K3CCD Tools Drift Explorer

[DavidTrap]

Hi All,

I've been searching through IceInSpace and multiple other websites tonight trying to work out what I will need to try Drift Aligning with software assistance. I've read the guides on Drift Explorer on this site and it sounds fabulous.

My questions are:

1. What webcams can I use with K3CCD?
2. Specifically, where do I buy one?
3. Not really interested in modifying something - what is available off the shelf?
4. I have access to a friends LPI - it's about 4-5yrs old - would this work?
5. I have an Orion Star Shoot Autoguider - is there any software I can use with this?

Thanks in advance - have very little knowledge about webcams for astronomy...

Regards
David T

[bojan]

Hi David,
I am just playing with this software :-)
Answers to your questions (I am sure many others will also reply) :
1) any camera will work, as long as it is installed in Windows.
I am using old Philips Vesta, unmodified (for now).
2) Ebay for older models? DS, K-Mart, any other big store..
3) Any model will do.
4) I do not know..
5) ditto

[[1ponders]]

Hi David. Once you learn the process you won't regret it and will wonder what all the drama over drift aligning is all about. From a Raw start I can be aligned within 20min max (assuming no questions on how to do it from other astronomers :lol: ) to within 1 arcsec/min drift in both Altitude and Azimuth.

Ok your questions.
1 & 3. Any video for windows camera (vfw), WDM cameras, and Meade DSI (there are others but I wouldn't recommend them for drift aligning really. Better off with a webcam). I still use and prefer to use the toUcam 840 or 900. There is just no drama with them. Plus its easy to get 1.25" adapters for them. Also The Imaging Source Cameras do a fine job as well, though the exposure settings can cause a bit of mucking around at times. The other camera you may want to try as its basically a toUcam 840 is the Celestron Nextstar though I've not used one.

2. Telescopes-Astronomy (Matthew Lovell) in SA sells the ToUcams (not sure where else). Bintel and Steve Massey at Myastroshop sell The Imaging Source gear. I'm sure there are others.

4.Curse the Demon Gods of Astronomy for their callus pranks and delights. Run and don't stop running. Yes it will work but you'll probably wish you'd never heard of LPI by the time you are finished. I'm sure jjjnettie will pipe up with her experiences here. :lol:

5. No experience with this camera but if you can load it via the WDM selection it should work. I know the QHY5 won't work unfortunately and the OSSA is much the same thing. Only my guess though. It would be great if it did cos then you'd have a drift camera, a planetary camera and an autoguider.

good luck on the journey

[peter_4059]

David,

The only problem with using a webcam is finding a bright enough star in the correct locations for drift aligning. You'll need to find one near the intersection of the celestial equator and the meridian and one on the celestial equator near the horizon. I normally use my DSI II and have no problem finding a star however it can be quite difficult with a normal webcam because it is nowhere near as sensitive.

Peter

[[1ponders]]

True Pete if you go for exactly the intersection, but realistically you can drift from anywhere within about 5 deg either side of the CE so finding a bright enough star won't be a prob. The only thing I use my ToUcam 840 these days is for drift aligning and unless it's cloudy I've never found I can't find a star. Having said that though if the camera is going to double up as a guide camera then the ability to expose for about 2 sec is a definite bonus for both drift aligning and autoguiding.

[[1ponders]]

There is one accessory that I would suggest, though its not essential by any means, and that is a good quality flip mirror. Either that or make sure your finderscope is really well aligned with your camera and OTA especially if its a long FL scope. A flip mirror just makes it so much easier to find and center a star.....oh and also an illuminated reticle....and ...how much were you wanting to spend :D

[jjjnettie]

Meade LPI.....
It's not sensitive enough for the job.
The only reason I use one for drift aligning is that I happened to have one and K3 recognises it.
As Paul said, run and keep on running.

[DavidTrap]

Thanks for the info guys,

Will look into the cameras and see what I can sort out.

Regards
David T

[DavidTrap]

Couple more questions:

Do I need a modified ToUcam? Do I just need the basic camera from Telescope-Astronomy and the 1.25inch mount?

Regards
David T

[bojan]

I do not think so.. However, you will need brighter stars for the task.
Modification enables camera to take longer exposures.

[DavidTrap]

Thanks again,

I'm having a look at some second hand DSI II Pros - might be an option.

Regards
David T

[DavidTrap]

Hi Peter,

Just wanting to check - do you use any filters with your DSI II Pro when drift aligning? (I expect no, but just checking)

Ta
David

[[1ponders]]

If you get a modded ToUcam then you will need to make sure you have a parallel port on your computer. Seriously though, think about getting a DMK or DBK if you are not getting a ToUcam. I've used ToUcam (900 and 840), DMK, DBK, DSI, LPI, ATiK along with a few others and I keep coming back to the ToUcam because it works first time everytime.

I've been drift aligning with K3 for about 5 years now and 99% of the time I used a ToUcam and I've never had a problem finding a star whether I was using an ED80 or or an 8" SCT (which is not needed by the way, you can get just as effective alignment with an ED80 as you can with an 8"sct). The ToUcam can be an issue if you want to autoguide and don't have anyway of adjusting where your guidescope points, but add a Focal Reducer or use a DMK/DBK and you are set for both worlds.

[DavidTrap]

I have an Orion Star Shoot Autoguider that I am happy with for guiding, so am not interested in using a new camera for guiding.

I don't have a parallel port on my computer (MacBook running Windows XP), so a modified ToUcam is a problem - I thought it might be, and am glad I you have confirmed this.

I can buy a new DSI II Pro for around $500, which is cheaper than the DMK. I'm not looking for this as an imaging chip - my long-term plan is to persevere with my DLSR for another year or two and then upgrade to a proper CCD (I look at this as cheaper than buying a good quality DSLR and modifying it - I also have Nikon gear, so the Canon-Nikon debate is on my mind too)

I have seen a couple of recent DSIs sold on the web, and they aren't much cheaper than new - I understand the DSI prices dropped recently.

Last weekend I tried a drift alignment technique using the DSLR. I was happy with the results, but it required me getting into some rather strange positions to focus and align stars through the DSLR - a DSI might be kinder on my neck.

So many things to consider...

DT

[Manav]

Just a quick question is anyone aware of programs apart from K3CCD tools which are compatible with QHY5 guider?

I've read somewhere that PHD Guider and GuideMaster have a similar feature.

Has anyone tried using them? There is also a method mentioned here http://www.southern-astro.com.au/php/guides/lx200gpspreciseCCD.php which may help but again not sure about the camera compatibility.

[[1ponders]]

Many programs have X hairs or similar or a graph that can be used. What K3 has over the majority is that it will give you a numerical readout of what your drift is in arcsec/min. Once you get that to 0 (or close) in both Alt and Az you know you are polar aligned, you don't have to wait for graphs to move or stars to move off cross hairs.

Phd does have the cross hairs and a graph but I'm not sure if the graph can be used if you are not guiding. :shrug:

[Manav]

Thanks Paul! I think I may experiment around with a spare webcam at home and see if I can get results. In the meantime I will go ahead with the QHY5 so I can finally put this autoguider saga to end.

[[1ponders]]

If you have a webcam already then that is all you need. Take the lens out cut the end of a film canister and fix that to the webcam. The canister will fit very nicely into the eyepiece holder. The trickiest bit will be making sure the stuck on canister is as centered over the chip as you can get it. Just so its easier to align you finder and webcam and when slipping in eyepieces to find a star

[peter_4059]

I have the IV/IR filter permanently fitted but it is not necessary to make the camera work - just keeps the dust off the sensor.

[DavidTrap]

Thanks for all that guys.

I'll have a think about this over the next day or so and hopefully come to a decision. I'm not keen on a Webcam - I can't use a modified one with my computer. I also want something sensitive as I want to use this in light-pollution. From what I've read a dedicated CCD might be the go.

Regards
DT

[peter_4059]

David,

I notice you are also in Brisbane. If the clouds ever clear I'd be happy to show you the difference between my Neximage webcam (which is basically a Toucam in a different box) and my DSI II when it comes to finding a star for drift aligning (in the city). I have a 10" newt and an ED80 we can try. Send me a PM if you are interested.

Peter

[DavidTrap]

Thanks Peter, PM sent

DT

[RobF]

Whoa - stay calm and don't give up listening to what Paul's saying - he really knows this stuff. I have a ToUcam I bought 2nd hand from IIS classifieds and an Orion SSAG. I've tried all sorts of things to get the SSAG going with K3 JUST for drift aligning with no success. Having a ToUcam on hand is worth it just to be able to use K3 for drift aligning in the field (I very rarely both at home having marked the tiles out in the back yard for the tripod legs). It also makes a very useful and relatively cheap planetary camera.

You definitely DON'T need a modified webcam - that's only for long exposure shots - you're much better off using a DSLR or CCD camera, so no need for parallel port.

There are many other software solutions for polar alignment. Many swear by Alignmaster. The graph and numerical readout in K3 are just so intuitive though - best software I've even been able to find after trying many. You could use the SSAG with any guiding program and manually monitor the star on the screen, but a graph and readout are SO much nicer.

Final thought - to get really nice astrophotographs you need to visit a dark sky site. The ground is nearly always uneven, you don't know exactly where S is, ITS REALLY DARK, and everything that can go wrong always does! So anything that makes drift aligning fast and easy is a godsend.

+1 for K3, ToUcam and flip mirror :thumbsup:

(whew, I'm getting emotional - must be all those times it took me 2 hours in the dark to get drift aligned....:P)

[DavidTrap]

Thanks for the advice Rob.

I've sourced a DSI II Pro (without filters). Hopefully this will be as good as expected!

Regards
David T

[Manav]

Not having used k3ccd does it allow you to use the canon 50d as a video input source?

[[1ponders]]

Not that I'm aware of Yugant. You can control the camera exposure and capture, but unless you could get the video component to be recognized as VFW, WDM or TWAIN I dont think K3 will do it. If you get it to work though don't forget to post the detials. :thumbsup:

Remember if you haven't downloaded and used K3 before you've got a 35 day fully functioning full trial when you download. Its definitely worth the download the testing.

[DavidTrap]

"and enough cables to choke a horse."

Paul, I love your signature line - I can relate to it well.

May I suggest a trip to Bunnings and purchase yourself some spiral wrap to bundle your cables together - I've made a "wiring loom" for my scope including power, USB, autoguiding, camera control, blah, blah, blah. It is much easier to keep track of in the dark and much faster to setup as everything is where it should be. If you want, I'll post some pictures next time I set it up in daylight.

DT

[fo.manush]

This might be beyond the scope of this discussion but, can the Toucam be used for auto guiding.

[Manav]

See here (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/astrophotography/Autoguiding_mk2.htm). You may want get a guidescope and the GPUSB setup.

[[1ponders]]

I've looked at the spiral wrap idea David, but I setup right next to the mount and use velcro wrap. I'm always changing the rig around and using different camera and otas etc so it easier with the wrap when I set up just to wrap all the power cables together and keep them seperate to the data cables. Once everything is wrapped it just gets attached to the mount via sticky sided velcro stuck all over the mount and tripod.

Gotta love that velcro wrap.


Been using it for years and have only in the past 12 months or so move over to DMK/DBK

[mithrandir]

Ditto.



Maybe two. One for high frequency signals like USB. One for everything else. Aim to minimize the potential interference.

[Moon]

Yes you can do this in PHD, but you need to "disable guide output" under the brain settings. I only do this when I'm measuring PE, never tried it for drift alignment. I might give it a try.

[AlexN]

I drift aligned once using my QHY5 and PHD with the crosshairs, I clicked on the star being watched, and down in the status bar it tells where the star is in X and Y on the sensor. Providing you know which way is N, S, E, W, you can quite easily drift align like that... you can see steady movements pixel to pixel within a couple of seconds by watching the status bar... Took me about 40 minutes to get it aligned well enough to run 20 minute exposures.

Now using a Toucam + K3 it takes about 20 minutes..

I'm a big supporter of K3 Drift Explorer...

[DavidTrap]

Evening All,

I've finally had the chance (read time, clear weather and inclination) to try out K3CCDTools for Drift Aligning.

BLOODY BRILLIANT!

First attempt and I was rewarded with a "<5' from the pole message" from the Autostar when I did the GOTO alignment after drift aligning!!!!!

It took a while to sort it all out and which numbers to read, but I've now written some instructions to help remember which way to adjust the scope depending on whether dec or RA is positive or negative.

I'm hoping to go out to dark skies this weekend, so will give it a try in anger then!

Thanks again for your advice. Just a couple of questions:

I just pointed the scope at at star near the zenith and did both dec & RA adjustments on that one star. Is that what you do? Can you choose a star elsewhere - would be easier on the neck to keep realigning the star in the scope when it drifts off the CCD if you could use a star with a lower azimuth???

Ta
DT

[[1ponders]]

Hi David. Don't worry about RA readings. They don't come into the equation at all. Just focus on the Dec readings.

You adjust elevation by selecting a star around 15 deg - 20 deg above the horizon at Dec 0 deg (East or West). And you adjust Azimuth using a star close to the Meridian at Dec 0 deg. You can easily allow +/- 5 deg in either side of 0 deg Dec. The meridian star and the horizon star can be +/- 5 deg also. The closer the better but not essential.

You must be a long way out for the star to drift of the CCD that quickly. Do you use a compass to do an initial rough alignment? Try keeping the star on the screen using your keypad while you make adjustments. Once you get the hang of doing that K3, will make your alignment so much quicker.

[DavidTrap]

Thanks Paul,

I'll give that a try this weekend, if the weather obliges...

To get my alignment last night, I just left the scope pointing vertical and aligned both azimuth and altitude by using BOTH the dec and RA graphs. I guess that doing multiple iterations in different parts of the sky would improve accuracy, so I'll give that a go instead. Might have just been beginner's luck! Thinking about it a bit more, it starts to make sense why you need to do both overhead and towards the horizon - I can't explain the logic, but it feels right.

I was a long way off initially, so big movements were needed! The closer I got, the easier it was to chase the star around the FOV. Another question, when using your webcam, how quickly does the image update on the screen - my DSI only updates an image every 2 seconds or so making following with the hand paddle a bit harder...

Ta

DT

[[1ponders]]

Check out this article that Al did.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-544-0-0-1-0.html
It will help

[DavidTrap]

I had a read that article and I found it didn't really outline exactly what needs to be done in a step by step process for a beginner like me to follow.

I found a post by you that gave a better step by step explanation:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=30794

Cheers
DT

[RobF]

One other point - the "overhead" star isn't actually straight up on the zenith - it should be on the celestial equator with a DEC of zero. So in Brissy, you'll be looking for a star 27 degrees to the N of directly overhead. Your scope will be at right angles to the polar scope in your mount (if you have one).

Does that make sense?