Binoculars..

[samos]

Hey fellas - brilliant forum. So informative. I'm very new to the scene, and for years i've wanted a telescope. However, after reading a few of the threads on binoculars, I think i've changed my mind. Binoculars seem perfect for someone as naive and new to this as myself, and I can pretty much take them anywhere.

What sparked my enthusiasm was last week when I was down at my mates farm, we have a big get together there once a year. We were out in a paddock, and I was amazed at how open the sky and how littered it was with stars etc. Something i've never seen before.

I'm looking for a very introductory (and easy to use, point and look if you will) set of binoculars. Somewhere in the vicinity of $150.00-$300.00.

http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-037A

or

http://www.spaceandastronomy.com.au/saxon-20x80-binoculars.htm

There's even a few in the 'zoom and focus free' section, but i'm not sure of the pro/cons of this variety?

Any information appreciated. I've read the beginners guide and that was good, but i'm still unsure where to go from here.

Thanks in advance,
regards

Sam

[casstony]

In the price range you're considering you could afford some higher quality bino's such as the Pentax 10x50 PCF. These are relatively light and not to hard to hold steady - you'll need a tripod or mount of some kind if you go much above 10x.

https://www.bintelshop.com.au/welcome.htm

Others here have more experience with bino's and there may be better options than these but I'm not aware of anything better for the price. Welcome to IIS :)

[erick]

Hi Sam

Perhaps some more reading before you decide:-

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-374-0-0-1-0.html

http://www.aoe.com.au/binocular_guide.html

http://www.astunit.com/faq/binocular.htm

http://www.cloudynights.com/category.php?category_id=76&pr=3

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/44730/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

There are a few reviews here:-

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/reviews.html

Cheers and :welcome: to IIS
Eric

[Allan_L]

Highly Recommend:

Orion 9x63 mini giants.

Very good (wide) field of view.
Not too strong, not to weak.
Good exit pupil size.
Long eye relief.
Fold down eyecaps.
Fairly light and compact.
Excellent for terrestial viewing too.

Tripod not needed but definitely helps.
Normal camera tripod (with $12 adapter) will do.

There were recommended to me by Mike at Bintels. (currently only $349)
Very pleased with the result. :thumbsup:

(Previously had a zoom binocular, what a waste for Sky viewing)
(going cheap if anyone interested :))

[samos]

Thanks fellas, appreciate it. Just out of curiosity, how many nights in the week/month on average do we have skies that are clear enough to view properly, without clouds interfering? (never really paid too much attention to it)
I'm thinking a good place to start is sky-high in mt dandenong. I like the idea of being able to use the binoculars without a tripod, but then when I want - adding one into the mix.

What does everyone thinking about Bintel? It's about 20 mins away from me, are they reputable as a vendor?

Thanks

regards,
Sam

[erick]

Yes Bintel have a good reputation.

I'm gathering you are in Melbourne. The answer to your question "how many nights in the week/month on average do we have skies that are clear enough to view properly, without clouds interfering?" depends on location. Ask the NT, Nth Qld folks now and they'll tell you their gear gets packed away for several months this time of year.

Melbourne is moving into a dry season (believe it or not!) so you can expect plenty of observing nights from now until July. But, of course, they are always on the nights you are otherwise busy, and not on the night you have planned to go out observing! Prepare to be very patient. If you are not, I suggest that you pick another hobby! :P

Depends what you want to see. For the Moon, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Mars, double stars and bright star clusters - you can work from your Melbourne back yard. For galaxies, globular star clusters, emission and reflection nebulae, you'll need to get well away from Melbourne - out towards Gembrook to the east, Romsey/Lancefield to the North, beyond Bacchus Marsh to the West and well down the Mornington Peninsular to the South. Just try different locations and see what you can see.

Remember, if you want to see fainter things, don't try while the Moon is in the sky. Also don't try until your eyes have adapted to the dark - about 20-30 mins minimum.

Good luck :thumbsup:

[dannat]

Sam, firstly - you need to decide if you want to hand hold them or mount them on a tripod.(please report back )
It is very difficult to hand hold steady anything above 10x magnification for any length of time.
for astronomy i really like 15x70 - for widish field of view & good mag.

[Allan_L]

Just to clarify the first number is the magnification and the second number is the apperture diameter.

Big apperture, more light, better for fainter objects.
However, too big a magnification with average aperture = CR@P ! Its like looking through a long narrow tube. Difficult to find your way around the sky. Frustrating for a beginner.

That is why the 9x63 are so good.

Also, dividing the apperture by the magnification gives you the exit pupil size. Too small is bad. Lioke a dot. Exit pupil should be 5 to 7 for best results, depending on your eye health, age etc.

Bintel are highly regarded here in Sydney too!
Knowlegable staff willing to spend time helping you.
Highly recommended.

[stephenb]

Weclome to the hobby Sam. Personally, I can highly recommend BinTel. Their staff are amateur astronomers themselves and their knowledge is exceptional. The staff will help you to no end to buy the best scope or binoculars for your needs, not just sell you the most expensive.

[samos]

You boys are brilliant. Top stuff. I'll go have a chat with them.

In response to what I want to look at - well, being a beginner - anything will amaze me. I'd definitely get frustrated if it was like looking through a straw, and I had a feeling the better the magnification, does not necessarily mean it's better in terms of what you see. Yes, initially i'd like to be able to simply hold the binoc's and look around. Eventually, as I become better - i'd get a tripod.

I might go into the store and have a chat with those around!

Thanks boys.

So 9x63 would be a good way to go?

[GrahamL]

I grabbed a pair of these from bintel a couple of years back and have been very happy with them.


http://www.opticsplanet.net/meade-9x63-roof.html

think they were a little under $200, can't be tripod mounted though.

good luck :)

[dannat]

Sam as you live IN Melb -as you aren't far from bintel 9x63 is a good size..but if you divide 63/9 = 7mm exit pupil. IN melb you are never going to be able to take advantage of this, as your own pupils will not open fully to 7mm (in a city its more like 4 or 5) - though for a beginner this can be confusing. in saying that though 9x is a really good magnification to hand hold & when you get to a dark country sky you will be able to take in all of the 63mm aperture (size of glass).
For this reason i would recommend a 10x50, something like a pentax pcf - which has the advantage of being waterproof/fogproof

If anyone is interested i could bring several pairs of binos to the Kangaroo Ground War Memorial Lookout Tower on eltham/yarra glen rd on one night this weekend - you could compare sizes & different magnification

[samos]

Ah thanks again fellas.

Our of curiosity, where are some good locations that aren't too far out where I could go to on a regular basis. Sky high is ~30 mins from me, but I imagine the distant city lights could be a problem, unless I stayed 30-40 meters below.

I'm in the SE suburbs of Melbourne (Vermont South). Any good locations 20-50km. Dannat has mentioned upper plenty region! I'm about 50-60 minutes or so away from mornington. Star gazing and fishing off the pier seems like a win win to me :thumbsup:

[erick]

While direct light is not good, the real problem is the illumination of the sky by the mass of lighting in the city. Just getting out of direct light doesn't solve that problem. Only km away can solve it.

Try here - Gembrook Sports Ground (50km - about an hour and nice drive). See here:-

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=55949&highlight=gembrook

Going there will also give you an idea of the sky problem. North, East and South are somewhat dark. West (in the direction of Melbourne) is all washed out and light. Same with South if you go to Romsey. Same with East from Bacchus Marsh. Same with North from MPAS.

Perhaps Johns Hill Reserve (26km - 40 mins - search Google maps)

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=24867&highlight=Johns+Hill+Reserve

[that_guy]

all two binos of mine broke... just my luck:(

[samos]

Hey felllas, bit the bullet and bought an entry level pair of 10x50's. Bintel were extremely helpful, i'd have no issues going back there.
I did want the model above for ~$350.00, as they had a larger field of view.. but unfortunately I checked the letter box before I went and had a nice insurance invoice waiting for me, along with car service this week.

They feel sturdy and well put together. I had a look outside last night, but it wasn't a good night - plus it was quite bright.

I definitely understand now why you wouldn't want a zoom over 10 - i'm struggling to hold them steady as is. Any tips? I bought a beginners book (heavens above - a binocular guide to the southern skies) and its quite helpful, particularly because it's Australian. Only about a third of the way through it, so haven't reached techniques/tips section :)

[dannat]

which model did you get?

[erick]

Good book!

Can you get near a high railing or the top of a car? Roll up a towel or get a small cushion and place the binoculars on that to steady them. You will have to get them near the edge so you can get your face in close enough to look through them. Doesn't help you get to high elevations, but will get you started. Good for the Jewel Box cluster in Crux this time of year - it's quite low early in the evening.

[ngcles]

Hi Sam & All,

I know I'm chiming in quite late here but I think you've made a good choice with the 10x50s Sam :thumbsup:. Mind you, the 9x63s would have been just as valid a choice. My 10x50s are now 34 years old and still my most used binoculars.

Just to note a couple of other things that might be helpful. There is a very cheap binocular mount that can be made out of scrap timber here:

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/howto/visualobserving/Image-Stabilize-Your-Binoculars.html

that really works well in helping to hold them steady. An even cheaper alternative is to rest them on top of an up-turned broom (if you are tall you will need a long-handled broom) but 10x50s are relatively easy to hand-hold steadily. If you don't believe me try the 70, 80 and 90mm binoculars first!

Fixed-focus binoculars are pretty poor -- they will be slightly mushy at all distances and particularly so on stars because stars are point sources and are therefore the most demanding on optics. Steer clear of them for astronomy.

Zoom binoculars are also a poor choice. They have generally narrower fields and will often be mushy on focus as well. Fixed magnification are best by some distance. Steer clear of zoom binos for astronomy.

Now moving on to roof-prism -v- porro-prism. In my opinion, porro-prism binoculars are inherently better than roof-prism design for astronomy. Roof-prisms typically loose 10-15% of the incoming light over porro-prisms and the image delivered to the eyepiece will accordingly be dimmer aperture -v- aperture. Roof-prisms throw away light but the advantage they have is in their slim, slightly more compact design. Roof-prism binos are also more tricky to collimate should they get bumped out of collimation (pretty rare) --porros are no more or less likely to be knocked out, but are simpler to fix.

There are a few books devoted solely to binocular astronomy and many astronomical magazines also devote a few column-inches to what you can see -- it might be worth a look there from time-to-time ...


Best,

Les D

[samos]

Thanks fellas.

I ended up with the Gerber model.

Have been waiting for a good night. It was cloudy last night, I wanted to sus out the moon. Haven't really had much time to take them out. I did have a good gaze at the stars, but really need to try the mop/broom trick (also mentioned in the book I have). My neck started to get real sore from the vertical gazing.

I could make out the handle of the teapot, and the middle glowing star which can't be seen to the naked eye. While the magnification isn't large, the enormous amount of light that I can take in is amazing. Just wish there were less street lights around my area, I really need to travel out to get a dark sky :/

The book I have (while good for star observation) doesn't really mention much about the planets (well it does, but not so much on how to find them). What will I be looking at (in terms of size). Will it be relatively similar to a large star, with differentiation in colour?

Thanks guys.

[erick]

You need some software that shows you where the planets are. This one is free:- www.stellarium.org and will do the job.


Best options right now are Mars and Saturn. Jupiter, Venus and Mercury are too close to the Sun at the moment.

Mars looks like a bright red/orange star at present - look for the brightest object to the North crossing the Meridian around 11:30pm. Saturn is a bit harder - a cream coloured "star" - not very bright, crossing the meridian about 3:30am - but it is well up in the NE when you will be looking at Mars at 11:30pm.

[samos]

Appreciate that eric! I think for now, I need to concentrate on making some form of stabilization system before I try and find anything. It really is difficult with the jitters, and i'm a coffee drinker which doesn't help.

I was thinking a painters pole (or mop), which allows back and forth swivel (as from what I've read, it's the left and right rotation which really impact what you see).

Anyone here done the mop/broom/painters pole trick? When I get a bit of extra time up my sleeve, i'll go for that wooden contraption :)

[that_guy]

what about that mirror reflection trick where you view the sky using a mirror so you don't strain your neck too much??

[erick]

Like this? ;)

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=51971

[dannat]

samos keep in mind binos are not really for planet observation with a couple of exceptions:
1. the phases of venus
2. picking up jupiter's galilean moons

there are a couple of others but its late

[samos]

Damn Eric, that's dedication!

[Allan_L]

It doesn't take too many sore necks to drive one to this sort of level.

I am part way through a similar project myself for my 9x63, even though I also have a BT100 with tripod and 45* eps.

Great to see it works!
Now to finish the project.

Oh, and SAMOS listen to dannat you should.
Knows of what he speaks he does.
Planets are not generally satisfactory through binos (of any size)

[dannat]

can i add to the debate re: mirrors when using binos..i personally (my brain) much prefers the true orientation binos provides - using a mirror then defeats this purpose.
I prefer a tall 6" tripod with a good head, and i usually have my observing chair - but standing is also OK

can i also add i find it much easier to find DSO's with the correct orientation that binos provides - either just locating objects or using charts

[samos]

Well boys, last night the sky here at 3133 was pretty clear. Moon was almost full, and had aligned itself perfectly with my driveway. Few people have asked me, why'd you get Bino's.. you just wasted money. Jump on the net instead and find a few pictures close up of the moon.

I can now happily say that i'd pay that amount of money again just for a 5 minute gaze. It was brilliant. Pictures from hubble, or any other scope for that matter don't do it justice. I could see the craters on the top right, and it was so bright. Hopefully the next few nights are clear as well, so I can show my father.

I can see now that when the moons out, how it dulls everything else. I'm not sure of the name, but the 3 stars aligned, with a handle above them (and one in the middle with a strange glow around it, not visible to the naked eye) was dimmer last night than usual.

I brought my chair out to stabilize and it worked very well (particularly because my driveway is slanted, and the positioning of the moon was perfect which allowed me to get on my knees for some leverage - however this will only work for objects ~45 degs from the ground (assuming directly up is 90)


When the budget allows, i'm definitely considering an amateur telescope (~$400.00 if possible) as I really wanted to zoom in more. Just something I can use to point and look at a little closer.


Long winded post yes, but I have to ask - to the right of the moon last night I saw a relatively bright star to the naked eye. However, when looking at it through the binoculars it was very red/orange. I'm colourblind-ish, but I got my brother to confirm it.

Mars? Or another star? If I remember, blue-ish tinged stars are the hottest, and red is a star towards the end of it's life cycle and very cool??

[erick]

Answers/comments:- :)

Three stars aligned - Orion's belt within the constellation of Orion. Very distinctive three bright stars almost in an evenly space line. Visible from every major city in the world because they fall on the celestial equator. Just above that ("above" to we southern hemispherians) is Orion's sword containing the Great Orion Nebula - M42.

Directly up, is the zenith and it is at 90 deg elevation above the horizon - also called the altitude - altitude goes from 0 deg at horizon to 90 deg at the zenith.

Mars - how close does it get to the Moon tonight? Sometimes, the Moon will pass in front of Mars - occulting it. But the Moon occults many stars every night as it moves relative to the background stars. Sometimes it occults a bright star. If you are watching, you can see the star vanish behind the dark limb of the Moon, Get your timing right and you can watch that happen with your binoculars!

Re stars, colours, heat etc - listen to lectures 31, 32 and 33:-

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast141/Audio/

And no, you didn't waste your money! :D

[stephenb]

You certainly didn't waste your money. Binos are a great investment! And there's nothing like lying back on a deck chair under a dark sky with a pair of binos, just wandering aimlessly around the Milky Way!

[samos]

Thanks fellas!

Just found out my mate has a spare tripod, I think I can use it to create something for the bino's, even though they don't have a mount. Brilliant.

Full moon, too.

[samos]

I know this is ****, but how **** is it?

http://www.redwrappings.com.au/product/1000330&name=Reflector+Telescope+-+Saxon+F767AZ++

I only ask because I can get it for free :)

[dannat]

the mount is crap but it will let you look at a few things if you are patient

[Luna]

Hooray for thread revival!
My grandpa heard I was becoming interested in astronomy and he let me borrow his old binoculars. I've tried a couple of nights to use them but I'm having trouble. I'm not sure if its because they are old, not good enough or whether I'm just not focussing them correctly but I can't seem to get a clear image. It always looks blurry or like the colours are trying to separate out from each other, no matter how much I adjust them. I think I did actually see a moon near jupiter though, so I was still excited! :lol:

Anyway they are Tasco brand, fully coated, 7x50 CFCBLEWM. (I have no idea what that big code means :P )
I can adjust the diopter on the right eye (hope thats the right word) but there isn't one on the left. And then its called the focussing wheel in the middle I think? Either way I've played with both of these and I'm not having much luck. If anyone has any tips or suggestions, let me know! Thanks! :)
(And yes I did read the binoculars basic guide which was very good, now I just have to remember it all :P)

[dannat]

I tend to use both eyes & use the centre focus. Then close the eye without the individual eye focus, adjust the individual eyepiece focus while looking thru with that eye, with that eye adjusted now open both & readjust the centre focus to make sure it's fine

[Luna]

Thanks Daniel, I'll have to try what you suggested. Last night I fiiiinally got the chance to see the moon for the first time! O.M.G I can't believe how beautiful it is! I mean I've seen pics of the moon but to actually see it for myself in all it's crated glory was aaamazing :love:
Also the moon was really easy to get into focus! It just seems like stars and planets are being difficult :shrug:

[Octane]

Annie,

You viewed the Moon on a good night, too. I think it's roughly first quarter, so all the good craters are visible.

The ultimate test of a lens (or, binoculars) is focussing on point sources of light, which stars are.

The colour bleed you mentioned is likely chromatic aberration. This happens when a point source of light doesn't come to a single point of focus. Usually you will see red or blue fringing.

Good quality optics can account for this aberration. But, as with all quality items, they come with a price tag to match.

H

[brian nordstrom]

:) Thanks Eric and happy b/day , good advise . except for one thing ....
My new NG 127 apo and mount and things that ariived just before christmas ,,, I will be fiddling with this until the dry comes around and as you say all the rest of my gear is packed away except for my 8x56 celestron's , one of my favorites .:thumbsup:
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

;) I can see jupiters cloud bands in my 8x56's mounted and steady .
Brian.

[James Woo]

I observed Jupiter last night with my Fujicon 12x50 bino.Could not make out the four major moons and Jupiter was just a dancing blob of light!
With my 125mm refractor at 100x, Jupiter was just the size of a pencil eraser head and its four moons are just pin point lights.The two cloud belts were visible but the great spot wasn't!

[brian nordstrom]

:( sounds like another night of bad seeing there James . Perfect nights are few and far between .
Have a good new years eve . :D
Brian.

[OICURMT]

Just bought a set of these here in the USA for $49.95 shipping included...

Handheld, there's a bit of jumping around unless I'm in the lounger with my elbows resting on the arms.

Got my fathers tripod out, great improvement (obviously), so it looks like I'm going to DIY a bino-tripod of some type when I get back to Perth...



This is a great link... thanks!

Happy New Year!
OIC!

[Ronnie]

G'day All ,
I am confused between getting No Focus or Focus WA or not binoculars .

I can't find a definitive answer looking for reviews are useless as many are just product review by companies

MTIA

Ronnie

[dannat]

Ronnie I don't like the no focus binoculars, as my eyes are different & they don't suit. Focusing isn't all that d ifficult

[Ronnie]

Thank$
Some like Celestron say Astronomical no focus .
I just want to make sure i don't get the wrong ones hence my questions .
Have a great day .

[dannat]

Yep they are set to infinity focus, but the cheaper ones I would stay away from
Steiner I know do a decent no focus but it's not cheap

[Ronnie]

Thank$

So no focus are good for general astronomy viewing ?

[brian nordstrom]

:) As Daniel said , Ronnie the cheeper non focus binoculars are ok for terrestial viewing but to look at the stars , moom etc you need exact focus to see these at their best , and they will give your eyes a real work out ( headache ) trying to compensate for the slight out of focus.
If thats all you have dont be afraid to use them to learn a bit of the night sky .
Also the Senier , Zeiss and others are in the 2000 dollar bracket so most of us can only dream .;). They are beautiful but for that price you would get a very , very nice Telescope .
Brian.