Truckies down a few pegs....

[Peter Ward]

Yes...I've been on the Hume Highway again. In a car this time. I was appauled by the lack of thought/behaviours I saw.

Why?

1) For the truckies: If you can't see 75 metres in front of you....say due to torrential rain...them don't travel at a speed faster than you can see/react/stop in!

2) For motorists/car drivers: If it's raining *really* heavily on the highway.
*don't* put your hazzard lights on and stop!

The number of cars I saw today that stopped/pulled over on the Hume due to a thunderstorm/heavy rain amazed me....these people I could only describe as somewhere between being a) scared of driving in the wet to b) plain stupid to c) suicidal

I am amazed no one was killed. Trucks at 100km/hr. Cars crawling to stopped. Madness!!

Sure, slow down for the conditions. But don't stop on a 110km/hr national highway because it's wet.

[Kevnool]

Thank goodness i dont live over that way then.
Cheers Kev.

[Chillie]

Peter, If a driver can't see where he/she is going, it is much safer to pull up well off the road and wait until it is safe to continue than to keep driving.

Take a chill pill and relax.

[Peter Ward]

Let me spell it out:

One drongo slows to say 20km/hr, outside lane, on a really wet 110km/hr limit road.

Truckie still does 100km/hr, and can't see much due same downpour.

Finally, truckie sees 20km/hr car, swerves left. But, due car in left lane (yes I keep to the left!) might take me out, and/or 6-10 cars parked in break-down lane.

I saw it all, in real time, today, sans the impact, as the inner lane was clear, and I put my foot down to give the truckie some room. (Ah ha! Speed can save! :) )

As for the FW in the right lane...he/she probably had no idea. Should have license confiscated, and maybe a $10,000 fine. A few lashes of the rattan would have been helpful to re-inforce the lesson as well

Cheesh. :shrug: Chill pill? Nah, when drongoes try to kill me it doesn't work.

[mithrandir]

I'm going with Peter.

You should never be driving at a speed that you can not stop in the distance you can see. That applies as much to cars as trucks.

For most of the Hume there is nowhere you can pull off that is far enough away from the traffic to be safe, and being parked with the hazard lights on might mislead someone into thinking that's where the road goes.

Have the lights on, keep left and take an exit if you aren't comfortable continuing.



Which all goes to prove the point. The keep left law is never enforced, so people never learn. You have to hit them in the hip pocket to have any notice taken.

[Lumen Miner]

I have bitten my tounge for a while in regards to your comments / posts as you seem to think you are right about everything in regards to our roads no matter the situation, but your drawing a thin line between ranting and absolute stupidity.

I'm not even going to bother about asking you for more details on the senario, as you seem to be determined to live in your own little box no matter what others have to say. This sadens me as a wish sometimes to converse with you on such matters


You do realise your posts more often than not, in regards to said topics come across not only nieve but of a somewhat trollish nature.

You have a way of wording things to encourage others to, "bite back" insuing a debate in which you will never accept others opinions.
Given that why bother commenting / making threads if you won't give others remarks any grace at all...

Lets me guess, everyone was just pulling over for no reason, conditions were adequate to drive in and everyone should be as confident as you or get off the road?
Well guess what? They did, they pulled over, most probably because they were scared of the conditions. I have pulled over in torrential rain on the Hume before, granted it was probably worse than the conditions you saw, but I felt well within my right to do so, they probably felt the same.

Give people less skilled than you a break Peter, we are all more than aware that you have near perfect driving skills and seem to be the be all and end all of drivers. Perhaps you should try and see things from others POV.
If they are so in-experienced that they feel they need to pull over in heavy rain when they do not, maybe it is indeed better they are off the road than running into you through in-experience.

Ever considered a career as a disgruntled driving tutour? I reckon you would have it down pat.


Don't get me wrong, I indeed agree with you in most cases especially with the truckies still going full speed. Slow moving cars on a freeway do cause accidents and some of their manuvers are dumb-founding to say the least.

[norm]

I was on the F3 today and the number of people passing me at 115-120k's was unabelievable....as luck would have it, no highway patrol.

To make matters worst, then you had L platers on 80k's - talking about screwing the flow of traffic:mad2:. Surely there should be some restrictions for L platers using the freeway - it was bloody dangerous. The only alternative that I can see is that they be allowed to travel at least 100km/h.

Thats my rant.
Norm

PS: there are d$ckheads on the freeway all the time with no spacial concept of speed/distance and most of all - common bloody sense.:screwy:

[Lumen Miner]

If they keep to the left like they should, there should not be a distruption to the flow of traffic.

The police do a will enforce the keep left rules, my sister in-law was recentley booked after not merging left quick enough. She was not intending on staying in the right lane, just was unable to merge left until traffic allowed her to. She was booked for travelling in the right hand side lane.
Although that is her side of the story, i'm sure she was just lagging in the right lane without merging quick enough. So she deserved to be booked.

[GrahamL]

So what your really saying Pete is both you and the truck driver were
driving at speed well outside what the conditions would throw up to the inexperianced driver on our roads ?

[Peter Ward]

Maate.... I can take that on the chin.

What I found weird was there were virtually no cars "pulled over" due the conditions going south. North, there were dozens. (It's called "group think"..look it up ;) )

Sure it was heavy rain. But nothing worse than the Sydney burb's get this time of year.

What I can't forgive is a driver virtually stopping in the right lane on a 110km/hr highway. In low visibility, that kills people.

If you are scared shi$less driving in such conditions, then get some advanced driver training. In the aviation world it's cut and dry. If you are a VFR pilot and fly in IFR you'll probably die.

The truckies driving behaviour was wreckelss at best, to plain stupid.

Even more so the driver in the right lane. One more link in the chain and several families may not have got home today.

End of rant.

[Peter Ward]

No. I was doing about 70km/hr (left lane). No problemo. Beyond that I was not confident of seeing the road well enough to stop in time due poor vis.

The truck was doing the limit (100km/hr) in the right lane.

The problem was the driver doing 20km/hr, also in the right lane (whom I passed seconds earlier...thinking WTF???).

[Lumen Miner]

I agree with you, but you baited your thread with the "pulled over" comment.
That was the only thing I dis-agreed with. Frickin' idiots in the left or right lane going under the speed limit is shocking, couple that with trucks going the speed limit is just an accident waiting to happen.


On a secondary note, although I was abrupt about your thread, I did not resort to childish remarks such as "Look it up". I am aware of the "group think" concept and believe perhaps you should look it up and actually have a think about it before assuming I would need to "look it up". You maybe older than me but i'm not 5 years old.

The example of a "Group think" makes absolutley no sense in a driving situation like this. It was a concept originally illustrated where-in a group responds to external pressures (each other) and react simultaniously to come to an irrelevant conclusion often with dis-regard to routine they have found to be valid.

The drivers were not effected by "Group think", they were responding to a situation. They did not spontainiously pull over because they saw others pulling over, they pulled over because they felt they needed to and saw a relevant area where others had done the same.

Group think refers to situations where you would not come to that conclusion, unless others stimulated you to do so. You have no idea why they pulled over, you are assuming it was group think mentality.

Many examples of group think have been illustrated in the past, most where-in a group is knowledgable of a situtation and an individual being out of the loop is not prepared to risk themselves not matter how stupid the others are being.

I don't believe you summoning the term "Group think" has any merit what so ever in the example you illustrated, but that's just my opinion perhaps I should "look it up" again. :)

[Peter Ward]

Just for the record.

My apologies if I seem a little emotional over this.

I ask myself was speed a factor?

Yes it was.

A car was going *way* too slow and a truck way too fast.

The bit I didn't like was, I was in the middle.

[Lumen Miner]

I know that feeling, sucks. Especially when you are blasting your horn, with no where to go but off the road at 110km/h.

I don't think there is any reason for you to apologise. Adds for an interesting topic.

[Peter Ward]

It was wrong of me to assume you were not conversant with the term.

That said, I disagree with your interpretation. :)

Walking down Pitt street mall (with say a friend) stopping, looking up and pointing is guaranteed to illicict a similar (look up) response.

I'd suggest Group Think is a little further down the same continuum.

Spouse says "Oh, they've put on their hazzard lights and stopped" maybe you should too! (many did)

What I can't reconcile is why the southbound traffic didn't do the same (virtually none)

[mithrandir]

I think we are all agreed the car steerer (anybody that idiotic can't be called a driver) was an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

I know you've driven a truck before Peter, but was it raining or foggy at the time?

Because the driver is much higher up, and therefore further from the spray and light backscatter, he can see further head than car drivers. This is even noticeable in a full size 4WD (eg Landcruiser, Patrol).

This observation is not intended to excuse traveling ridiculously faster than the surrounding traffic. Someone else's stupidity can include you in their accident.

[Peter Ward]

No time for the horn!

Just a Kenworth looming large in the mirrors and me accelerating (wishing I'd not taken the wagon :) )

[Peter Ward]

No it wasn't :doh: and ...good point! They've gone up a peg or two :)

Then again, I have aquaplaned 18 (aircraft) wheels. Not much fun.

[Lumen Miner]

I think you may have you definition of "Group think" a lil' bit mixed up.
It is not a term coined to define a reaction to stimulus, such as your illustrated example of a person making someone look up. The term "Group think" was an expression coined by William H. Whyte whilst referencing situations where-in a person dis-regards the obvious situation, ignoring their "learned" responces to fall into line with the majority, for no other reason than the rest are doing so.

It was raining, and this would possibly merit pulling over. That makes the "Group think" term irrelevant. Did "Group think" make the first person pull over? No.

If it was sunny, good conditions, perfect road and someone started a chain of pulling over for no reason what-so ever, except that they saw three cars in a line pulled over, that would then be considered "Group think"


I can see where you are coming from, but you are wrong with your terminology.

[Peter Ward]

A moot point.

The possibility also exists in irrational decision was made by driver/spouse/inlaw to stop in conditions did not warrant it, and by doing so put the group a greater risk.

Would you not call that group think?

In any event, the truck driver had few options, one was impacting into the multiple parked cars. Happily that didn't happen today.

[Lumen Miner]

It is not a moot point, it is what the term "Group think" is totally hinged upon.

What you are describing is a driver making an assesment of the situation and then joining the group, they were not pressured, intimidated, ostresised or coersed into it.

That is called decision making.

"Group think" in its most primitive definition, is a situtation in which direct responces to stimulus are degredated, by the primal instinct to conform to the group regardless of it making logical sense to the individual.
The term "Group think" is only ever used when there is no external judgement / decision made by the individual prior to conforming with the group.

If you make your own decision whether it is influenced or not by the situation (other cars pulled over) prior to joining the group, it is not considered "Group think". It is joining the group because of a relevant reason.... it's raining heavily.

[Lumen Miner]

Interesting example, that may have more relevance to you.

This exert describes situations of "Group think".
Making a decision (whilst taking into account your situation) to follow the group, is not "Group think".

Some rules in the flying community and the Air Force in general, are often overlooked when the crew has been out on the road for several weeks or months and is experiencing the all too insidious "get-homeitis." Weather requirements suddenly look more like a suggestion than the binding rules they are. Minimum essential equipment lists abruptly become open to interpretation in ways that the author most likely never intended. And we must never forget the golden oldie impromptu air show of, "My parents have a farm down this way and nobody will mind if we make a couple of low passes for the family. And besides, I did it the other day with so-and-so and they had no problem with it."

These types of situations become very dangerous because members of the crew may feel intense negative peer pressure to go along with an otherwise ill-advised course of action. Even if the individual suggesting the shaky idea surveys the crew to get their opinion, there is still a good chance that individuals will not speak up even if they don't like the idea or think it's unsafe. The likelihood of receiving honest and accurate feedback in these situations also quickly diminishes if the proposal is coming from an individual of higher rank or popularity amongst the group. Some may think that this is an occurrence that can only happen to a young or inexperienced crewmember, or that we are all encouraged to give our input honestly when asked, but accident statistics would indicate otherwise. This is a recurring problem that knows no age or rank barriers and costs the Air Force millions annually in lost equipment and personnel. We must work as a team to reduce, if not eliminate, its tragic results.

If you see the links in the accident chain materializing, and start to feel the preverbal hairs on the back of your neck standing up, its time to open your mouth and discuss the situation as a crew. It does not mean that every decision needs to be debated in detail or agreed upon as a community; however, the working environment should be such that opinions are respected even if not always acted upon.

This is not strictly a flight related problem and can often manifest itself the strongest in our junior ranks. No one enjoys being the squeaky wheel, and our younger members can often see their friends and popularity wane when they go against the grain. Hundreds of lives each year could be saved if friends would act like friends and stop that person from driving when they've had to much to drink, applying the principles of ORM before that rock climbing trip, or telling your friends they have been driving too long.

It's often hard to go against the group and the strength of their ideas, but if you see the unplanned/unauthorized low-level developing, or a group of friends who have been drinking and want to drive, or hear the "let me show you what this aircraft can do" statement, own up to your individual responsibility as a crewmember and say, "Stop! Let's talk about this." These are just a few examples of the negative group dynamics that have plagued the military and society in general, for years. The group you go against today may be around tomorrow simply because you were not afraid to be a leader and speak up!

[KenGee]

This an easy problem to fix . Set the speed limit to 80kph first speeding ticket you loose your license for 6 months and back to p plates. Second offence 1 year, third forever, fourth jail. problem solved, how may lives is your travel time worth?

Sydney to Melbourne is 880 km’s so dropping to 80 will problem increase travel time by 2 to 3 hours. Just think of the lives that maybe saved and the fuel.

[iceman]

This thread is full of over-emotion and far too many people bypassing the profanity filter with $$ and @@ and whatever else.

Edit your posts before I delete them or delete the whole thread.

If you can't post without keeping your emotions and swearing in-check, then don't post.

[Peter Ward]

I'll paraphrase your group-think definition above:

"( These ) situations become very dangerous because the driver may feel intense negative family pressure to go along with an ill-advised course of action (stopping on a Highway in low visibility with trucks still doing their legal limit of 100km/hr ) "

We could go around in circles over this, but neither of us know the group dynamic inside the cars involved.

My assessment of the situation (and almost without exception also by south-bound drivers) was to slow down to a reasonable clip.

The truckies didn't slow at all. But that may well have been due to them being well above the spray height of the car traffic and could see fairly well.

The driver that nearly stopped in the right lane was an accident waiting to happen....in fact, it nearly did.......that instance probably wasn't a case of group think...just a really bad decision.

[mill]

First of all, i am from europe and i have never seen worse and more scared drivers as in Australia.
This rain situation on the Hume highway is just going back to allowing parents to teach their children to drive.
With this i mean as an example: my wife teaches my kids to drive and they stay scared and way to careful.
After months of driving lessons from my wife, my daughter didn't get anywhere and was still scared of other traffic around her.
Then i was teaching her to drive and forced her to drive the speed limit all the time (before she was doing 15K under).
After a while she became a confident driver and looked ahead.
With this i am saying that if you don't teach children defensive driving and also confident driving, the traffic will stay crap for a long time to come.
Some examples: going onto/off the freeway with 60K/hr, stopping at a roundabout (even when nothing is approaching from the right).
A tiny bit of rain and people start to drive slow straight away.
You can pick out the drivers who are confident and are looking ahead straight away (they are the ones who keep driving but also adjust to slower drivers).
Also a lot of people think they are the only ones on the road and whenever they switch on their indicator, it means they have right of way and they just move in your lane and you just have to get out of the way for them.
PS: i still don't understand why people slow down on the freeway while they can do that on the long off ramp and only start to speed up as soon as they are on the freeway(who is so dumb to go onto the freeway with 60 to 80Km/Hr is beyond me, but i see it every day).

[that_guy]

i know this is a bit off topic but I saw a gang of MOPEDS(!)in the highway doing way below the speed limit because their little moped engines couldn't handle it... isn't there a sign when entering highways, freeways and motorways where it says No Mopeds, tractors, animals, bicycles, and pedestrians??

Just thought of getting this off my chest...

[Kal]

I was coming home from Newcastle one night going across the mooney mooney bridge when the rain was so torrential that I had to slow down to 40 km/h and I could barely make out the lane markers/concrete barrier let alone the car in front of me. If any moron truckie was doing 100km/h in those conditions then they should be shot in the head.

[Barrykgerdes]

I don't think mopeds are included in Australia
Barry

[Louwai]

I fully agree Martin.
90% of the problems & driver attitude on our roads is caused by parents teaching their kids to drive & passing on all their bad habits.

ALL driver training should be done by a certified Driving Instructor.

Earlier today, coming home from the airport, there's a L plater sitting on 4oklm/hr in the right lane & holding up traffic. PLENTY of oportunity to move over, but no. Just stayed in the right.
It was a young girl with (I assume) dad in the passenger seat.
Dad should be booked...........

[Barrykgerdes]

Whatever is said about the trucks is irrelevant. They own the roads curtesy of the truck transport lobby that funds the political parties so they can do what they like.

Is that enough to close the thread Mike?

Baz