USB extension cable question

[peter_4059]

Is there anyone out there with experience using active USB extension cables. I am currently using two x 3 m long usb cables coupled with a powered hub but would like to increase one of the cables to 5m to get the laptop a bit further away from the scope. I'm aware of DSI cameras spitting the dummy if the usb cable is too long but was wondering if an active USB extension cable would do the trick.

Where do you get these from and are the good/bad brands out there?

Thanks,

Peter

[Tandum]

Where did you hear about these peter? I'm not aware of them at all.

As far as I know the usb problem is, more than 5 meters without a powered hub and you suffer signal loss. More than 3 hubs (or is it 5?) and you suffer time outs from signal delays due to hub buffering. Active cable?

[peter_4059]

I've heard people refer to them and if you google active USB extension you get plenty of hits. They claim to be able to extend a long way past 5 metres. I'm interested to know how successful this is. They appear to be powered from the usb port so not sure if they are any different to a normal extension cable?

http://www.mittoni.com.au/usb-20-5m-active-extension-cable-p-1321.html

[Tandum]

Looks like a single port unpowered hub on the end of a cable. I doubt there'd be enough juice left at the end of a 25 meter run to power up anything :( I guess you could always put a powered hub on the end of the run :D

[PeterM]

I use a quality powered USB hub for the 10 metre cable that runs my Starlight Xpress Camera. Without it and over 5 metres the camera just drops out regularly. Same thing happened when I had a DSI camera - it was then that I read somewhere that there are powered USB ports in laptops and non powered ports and that the DSI needed a powered USB port, again limited to about 5 metres. As far as active USB cables go I believe that Pat Pearl has recently bought some (and may have a good supplier) and is able to extend a considerable distance (10 meters plus I think). Might be worth giving him a call Peter.
PeterM.

[MrB]

I think you need a remote power supply if there needs to be a decent current draw.
An alternative to long USB cables is a USB--->CAT5--->USB converter.
Have these at work but I've never tried them, sold a few though and never had a return yet, so I guess they do work.

[Tandum]

How much are they Simon? Can they handle a hub at the other end?

Never mind, I looked em up. $50 and usb1.1 :(

[peter_4059]

Thanks Peter - I'm catching up with Pat on Monday night for the Astrofest washup meeting so will check out what he has then.


Peter

[g__day]

You can daisy chain a maximum of 5 lots of 5m provided every cable is an active extender (the ones with the small matchbox sized female heads where they connect - they retail for between $30 - $50 each).

I have done in reliably with 3 * 5m - 5 * 5m can be a bit dicey - should work with a bit of luck! Try it a step at a time.

PS

If you're going to add a hub - make sure its a powered one - else you're in for disappointment!

[peter_4059]

Matt,

Do you know what's inside the matchbox end? It looks like all the power is still supplied from the laptop USB port?

[mithrandir]

If you don't mind throwing $$$$$$$$ you can get toys like this, http://www.smartvm.com/Icron-USB-2.0-Fiber-Ranger-442-Multimode-Fiber-P9663.htm

"... extend USB 2.0 peripheral devices up to 10km over fibre optics at up to 480 Mb/s."

~$US1K :eyepop:

[troypiggo]

Oooh, you need one of those....

[TheDecepticon]

I use one all the time. No dramas, and I run a DSI Guider, DSI Pro II, used to run a 40d, game controller, GPUSB and USB to serial adapter all off one 7 Port High Speed USB2 powered hub, going through the one 5 metre Active USB cable. Try Bintel or a computer store.
Also, there are different grades of USB2 cables. Make sure you get genuine "High Speed USB2" cables, which are marked with a symbol on the cable ends, stating that they are "High Speed USB".

[Tandum]

Do you know the difference between a "High Speed USB" cable and a normal USB cable?

[Tandum]

Marketing ....

[Exfso]

I got 2 of the Active USB cables and they work a treat, got mine from Dick Smith, from memory about $30.00, prior to these, I tried piggy backing ordinary USB cables, this cause the laptop to have a real hissy fit all the time. No sign of this behaviour since the aquisition of the active cables.

[MrB]

DOH!
Didn't know that. :(

[dugnsuz]

I use 2 linked USB extender cables with no problems - Laptop to 3 port hub on telescope (DSLR/Webcam/GPUSB)

Approx $25 each at Jaycar.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=XC4839&keywords=usb+cable&form=KEYWORD

Doug

[AlexN]

I run 5m cables to everything on my setup.. despite the fact that a 3m cable would suffice most of the time, I like the extra flexibility should I want to move my laptop further from the mount etc..

I've never had an issue.. I've done 1x5m usb cable to powered 4 port hub split to QHY8, GPUSB, FCUSB and DBK31.
I've done 1x5m to Orion SS Pro, 1x5m to QHY5, that worked well too..

I have never seen the need to be further than say, 3m from the mount... Seems silly to me.. just make sure you have a light shroud around the laptop screen and have it pointing in a direction you do not plan to image...

[g__day]

Short answer - no idea of the circuitry inside the end of an USB 2 extender - but I presume it filters and purfies signal, not just boots power.

Secondly I have tried the USB <-> cat 5 <-> USB devices - never with any success because it appears Windows can't work out what is on the other end of the cable and never loads the CCD driver. There may be a way of getting this to work - but I never discovered one.

[peter_4059]

Thanks Doug - I had a look at the catalogue - do you know if these Jaycar devoices are USB2 compliant?

Peter

[MrB]

Peter, USB1.1, 12Mbit/s max.

[peter_4059]

Thanks for the heads-up Simon. I'm assuming this one is really USB2 compliant based on the high-speed (480Mbps) support?


http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/4a98eeef00bb1aec273fc0a87e0106eb/Product/View/XH8199

[MrB]

Yep, that one looks like a goer :)

I'm kinda surprised the Jaycar one is not USB2 compliant(according to the website & printed catalogue anyway), will have a look at it's packaging on Monday, they were recently re-sourced.

[peter_4059]

Cheers Simon. I'm planning to pick up three tomorrow.

Peter

[DavidU]

A tip for you fellas buying from Jaycar.
I purchace from Electus
http://www.electusdistribution.com.au/
They supply Jaycar and getting an account will give you quite a saving.
Note all the part numbers are the same. They are in Sydney. Buying from Electus has saved my company $++++++.

[MrB]

Yes and No, 'tis the same company.
Jaycar was formed when Gary Johnston(a former Dick Smith employee, and close friend) bought John Carr Pty. Ltd in the 80's.
Electus was set up as the wholesale/distribution, Jaycar is now just retail.
There's also GadgetCentral.

[peter_4059]

Well I tried the DSE extender cable this morning and while it works with most of my devices the DSI II pro definately doesn't like it. The camera is recognised by the pc and the driver installs correctly however I don't get any signal on the live view screen. When I connect the camera the old way it works fine. Not that surprising - the DSI is a very fickle bit of kit.

[troypiggo]

One word - DBK21 :)

Sorry it didn't work out for ya. Man that DSI II USB connection is touchy.

[GTB_an_Owl]

try something SILLY

put a hub on the end of your cable - then attach your camera

geoff

[peter_4059]

Geoff,

I tried it with a powered hub on the end but still no good. I can make do with it as is so have decided to stop meddling (for now).

Peter

[GTB_an_Owl]

Peter

did you try an unpowered hub ?

i had a similar problem with a webcam yesterday

cam connected to extension lead was not recognised
as soon as i put a four port hub on it (end of the lead then camera) - the camera was detected

geoff

[GTB_an_Owl]

ok - retract a bit

i was using a usb extension cable NOT an EXTENDER cable

geoff

[TheDecepticon]

As I've said before, and no it is NOT marketing, it is NOT the DSI that has the touchy connection, you are NOT using the correct cables. Do a thorough search around on the net and you will see what I mean. Many USB2 cables are only 1.1 compatible. High Speed for USB2 was an afterthought, so you will get cables that don't comply. If it doesn't have High Speed USB2 on the cable ends, it probably won't work. If it works, good, it is an unmarked compliant cable. But as I said, don't take my word for it, look it up yourselves.

[troypiggo]

Err, I was using the cable that came with the DSI II. Are you implying they shipped incorrect leads with their product?

[TheDecepticon]

If you were using the cable that came with the DSI, it should be working. If it is not functioning correctly, it may be the port on your computer or a faulty cable. I'm sorry Troy, I've run DSI cameras a long time and it is generally user's lack of knowledge and a readiness to blame the product instead of looking past their nose and sniffing out the real faults.:rolleyes: Try another cable and another PC. Did you "hot plug" your DSI after the installation and do you always use the same port?

[troypiggo]

I should point out firstly that it's Peter, not me, that's the OP in this thread.

Second, I'm not really having a problem with it. It works and communicates fine on any and every port on my netbook.

Thirdly, I think that by "flakey", Peter may at least in part be referring to it being very touchy and losing connection. I know that if I slewed to some weird angle and the cable was even slightly pulled in a certain direction, the connection would just drop. It's like the cable to camera connection is a little loose. I believe he is also having other issues, but I can't speak for him.

I mentioned the DBK21 as a bit of a private joke between he and I. You weren't to know that.

[Tandum]

There is no such thing as usb1 and usb2 cables, they are all usb cables.

Here is a cut/paste from usb.org.

2: Aren't the requirements for cables different at the new higher speed or will Original USB cables work with Hi-Speed USB?
A: Fully compliant Original USB cables will work fine at Hi-Speed USB speeds.

[MrB]

Dunno, I think there's gotta be a difference for longer runs, better shielding from interference and better protection from crosstalk between wires within the cable.
Don't know that for sure... just guessing... but it makes sense.

[peter_4059]

The DSE cable makes all the right claims and works fine with my other devices. I use is successfully with Belkin 3m USB -> Belkin 4 port powered hub -> Belkin 3m USB cable -> Laptop no problem. I was hoping to swap the second 3m cable for an active 5m USB extender cable however despite the camera being recognised by the computer and the correct drivers loading I just get a black live view screen. I swap back to the old 3m cable and same setup works perfectly.

The issue Troy referrs to with the flakey USB connection is a common problem. If you disturb the USB connection at the camera end it drops out and then requires a reboot of the laptop for the camera to be recognised. I know Allan fried a camera this way and another colleague had a similar problem at astrofest with this. I think the issue is with the USB socket on the camera - it doesn't seem to be deep enough for a standard USB plug to make a firm connection.

[MrB]

Ok, I checked this out at work today. They have been resourced.
New specs:
Cat # XC4839
USB2.0 5M(16ft) Active extension cable.

On the back of the packaging:
USB2.0 Specification Compliant.
Data transmission rate up to 480Mbps.

So looks like they are USB2.0 :D
If you want to try one, Jaycar has a 7-day refund policy.
Keep your receipt and don't ruin the packaging and you'll be fine.

Tell them the salesman code is...... haha, Just Kidding!

[peter_4059]

Cheers Simon- might give it a try next weekend.

Peter

[dugnsuz]

Catching up with this thread...
I use the cables on USB2 ports with no problems - but I think the intervening posts have answered this question
Doug

[MrB]

Ok, as of today Jaycar has a new product.
I was putting away a delivery and thought... helllooooo.

Cat# XC4120 (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=XC4120&keywords=xc4120&form=KEYWORD)
10M (33ft) Active USB extension cable.

Same blurb as above with the 5M cable...
USB2.0 specification compliant, data transmission rate up to 480Mbps etc etc blah blah.

Again, if it doesn't work, full refund within 7 days of purchase if the packaging is kept in a sale-able condition.