metres of rainfall that wet season. But the creeks and rivers like Babinda Ck, Jospehine Ck, Tully River and the streams that run into the Johnstone River, whilst they flooded, managed to handle it. They're fast flowing and are short watercourses that run to the sea within 50 or so miles. It flooded, but nothing to the extent like we're seeing down south. Also, our soils up here can absorb vast amounts of water before they become saturated...those down south can't. It's all to do with their composition and physical makeup. They're not meant to take the rainfall they're getting at present. They saturate quickly and what's left just runs off quickly to the streams and such. You also have different river and stream profiles down south than you get up north. The shape and size of the profiles also dictates how the rivers and streams will act when large amounts of water come down them. Many of the streams and rivers up here can handle much larger volumes of water before the begin to break their banks. They also spread out much wider when they flood.

So, that's what we have to work with and within. Not an easy task, but with a bit of intelligence and integrity, it can be done.

[TrevorW]

Biblical proportions,

"God, whats an Ark"

:question:

[strongmanmike]

Nah, it's more likely "Joh" Bjelke-Petersens fault, his administration was ultimately recognised as institutionally corrupt and in power for nearly two decades. Flo's still alive make her live there.

Mike

[el_draco]

Pollies might even consider replanting some of the millions of trees that they allowed to be ripped down in QLD over the past 25 years. Trees tend to stop erosion, trap water and slow its velocity across the ground... :screwy:

[avandonk]

Here is a hint!
If you have thick deep alluvial soils beneath your feet you are in a flood plain. By all means grow stuff etc.
When the water that brought this nice fertile soil to where you are comes again do not be surprised!

Bert

[el_draco]

Maybe "they" ARE finally learning.... For 200+ years we have been fighting a losing battle with nature and its about time we started thinking differently.

The country burns, the country dries, the country floods...

I mean, how obvious is this:

Build on a flood plain..., you will flood...,
Build in a forest...,you'll burn...,
Rip up the environment and your topsoil blows away..,
Bugger up the ecology and you'll bugger yourself up as well.

In short, screw with nature and nature will screw you back. Suck it up and start using a bit of common sense.

Are we learning yet?

[renormalised]

We can't all live on the sides of hills and mountains. There's even less space to build on and not all hillsides are stable enough. Plus, cut down the trees on the hills and you'll get the same problems, only magnified by rampant erosion etc. People have to live somewhere, but what we need to do is work with nature...not against it. Also, not doing stupid things which will make matters worse when the floods come...like building dams in the wrong place, or the wrong types of dams etc.

In any case Bert, if it floods in your house, we're all in trouble!!!!. Either one of three things have happened...a tsunami from an asteroid impact or huge earthquake, the land sank (also due to a huge earthquake), or Antarctica melted:D:P

[Alchemy]

Fires used to burn naturally, now we put them out until they reach unstoppable proportions. I'm all for nature, but not allowing you to cut up a dead log ????

I find here in Melbourne the greenies live in the concrete jungle of the inner suburbs and then dictate to the rest of us what they don't have to deal with... As they turn on their air-conditioning, hop into the merc, eat their food from plastic containers.....

I don't disagree that there are risks living in some environments but why put fuel on the fire.

[rat156]

Peter,

This is not the pollies fault, particularly not one of the recent batch. They built Wivenhoe to flood "proof" Brisbane. Unfortunately the amount of rain here over the last six months has been way above the norm.

Wivenhoe has been releasing water for the past six months, it simply isn't big enough to deal with this amount of water. It is at over 150% full and can go to 200%, but it must release some water.

Toowoomba was hit by an extreme weather event, no dam will stop that, the same water was responsible for most of the destruction around Withcott etc. This is the same rain that is now combining with the Wivenhoe output and a king tide to produce the flooding in Brisbane. This rainfall is outside the Wivenhoe catchment area and there is no logical place to put a dam in the Lockyer valley.

If your going to cast the blame about, get the facts right first.

Perhaps something constructive would be good, like "I've donated $100 to the Flood relief appeal, who's going to match it?" would be better than stirring the pot and having a swipe at the pollies?

Cheers
Stuart

[avandonk]

My place is about a few kilometers from the junction of the Diamond Creek and Yarra River. Eltham is hilly and the soils are barren. I have seen the floods here when I was a kid. I have seen many bushfires as well.

I was not being smug! My brother had a house in Goodna in 1974 close to the river and the water came within inches of his floorboards. It was one of those very practical QL houses with 14ft stilts.

My simple point was to not blame anyone but ourselves.

Bert

[mangrovedutch]

Just to weigh in on the subject - we are people who think that we are smart and can control mother nature. I have sad news and the concequences are obvious. We live say 80-100 years and this planet is how old? We don't have a concept of what it is like to live to 500 years old, and data keeping has only been around for a few hundred years. In the Civil and Surveying game you work according to Q100, which translates to a 1 in 100 year flood. I assume that they use the data from the 1890's flood for this.
Things are going to get worse, with the population expansion and all the new sub-division popping up with their storm water systems funneling into nearby creeks at a high velocity.
We are still to see a decent cyclone this season, one has crossed the Qld coast this year as a Category 1. They are expecting 6-8 to cross the Qld coast this season, and the way the low systems are travelling this season, we will see at least one to get to the Fraser coast. For those interested, have a look at the CSIRO ocean current site and have a look how warm the waters are off Fraser, and how the currents are running from north Qld. A category 3 hanging off Fraser, ground that simply cannot absorb any more 500mm of rain - you do the maths.
I'm not writing this as a scary topic, just being realistic. And there is simply no point blaming what ever political party or authority, they can't and WILL not control Mother Nature. Humans are smart (all our engineers come from university with a head full of information that at best is based on a couple of hundred years), but not that smart that they can fortell and prepare for natural disasters and the force of Mother Nature

Regards, Dutch

[renormalised]

The problem with people building in the bush is they allow trees to grow too close to their property. It's only sensible to have a decent firebreak and cleared parcel of land around any buildings you may have. Although, I know how bad fires can get and in the worst of them, nothing is guaranteed to keep your house and such, safe.

I know what your point was, and it's a good point. However, the authorities also have a responsibility to make sure that everyone is safe and that measures are taken to ensure this. When all they do is pass the buck, do things half-heartedly or not at all, and make all the promises in the world and then forget them, you have to start questioning the competency and the integrity of those in authority and whether they're fit to be in those positions. It's then your responsibility to make sure you get someone who can and will do the job and the right thing by everyone.

In any case, I still stand by the antediluvian proportions of the disaster that would befall us all if your place flooded. Let me know when the water reaches your floor boards, I'll go climb a very high tree :):P

[Peter Ward]

Not stirring Bert, just observing the bleedin' obvious.

....and I must have missed the levee system last time I was in Brisbane.

Sure it is hard to protect any flood plain city against extreme events (eg Katrina breaching the Mississipi levees in New Orleans in some 50 locations)...but tropical cyclones are rare in SE Queensland...hence a Brisbane River levee breach (if they actually existed) would be very unlikely.

Given the extra energy in our atmosphere (i.e. climate change) I would expect extreme weather events such as this to become more frequent.

But as long as we can download, well, whatever, quickly over the NBN...as this is "the most important nation building project of our time"... we should be happy.:D

[renormalised]

That's what I've been saying. However, I've also been saying that the authorities can and have passed the buck when it comes to doing what they can about alleviating those problems they can control. They make promises, then don't keep them. Let some other dumb twit handle it. They're too narrowly focused, time wise, in everything they do. Most can't see out beyond the ends of their noses, so to speak. Try to get anyone in authority to make plans beyond 3 to 4 years and you'll be certain of disappointment. Even that time frame is stretching it too far, most of the time.

It also means that responsibility and common sense, along with sound knowledge needs to be used. Unfortunately, all of that is seriously lacking.

[Peter Ward]

Agreed many Pollies have come and gone since the 1974 event.

That said, there has been dearth of heavy engineering projects through-out Oz ever since.

No national irrigation, road or rail systems of merit.

( O.K. ..The school halls..at least those above water...are pretty good...:D... )

I suspect this is beacuse Board-level engineers have been slowly replaced by accountants.

The only way it will change is if we (voters) get in some faces and make it so.

[el_draco]

There is argument out there that says leaving fallen trees acually reduces the spread of fire and if you've ever watched it burn over open grassland you'll understand the logic in that. Dead logs have numerous GOOD reason for being there; neatness not being one of them.

I've lived in Melbourne, and Northern Victoria, and I can assure you there are a hell of a lot more "greenies" not living in the cities. I've seen plenty of "greenies" living in nightmare conditions to protect the ancient forests in Tassie being bulldozed by big business for a couple of $ a ton for woodchips and all I can say is these "greenies" have a hell of a lot more guts than most.

Hyberbole does not help in this situation.

There is good arguement for staying out of some environments altogether but we can live in these areas provided we do a bit of learning and use common sense and accept that we live there on natures terms.

If you are going to build in an area where there is even a 100 year risk of flooding for instance, ACCEPT that you are going to get flooded. You can't get flood insurance in these areas for the simple reason that insurance companies have done their research. If you still buy/build there..., be it on your own head.

Instead of expecting the enviroment to bend around us, time we did a bit of bending ourselves dont you think? Even in ludicous locations like Kinglake, houses survived because they were well build with fire prevention systems/ bunkers.

[renormalised]

Precisely, Peter. We need to be more assertive and make the pollies etc, do what we want to see being done. Not just wait till the next election. Otherwise, it will be business as usual and nothing will get done.

[el_draco]

... And at what point does individual reponsibility kick in?

[mangrovedutch]

It also means that responsibility and common sense, along with sound knowledge needs to be used. Unfortunately, all of that is seriously lacking.

That's an oximoron isn't it LOL. Humans can engineer a lot of things, and sometimes get it right. In Holland in 1954 the dykes burst and halve the country dissappeared under 2 metres of water - an Engineering issue. It is all based on maths and physics of an assumed scenario, and there will be mistakes made. Whivenhoe was build to prevent exactly what is happening now, and the water level is breaking the 74 marks. People are like rabbits (population explosion) and demand to live somewhere. The Gold Coast is a good example with all the island communities - Hope Island is built on a swamp, there are a couple of swamp dozers buried there, because they couldn't be retrieved. I totally agree with your comment, but we can't change what we have now, maybe we can improve somethings - but we will lose the fight against natures powers, we cannot conceive of what it is capable of - we get a glimps every so often. Nothing will change, more and more people will occupy SEQ which means more and more will be affected by what is a normal cycle in Earths history. Millions of dollars will now be thrown into a commision on how to prevent this happening again, which IMHO is a waste of money. We simply cannot stop these things from happening. What is to say that Wivenhoe can hold 200% capacity, do you trust the engineering on the dam wall? I've spend the last 20 years in the Civil Construction game, and I have seen and understand the way storm water systems are build and erosion controls are constructed. I have also seen man hole steel lids blow 10-15 metres into the air, because the Q100 was wrong and the pressure and volume hydrolically was never calculated for. I have lost faith in the pollies and engineers, we are simply not prepared for the worst, and we can't calculate measures to prevent it until we have experienced it. All we can do is model scenarios with the information we have now. We are not done yet......

Regards, Dutch

[renormalised]

Use your common sense....your responsibility to make sure you have good governance and properly managed laws and other measures is ongoing, all the time. If the authorities aren't doing right by everyone, then say so and make it known to them that change needs to be made. One person can't do it all, alone. It's everyone's job to see things being done. If a council isn't doing what's needed and what the community wants, boot them out. You don't have to wait until an election to do so. Same with any government. The general public is too lax in this respect and those that gain power play on this for all it's worth. Remember, they have their jobs on our sufferance, not because they have any right to them.

In so far as your own personal responsibilities, they should be all too obvious. Especially when the safety of yourself, your family and your community is concerned. Claiming ignorance of these is no excuse, nor is it a defence for anything that may occur because of your own negligence.

The whole comparison between Tasmanian forest and fires occurring in the bush is a furphy. I have no problems with wanting to keep those ancient forests intact...and so they should be. But the reason for clearing undergrowth out of those areas near habitation is to reduce the risk of a conflagration occurring in those areas. My father was a state firewarden for the Sutherland Shire in the 60's. The reason why they used to do controlled burnoffs (like the Aborigines, but for different reasons) is to reduce that risk of having a wildfire go out of control, like all the major fires that have happened where the undergrowth had built up to such an extent (due to the mismanagement by local/state government and misguided people in those areas) that the fuel load on the ground was prime for a conflagration to occur. A grassfire is nothing....wait till you've gone through a full blown forest fire where the fire crowns through the trees at 200mph and the temp underneath the flames is hot enough to melt a fire tender. You'll then know why that undergrowth and fuel can't be allowed to get too thick and why it needs to be periodically cleared.

[rmcconachy]

Rarely in this blame, or better yet sue, somebody else world. I believe that we should help those who are hit by misfortune but shouldn't it also be accepted that building a house in the middle of a eucalypt forest or a regular flood plain (I'm taking about the more extreme examples here) is not a very good idea? Doubly so for those who don't even bother with insurance (somebody else can bail me out). Or perhaps not given how things seem to be... :shrug:

[mangrovedutch]

Good call Carl, I agree. Those crown fires are amazing to watch, but super devastating with its power. We need to accept the way things are today, and do our best in the future. Disasters have been happening for thousands if not millions of years, we can't control the power of nature, we have to accept it and get on with our lives the best we can, no matter how sad the outcomes are.

Regards, Dutch

[Alchemy]

I agree people need to accept some responsibility, I live in a wildfire area as listed by local authorities, and have sprinklers etc.... No bunker as there are none that conform to any standards as yet.

Many wise men got together and had a Royal Commision to decide what was sensible regarding the issues, the council have ignored that information. So try haven't got a clue is appropriate.

I realize many of the issues are polarizing, and you are quite entitled to your views regarding these things..... Just not on my property:D ( peter does pick the contetious ones), it would seem we are just going to disagree on some points.
No matter where you live you will be prone to some form of potential disaster. Even citified folks.

[jenchris]

Q100 is worked out from 3D modelling - very little of it except some of the rainfall data is from historical data.
Every home that is designed has to be hydraulically balanced with retention and soakage and tanking.
One of the reasons a lot of developers are shy from investing is the rigmarole to get the DA passed.
Upping housing density is the only way we're going to move forward - and decentralising business is probably the best way to accomplish better ecobalance.

[renormalised]

What's oxymoronic about having knowledge and the common sense to put it to good use. The fact that it's lacking is not an oxymoron. It's an indictment on those we put into authority. And an indictment on the general community for being sucked in by conmen and charlatans.

Mistakes will happen all the time, and you can't plan for the unexpected, however weather patterns such as we're getting now are not unexpected. These are cyclic occurrences and their frequency can be planned for. It may mean planning over extended periods of time, but that's ultimately a political and societal issue and not one of engineering or science. I'm a geologist and also have a very good understanding of climatology. So I have a pretty good idea as to what happens and the history of it all. If you had to wait to experience every climatic event through time in order to figure out how to engineer countermeasures against it, we'd have gone extinct before you even built your first levee. Not only is doing that impractical, it's also decidedly ridiculous. It may mean you have to over engineer something for an event that may not occur for 10000 years, but if the safety of the general public is concerned, then it should be done. It's then ultimately up to the public whether they want to spend the time, effort and expense in doing so.

Look at it this way, with another disaster....an asteroid impact. Now, I have a masters degree in astrophysics as well as being a geologist. So I know a little bit about these things as well (apart from having been an amateur astronomer for a long time as well). We could totally ignore the consequence of an impact from an asteroid with our planet, and for the most part we are. But if one were to hit, we'd be screwed. Yet, you have more chance of being killed by an asteroid impact than you have of dying in a plane crash and only marginally greater chances of being killed in a car crash. Yet nothing, or very little, is being done to look into and try to prevent it, or alleviate its consequences. It may not happening for the next 10000 years, but if a 1km rock hit tomorrow, you could count on 2-3 billion people dying within the first year of the impact. By the time the air cleared and everything went back to normal, we'd probably only be left with a billion people or less on the planet. Which would be great for the planet but an unmitigated disaster for civilisation. We'd be blasted back to the Stone Age because most people don't have the survival skills or knowledge to be able to cope with something like that. Nor do most have the knowledge or skills to reboot any sort of technological society. Most aren't capable of doing it. So we'd for the most part go back to the very basics....again.

Is this something we should invest in to prevent, despite the odds....yes. Should we be doing something about it now....yes. Is it worth it....yes.

[Hagar]

I don't know that any government can be blamed for the flood crisis as it stands today. To say that Wivenhoe dam would prevent a reoccurance of the 74 floods is just political speak. Old Joe was good at that. The real fact is that the construction of such a dam serves a few purposes. 1. Generate electricity, 2. Provide drinking or irrigation water. Both these uses are far from conducive of preventing a flood as they require the dam to be kept as full as possible to maximize the use of the water.
For a dam to be truely used for flood prevention the dams would need to be kept empty. This is never going to happen. Politics and infrastructure needs say fill me up.
The one thing a dam such as Wivenhoe does do is provide a buffer in the event of minor flooding or short high rainfall events.

In this case it is apparent that Wivenhoe has held back a huge amount of water which would have had Brisbane in flood some 2 weeks ago and would have still been in flood today. When you look at a dam like Wivenhoe and try to work out the amount of water which was retained in dead storage over the huge surface area of the lake and the fact that it is currently holding 147.8 % of rated capacity. That is almost half the dams normal capacity used for flood mitigation purposes.

It would be impossible to flood proof any of our capital cities as they are all built on big flood plains. Some mitigation or reduction of risk is possible but thats about it.
It is either a risk we take or we move to higher ground. A hard one for sure.

I feel for everyone in QLD at the moment. Hope you are all safe and well.

[el_draco]

Take a look at "Earth Bag" construction. I'm building one late next year. Great bunker... Doubles as a great wine cellar as well. :D




Alas, Mother Nature does not recognise your Certificate of Title. :rolleyes:

[renormalised]

Nothing is foolproof...or flood proof for that matter. And this is not about making things "anything proof". It's about being hoodwinked and lied to when local authorities say they will do something to help alleviate any future occurrences and then pass the buck onto someone else down the line, hoping they don't have to shoulder any responsibility for what might occur or for not putting in measures to get things rolling. If they have the capacity to do something which may help in the future, they have a moral and legal duty to do so, as elected and paid representatives of the people and also to those they delegate the authority, to do the necessary jobs. Instead of trying to be sexy about everything and narrowly focused on the immediate term, they should look to being responsible for their communities and plan for the long term. And that doesn't mean 3 or 4 years. It may mean planning for events which may not occur for 20, 30, 40 years. or at least putting in the proper infrastructure to get the ball rolling quickly if things start to go pear shaped, no matter the length of the time period.

It's then up to the rest of us to approve these things and help implement them.

[Tandum]

That dam has a 100% level which is for drinking and a 200% level which is for flood. If it exceeds 200% they can't control the release of captured water. It went from 120% to 175% in 2 days :sadeyes:

These flood waters came from the other direction anyway.

[renormalised]

There you go....at least if it floods or catches fire in Hobart, you'll have something to drink to pass the time waiting for the water to go down or the fire to stop:D:P

[el_draco]

If there is a flood where I am building, It'll be a final drink I suspect and I will start to believe in a "higher power"...
Altitude: 550m. :lol:

Fire is another matter though... couple of million tons of temperate rainforest to burn. but it stays pretty wet.... so I am relying on an earth covered, Earth Bag bunker... and a decent shiraz, or 10... ;)

[renormalised]

And if the present conditions keep up for any longer and you get a typical NQ downpour, you're in big trouble.

[marki]

Mother nature is supreme......what a crock of @#$% that is. Wake up folks humans have been out gunning the old girl for thousands of years. Sure she can be a ***** sometimes but we have always managed to go on despite her constant tantrums. Take cyclones for example, the NW of WA gets its fair share of those but what you will find is the buildings are designed to take it. When things got blown away, people looked at what remained standing, worked out why it was still standing and then wrote local building standards which account for these. People in QLD will have to do the same after this devastating flood is over but to suggest they may as well give up and walk away is just plain silly. Peter I agree 100%, the pollies have the power to do something positive, the only question is do they have the guts?

Mark

[renormalised]

Well....plenty of trees around to build an ark if it ever floods that high:D:P

Probably won't burn too well because it's soaked, but at least you can stay "soaked" and unburnt at the same time:D:P

[renormalised]

Answer to that Mark is...no.

[Alchemy]

To be effective it needs to be airtight, I found a website that says it has building commission approval http://www.wildfiresafetybunkers.com.au/?gclid=COjw8_KDtKYCFQ2ApAodcVTyGQ but is it quite Australian Standard... Not sure on that one...

If your bunker is not airtight, there is a potential to asphyxiate if you have a large burn over.

I'd need a permit from the council for any form of such construction, it would be interesting to see how much red tape you have to go through and if I needed to cut down a tree I wouldn't be allowed. :P

[multiweb]

It's not about guts. I think guts go with responsibility and put your money where you mouth is. Nothing will change until the day the pollies are made accountable for what they say and what they do. If I said or did half what they get away with I or anyone else for that matter would be in jail. And rightly so.

[el_draco]

Not going to tell them.... :lol:

[el_draco]

Yes, we know you like to stir the pot Mark, but most of the rest of us are not quite that deluded.... :hi:

[mangrovedutch]

Carl, my apologies on the oxymoron statement, just bad humour on my part. I agree with your further statements.
Thinking that we can out-smart nature is ignorance in itself, though. If we could out-smart her, than most disasters in the last few years could have been minimised, in the way of human loss, as well as infrastructure losses. I don't think any of us are going to be around when we have found the solutions to flood, fire, drought and other potential disaster. That would be asking to live in a perfect world, and that is fantasy in itself.
This topic could go on and on, we all have different experiences and opinions. I think that there is one thing we can all agree with, and that is the Australian community spirit and loyalty in times of need. Strangers helping strangers, to the extent of opening their houses to strangers in a less fortunate circumstances. This is what makes me proud to be an Australian. I find it heart warming. When this is all over, we'll go back to flicking the bird to people on the road, because they cut you off. For me, enough said on this subject. For those in need of anything, let us know, and I'm sure something will be done by any of us that are in a position where we can do something to make life a little bit easier in these tough times. That I am sure of. ;)

Regards, Dutch

[renormalised]

It takes both guts and responsibility, as you sat Marc.

That accountability will only come when the people wake up to the fact that they have been usurped and that we're not being as responsible as citizens as we could be.

[Tandum]

Rain has stopped here, just showers now, it's all moving west and south towards Melbourne. It's already broken all records for everything. Power is off all over town and I'm just waiting for the Internet and phones to stop although we should retain power here. Long range predictions are for a cyclone around Jan28th. It's been a long time since we've had one, they used to hit every year when I was growing up and usually more than one.

[marki]

I am not stirring the pot, I am stating a fact that can be observed by anyone willing to look e.g go to the pilbra after a huge cyclone and look, the buildings are all still standing, why might that be??? If anyone is deluded I would say it would have to be the tree hugging greenies, save the trees you cry, dont touch a twig.....last time I was in Hobart half of tasmania was on fire, well done :hi:.

Cheers

Mark

[tlgerdes]

Start packing or drinking, Toowoomba was at 700m altitude.:question:

[andrew2008]

A lot of people seem to think the dam didn't do it's job. How much worse would this have been if it wasn't there though. Floods levels of the 1890's would easily have been seen.

[Peter Ward]

No doubt.

The Brisbane river has had *major* floods in 1841, 1863, 1890, 1893 (really bad at 8 metres), 1916, 1974 and now in 2011, with dam. (Bureau of Met historical data)

You'd think the powers that be might have picked up on the fact these events:
1) are not rare
2) cause massive devistation and loss of life
3) far more (civil engineering) needs to be done...

[strongmanmike]

Ah yes the BOM, are they like the CSIRO..? Because accordinmg to some the CSIRO is just full of government paid psuedo scientists who miss represent the truth on behalf of the Climate Change drummers, just to keep themselves in jobs...:question: :rolleyes:

[marki]

Anyhow getting back on track :rolleyes: ....are there any civil engineering examples where changes have been made to successfully combat flooding? Perhaps pointing the pollies towards such examples would be more constructive.


Mark

[Alchemy]

Given these houses are built on frequently flooded land, whatever happened to he queenslander home built on stilts ?
With today's engineering you should be able to use steel poles for the supportnwhich will take a moderate "bash" and a bit of current.
Perhaps not if you are in the centre of an extreme hit but just flooding... One wonders.

[marki]

Yes Clive I was thinking the same thing perhaps using piles driven well into the ground could help? I mean they manage to stabilise oil rigs in heavy seas a light wieght structure like a house shouldn't prove too much of a problem.

Mark

[[1ponders]]

Unlocked and offending posts deleted.

please keep to topic and refrain from personal attacks.

[adman]

well not quite. At the time that the Brisbane area was first settled, it was the only logical place to build a city. All traffic came and went by the river and the sea.

[thunderchildobs]

Wivenhoe is on the Brisbane river, however the Bremer river which passes through Ipswich, joins the Brisbane river at Riverview / Mogil, which is well down stream from Wivenhoe.
Wivenhoe does not stop any flooding caused by the water from Bremer joining the Brisbane river. There are no dams on the Bremer.

[supernova1965]

I am talking about a CITY not a settlement when the settlement shows signs of growing the people used English experience of the homeland and no understanding of local conditions when allowing growth in the wrong location. Flood plains are the ideal place for food production and commerce and industry and housing need to be in a safe environment:thumbsup::hi:

[Lee]

Excellent point.

[adman]

yes but the city started from a settlement, and and that settlement was only able to grow because of its location on an easily navigable river with easy access to the goods produced by the city and the sea.

[Jeffkop]

Throughout history the prime consideration of settlement is water. Its logical to me then that these settlements were located close to rivers and then they prospered and grew from settlements to cities. Not to discount all the other valid reasons that were advantageous by being close to a river. Its also logical then that from time to time co-existing with a river brings with it the dilemna of a flood. If people think they are going to be able to indemnify themselves completely from all the different kinds of disasters that their environs present (both temporary or permanent) they are in a fairytale and so in fantasyland when ever theres a problem then its always got to be someones fault ... because fantasyland is PERFECT, and if its not ... someones to blame!!!

[Terry B]

I agree.
I use to live in Moree which is on a great big flood plain with black soil as foundations.
Despite this the building code was that all new buildings or renovations had to have floor level 500mm above the highest known flood (1954). Only the old houses don't comply and lots of them have been lifted on stilts to comply.
I'm not sure why the same rules wouldn't apply in Brisbane. Many of the houses we are seeing flooded on the media images are not old houses.
Have the Qld councils in these areas decided not to bother with similar rules?

[Peter Ward]

The Mississipi has literally several 1000km's of levees etc...that for the greater part, work. Even Grafton saved themselves alot of grief by doing the same.

Last time I was in Brisbane...can't say I noticed any levees or similar structures.

Do you not think it rather odd, that for a river that regularly floods in no small manner (with zippo flood control from the Bremer) ...that more has not been done in the last 100 or so years?

Yet we have the CBD of Australia's 3rd major capitol under water.....massive loss of property, and sadly loss of life....again.

Not rocket science IMHO.

[adman]

Peter if it is not rocket science, I would love to hear your proposal for a levee that would protect brisbane from flooding

[coldspace]

There are still plenty of Qld'er homes on stilts, problem now is many people have built in underneath them to make bigger living areas to keep up with the growing modern lifestyle and these now flood through causing alot more property damage than 74, as well as the massive influx of population growth from the other states over the last 20 years which has seen lots of property sub-divided up making it worse as well.

I think concerning the gravity of the situation the current emergency workers and those organising them"pollies" are doing a fantastic job and I will be taking a week off soon from my buisiness to go and help clean mud out of houses including houses of friends of mine.
My hats go off to those helping us out, at least our pollies did not stand around waiting like what happened after hurricane Katrina in the US.

[Peter Ward]

Not my area of expertise.

I'd deligate that to hydrologists and civil engineers who have the relevant experience.

First protecting the CBD would however seem like a good start.

I have no doubts the subsequent measures may be seen as draconian (eg "levee view" - rather than "waterview")....but... as the old saying goes...if you want to make an omlette, you have to break some eggs.

Less flippantly , 20,000 (maybe 35,000) homes being under water makes the future duty of care of doing nothing, look criminal.

[coldspace]

Its a big problem, even a massive issue on how to stop it happening again.
Also, the CBD is not that bad of an issue, its the thousands of homes out in the suburbs that are flooded.
Very hard to control over 2 times the volume of Sydney harbour flowing into one dam every day.
Without Wivenhoe the levels would have been up 8mtrs not the 4.3, we would be up sh-t creek if that was the case.
Back to the drawing board.

[Peter Ward]

Agreed.... "risk management" would include the following:


assess the probability of future floods
assess the vulnerability of populations & critical assets to flooding
determine the cost of future losses based on the above.
identify ways to reduce those costs (eg Dams. levees, canals, building codes)
prioritise flood mittigation measures based on a long term strategy

Bugger...where does high speed broad-band fit into this???

[adman]

As you say Peter, not your area of expertise. Yet you seem to have no shortage of advice about how to solve the problem

[Peter Ward]

And your solution?

Surely you are not saying all those poor familes now with their homes under water need some fibre optical cable to make them feel the Nation is going somewhere?

If there is a flood mitigation response from Canberra, please point me to it.

[supernova1965]

These events can not be stopped it is not possible to avoid floods in a flood plain its like holding up your hands and asking the orbit of the planets to stop people need to come to the realisation that we are not omnipotent and can not stop or control nature we need to work with it and adapt to it we can not make it bend to our will.

[supernova1965]

Those levees actually caused more problems than they solved once the river got through them which will always happen somewhere because the water has to go somewhere they had to knock them down to let the water out

[h0ughy]

Guys - might i remind you that while healthy discussion may be warranted, remember the TOS - no politics, no personal jibes, and be mindful of what you post as what you send out might not be how it is received.

[troypiggo]

We just got power back on here last night. I can't believe what I'm reading here.

Have the people here proposing a levee ever been to Brisbane, been up and down the river? If so, were your eyes opened?

A throwaway response to "what is your proposal then?" like "not my area of expertise, I'd leave that up to the civil engineers" is not acceptable by a long way.

[Peter Ward]

Many times. Flood mittigation would be no simple exercise, but I still maintain critical infrastructure and areas could be protected.

The Yanks (god bless 'em) have been working on the problem with a far more massive system for 130+ years. To say it doesn't work there indicates to me you haven't been there...the scale of engineering is truly impressive (an ethos seeming lost in Oz since completion of the Snowy Scheme)

That is not to say they got it 100% right as there have been significant unintended environmental impacts....which are being corrected...and one would think we could learn from their efforts as well as errors.

I don't accept the argument that throwing ones hands up and saying its in the lap of the gods.

Levees, floodways & wing dams can and do work. The Wivenhoe Dam clearly has had a mittigating effect during these recent floods...but more needs to be done

[rat156]

Agreed, totally, people who aren't here and are simply looking to shove a knife into a pollie should not comment. The NBN is something that people out here have been crying out for for ages. To say that it's a pink elephant and that we should be spending the money on construction projects is taking an extremely narrow point of view.

The people here in Chinchilla have been flooded twice in the last month, they are coping well, but it must be terrible for them. I'm lucky in that I'm staying in a motel and am merely inconvenienced in that I can't get home or to work.

As I suggested before, why don't you help. Some of you must have some spare cash laying about, why don't you make a contribution to the people that have been affected by the flooding.

I really don't understand the people on this forum who are just looking for a chance to stick the knife in, particularly at a time when people are losing everything that they own, some their lives. The people of Brisbane had a little warning and could have probably moved their most valuable possessions, but they couldn't have moved all their stuff, or their house. The people in the Lockyer valley and Toowoomba etc had no warning. The people here had to evacuate on Monday night in the middle of a raging storm.

Have some sympathy and empathy guys, this is not the time for the blame game, it's a time for giving and helping.

Stuart

[GrahamL]

:thumbsup: Stuart

[Peter Ward]

Stu given the historic record, this awful event was a certainty and to assume it was not going happen shows policy on this to be very much "head in the sand".

I've nothing but sympathy for the poor buggers that have lost so much and have already put my hand in my pocket.

Nations need all sorts of structures, but the NBN looks like fairy floss to me given recent events.

I'll quite happily go on the record for saying we need to get numerous fundamental systems (water, road, rail etc.) in place *before* we spend a motza on a fibre based comms system...which given recent events would have been washed away had it been in place.

[TrevorW]

I'm with you Peter, stuff the fibre optic network, I heard it was going to cost me more for internet when it arrives, costs for broadband is a ripoff now compared to some countries

I was appalled when the WA Govt said they were making a $1m donation to the Qld flood appeal yet they where going to spend $8m upgrading a restaurant and surrounding facilities to accommodate 53 heads of state attending the next GHOGM here

[Kal]

There are two ways to view this subject. The first argument is to use our engineering capabilities to invest in flood mitigation infrastructure, for example Wivenhoe dam. However, if Wivenhoe was designed to operate at a normal capacity of empty (which obviously gives the maximum benefit to flood mitigation) then it would provide no benefit with regards to supplying drinking water or supplying electricity through hydro electric means, which both offer economic benefits. The result, a compromise where the dam is built with 50% being used for drinking water and hydro electic supply, the next 50% up to the spillway being used for flood mitigation, a further 25% capacity while going over the spillway to cater for a 1 in 100,000 year event.

However, even if you were to invest the maximum in flood mitigation infrastructure, there are some areas where dams are simply not practical, and the brisbane river through brisbane has several sources, if you look at a map wivenhoe might affect a quarter (?) of the catchment area. This is where you have a look at the other argument - accept that floods will occur, and learn to live with it. Relocate homes and businesses that are in low lying areas, and restrict buildings in the peripheral areas to buildings that are flood resilient like the classical queenslander house on stilts. Somehow I don't see the pollies as having the balls to relocate tens of thousands of people though.

[Lee]

Levees in Brisbane? Probably possible, but we are built right up to the river in many areas, would have to be some pretty tall structures, over many kilometres. Easier to get out of natures way - not building low-set houses out of pine, paper and plaster on flood plains would be a start.
Then a 1000 year event occurs, a couple of cyclones now might do it, and we get a 7-8m flood despite Wivenhoe, and all bets are off almost regardless of what you do.

[h0ughy]

Time to think about things! As you would be aware Brisbane is built on floodplains of a coastal catchment. Given the typical soil type and the topography you are not going to be able to mitigate this area as there are far too many sub catchments and tributary streams that contribute to the Brisbane River, take for example Kalangour area – they had a raging 4m flood come through on the Tuesday when Brisbane did not. It’s all to do with the topography and the slope and the rainfall intensity and duration within the catchment areas. There are no real clear cut remedies in the majority of cases, except in some rural areas where a buffer zone can be utilised – but this is really subjective and determined by the terrain. The Wivenhoe Dam is mitigating a lot of water, but it is water from high up in the catchment, don’t forget that very heavy rainfall also fell below the Wivenhoe catchment zone and has been contributing to the majority of the flow as well. Everything adds up – and if they all arrive at similar times you end up with inundation that the poor folk are suffering up there now.

For those who like calculations you can determine the Rainfall runoff of the catchment very roughly using Manning’s formulae See here http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/ad083e/AD083e13.htm and this really only works for a few hectares, not huge square kilometres of catchments which of course are now the areas we are now talking about that are outside this level of calculation.

So have a quick tutorial here http://www.uq.edu.au/~e2hchans/civ3140/tut09_2.pdf

You then move onto Floodplain catchments. big picture stuff! But one thing to remember is that the ground was supersaturated to start with - so your Manning’s coefficient will be more like hardstand surfaced – 100% impervious.

I agree now is not the time for politics – go elsewhere for that. As for engineering remedies, you can only do so much. Without the rainfall time of concentration figures it would be very difficult to estimate outcomes, in some parts of the catchment they would have experienced rainfall that would equate to an event between 1%AEP and 0.5% AEP rather than the 1% AEP in most places that may have been experienced. Most places would have had a 10% AEP or greater – they all add up. http://www.bom.gov.au/hydro/has/rare_text.shtml If you look at the rainfall that Toowoomba experienced – they were well and truly over a 1% AEP and it showed, and they were on very steep slopes >6% for memory they got nearly 80mm rainfall within the hour period, over60mm falling in 30-40minutes. You can’t plan or mitigate for that.

[rat156]

So the pollies have to be able to see into the future as well now?

The NBN was planned for years ago, give RECENT events the money could probably be better spent elsewhere, but not at that time...

Get off your high horse Peter, there is no political agenda to be pushed with the floods.

Cheers
Stuart

[iceman]

Agree and agree. Time to lock this thread.