What is wrong with car industry in USA

[xelasnave]

I have been wondering what with the bail out and executives now prepared to work for a dollar a year... running a jet will get hard for them.

But I liked this I read today.........


"""The problem is finance. “We have plenty of customers—what we don’t have is financing available to meet their needs,” Mike Jackson, chief executive of AutoNation, a leading car-dealer chain, told CNBC this week. He reckons that tighter credit and limits on finance for leases have cost his firm a fifth of its sales this year."""

Is that a clever observation or what.... I want a big scope, a expensive astro camera and a beach house and a plane... and I have the same problem... but I am content that there are some things I dont have money for... my solution is more complex than their..if you dont have the money you are not a customer...

What an observation...

Mate if your customers dont have money you need to find a business where the people have cash...

So on that basis I guess we will get a similar problem to prime loans as surely the government over there must now demand of banks they lend money to people to buy cars they can not afford.

Anyways it got me thinking... how to fix the car industry...

Maybe if they made the 2008 model still available without an update thru to 2028 cars will get relatively cheaper and more folk can buy.

but most interesting of all they used the word "reckons" I thought that was my exclusive property.
alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

Sorry Mr Mod I meant this to go in general chat
alex

[Ian Robinson]

Let them go under since they have failed to adapt to what their customers want.

Bailing them out is rewarding bad (out of date) technology and abyssally poor management.

[xelasnave]

I agree absolutely Ian
alex

[Glenhuon]

Not often I agree with Ian :)....but
Yep, for too long car manufacturers have told us what we need. I know what I need, no bells and whistles, just a vehicle that will take me from A to B at a reasonable cost and does'nt need a degree in electronics/computer software to diagnose and repair. If they are going down the gurgler, let them, perhaps they will be replaced by someone who has the customers wishes in mind. There's always a successor waiting in the wings :) (yeah, wishful thinking)

Cheers
Bill

[acropolite]

moved.

[mick pinner]

l work in the auto repair industry and it is not the fault of the manufactures as to what they build, cars are dictated by the customer. people want cars that go further on a litre of fuel, safer cars and greener cars, this means research and development. cars cannot stand still because people won't allow it therefore prices have to rise. the problem with the auto industry is too many manufacturers, if there were say 4 major car producers in the world they would have larger market shares and should therefore be able to keep prices down especially if they share info relating to product development. cross development of vehicles between companies such as Holden and Volvo has been going on for years. as an example of using another companies ideas, 80% of all safety features incorporated in motor vehicles world wide are developed by one company, Mercedes Benz.

[Kal]

mick - watch "who killed the electric car" and you will see that car companies such as GM don't give a damn about what customers want. What they want is to sell the cars with the highest margins, which are generally larger cars, and they will advertise and push customers in that direction. Just like the banks with their subprime problem - companies like GM made high risk decisions for short term gain in order to give executives fat bonus cheques in the order of millions of dollars.

GM killed the EV1 and decided to heavily promote the Hummer, and to be honest, I would love to see GM fall on it's own sword right now and go bankrupt.

BTW - companies like Toyota and Volkswagen certainly aren't struggling depite the competition.

[xelasnave]

I think the market system fails us as it tries to give folk want they want not what is best for them or what they need.

I agree less manufactures would help.

But we now enter the realm of Government control to arrive at such a situation and if we go there we may as well simply legislate so the market gets what it needs not what it wants.

Also I feel maybe instead of new models all the time that running with one for say five years may help... a free market cant do that of course because everyone wants the latest...It would be a brave Government who try to rationalise the industry... maybe the carbon thing will give them an excuse and folk mat accept it ..to save the planet approach.. but taxing seems the only method they will try to save the planet with.

AND why do we allow cars that car do near 300 klms p/h ...

When in Sydney and on occassion I find myself in the stop stop traffic I look each side and wonder why folk want such powerful cars... I feel it is mostly an ego thing... cause no one can use the advantage of more power than my little car... and on the freeway my car keeps up with traffic... with heaps of speed in reserve...



alex

Mick it makes me happy to hear that there is some rationalisation and thanks for an inside view.

alex

[xelasnave]

AND if one thinks about it things go this way.. the car company puts out a car and then markets it so the buyers think thats what they want...
alex

[Glenhuon]

Don't you just love the marketing hype.

New improved model - different body trim from last year.
Cutting edge technology - we think it will work.
Fully computerised - team of uni graduates needed to repair it.
Increased power - uses more fuel
300km/hr top speed - only to be used on race tracks

:)
Bill

[Ian Robinson]

Any privately owned company that requires corporate social security to survive either :
- should be nationalised 100%
- or let fail.

[AstralTraveller]

I believe there is a company in Sri Lanka called The Venerabel Car Company (or some such similar title) that specialises in making all the parts for Morris Minors. Why? Because they are cheap, practical and can be repaired in any village workshop.

I imagine many of us are of an age where we did all the service and repairs on our first car. Mine was an FC Holdlen and I did everything on that car. New cars are undoubtedly better in that they don't need so much TLC to keep going but when you do need to work on them its a specialist job.

[AstralTraveller]

Another little tail about why US car makers fail.

Years ago president Ray-Gun was visiting Japan. At the prompting of the US motor lobby he got up in public and complained about Japanese protectionism which resulted in no US cars being sold in Japan. The Japanese prime minister responded that there was no restriction on the importing of US cars to Japan and that the problem was that no US makers made right-hand-drive versions of their vehicles. The observant US president had already been in Japan a few days but had not noticed that they drive on the left.

Following on from that, later on the Japanese PM told Reagen that the reason US manufacturing could not compete with Japan was that Japan is racially pure whereas the US is a racial mixture. The uproar in Japan was such that he had to resign. (And who says there is never any justice in this world - it is just not too common.)

[xelasnave]

Now Ian you are far too harse...

Have you not heard they will take a pay of a dollar a year.

AND today to go to Washington did they come by private jet...no no...they drove there in "high breed" cars..you know the ones they have been trying to scotch all these years...

What an act!!!

I dont know why Congress allows itself to be involved in such a disgusting show... because they are going to give them the money and are trying to buy off the public rage of that I have no doubt.

It is better than the theater... I just dont know if one should call it comedy or tradgedy.... it certainly has moved past the who done it because they qualified their plea for cash with....."we know we have made mistakes..."

The poor folk who banks sucked in to take on loans they never could afford could make no such claim as they were simply conned.

AND "we cant let gmh fail it is part of the countries heritage... " so was home ownership pal who was worried about that heritage being lost.

Let them drown... clean the scum from the water and move forward.

I am sorry about the workers who will go but I give them no more thought than their stupid bosses gave to them who have lead them to this position...

and what do you think the first moves of restructure will take...

sack more workers, and tell those left in fear of losing their jobs that they must work harder and accept less money.... after all the bosses now live on a dollar a year...well they can if they managed to put away a few dollars from their previous years of plunder and greedy indulgence.

There will be no problem if they all fail...certainly no one will not have a car...because if folk want cars there will always be an effecient business man out there that can take up the slack..that is the wonderful thing about capitalism...the strong inherit the weak fail.

Cuba went without new cars for years and they got by and their situation saw them actually repairing and treasuring cars and not scrapping them when the ashtrays were full.

AND today listening to a guy on the radio he said most of the problems come in management of a ressession or ..can we say it now..depression ..is because of over Government reaction.
This hand out scheme our Government is using to give publicans a good xmas will see death and many wives beaten ...sad but true and any fool must accept that.

AND why do they (US Govt) react..to save the little folk..no way... did the US Government knock on any door of a person facing forclosure with a hand out to save their house... if they did it did not make the news.

It surprises me that when things go well these CEO's are full on capitalists but when they face bankruptcy they seem to turn left real fast...left means Government intervention to bail them out.

So Ian I agree almost with you...

Let then fail then nationalise 100% and send the ceo's to the end of the employment line... those who one does not gaol for gross neglect.

It is so wet here I am past bored never been so cabin crazy ... if I can get out the driveway I am going to the pub to discuss UFOs, Earth crushing rocks, astrology and tarot cars...and beat everyone at pool.

alex
alex

[Ian Robinson]

The real reason why yank tanks can't compete with jap cars is that they are crap in comparision and are blown out of the water when it comes to quality of manufacture.

[xelasnave]

I knew it ...those dam Japanese would not change to left hand drive... clearly their fault why US cars did not take some of the market.

alex

[AstralTraveller]

Once again I am reminded of the quote:"A game that socialises risk but privatises profit".

[Ian Robinson]

The salary component of executes in big companies is a very minor component of their actual income - so what if they are offering accept $1 pa , you can bet they will make the difference in perks , and shares , and options.

Now if they offered to do without their golden paracutes, and their accumulated shares and options (to date and in future) and to actually be personally financially accountable for the performance of their companies then they might be talking turkey.

[xelasnave]

No Ian I am sure all that will change and they are really only going to take one dollar ...

I just know they have the interests of everyone else at heart and they will do it as a public duty...sortta like charity....

These are folk with the interest of the country at heart .... at least that part of the country that they personally own.

You are so right unfortunately.


alex

[AstralTraveller]

To follow on from Bill's comments about what is required from a car. If we are going to have 'green' cars we need cars that can be driven, serviced and repaired for decades. The amount of energy embodied in a car is enormous and to throw one out after 5-10 years to get one that uses 0.5l/100km less is, I believe, false economy.

I still drive the 1981 Landcruiser troopie we bought for our round Aust trip in 1984. That's 24 years in the one car. I'm 50 and have only had 3 cars. I know people who manage that in 2 years! I know I'm lucky in that my wife works from home and I walk to work, so we don't have to wrestle it through the traffic. If we had to commute we may have changed by now.

Although it's a inconvenient around town we're used to it and it's great for our camping trips, where it really makes sense. Mechanically it is still in top condition but unfortunately the rust will kill it soon. Parting with it will be tough. I've realise one does not sell an old 'cruiser; they need to be surgically removed.

[xelasnave]

I would still be driving my 1968 VW if it had not been written off.
alex

[Ian Robinson]

I bought my Pajero brand spanking new in 1992, it's still going strong and no rust (that I can see or know off), I've no plans of replacing it anytime soon despite having just under 300,000km on the clock.

[Glenhuon]

I've owned 4 vehicles since coming to Aus in '81, only new one was a Toyota Corolla, and I won it in a raffle in '83 :)
Present one is a Mitsubishi Starwagon people mover. Only bought that so we could put Kym's wheelchair in the back, otherwise would be still driving my Nissan Pulsar. Used to service them myself, but can't with the van, everything is too compact in the engine compartment and I don't have a service pit or ramps here.

Bill

[JimmyH155]

Why do cars have to get bigger and bigger? This Planet cannot sustain economic "growth" We cant keep taking and taking. McMillan in the 1950's said "We've never had it so good!" He was right. We have not heard the penny drop. we cant have 300 klm/hr cars, that is gross. Governments should have the guts to say no engines over 848cc (like the Mini) That car could travel at over 70mph with 4 people aboard - what more can we want. WE cannot keep increasing our standard of living.
Let all the US car makers crash, AND Holden as well with their 3.8 litre guzzlers - they are GM anyway. and as for that Hummer - dont get me started....:sadeyes::sadeyes::sadey es:

[AndrewJ]

Cmon, you forgot the best bit
They have a wheel brace that doubles as a crank
No battery required for starting :-)
Especially good if you accidentally image all night

Andrew

[xelasnave]

I heard Honda have dropped out of formula 1 saving $300,000,000 a year and all they can say is f1 will become less competative...
alex

[Kevnool]

I love my 4x4 the fuel guzzler just isnt an issue......If they get bailed out it sucs because when 1 door closes another door opens.

[AstralTraveller]

Thank you. I had quite forgotten about that feature. That makes them even more practical.

BTW was there a model that came with an imagining rig? :P

[Kal]

There was an intereresting read on GM's failure on the smh website I came across here (http://business.smh.com.au/business/world-business/gm-headed-for-bankruptcy-rescue-plan-or-not-20081213-6xqg.html?page=-1)


``Toyota is built on trial and error, on admitting you don't know the future and that you have to experiment,'' Shook said. ``At GM, they say, `I'm senior management. There's a right answer, and I'm supposed to know it.' This makes it harder to try things.''
`Increasing certitude'
So while Toyota assumed it must continuously adapt if it wanted to succeed in the US, Shook says, GM believed it would forever be the market leader. Its managers brought Toyota's manufacturing methods from Fremont to Detroit. They couldn't duplicate Toyota's zen: question everything.
Wagoner, a 31-year GM veteran, was the embodiment of its culture, an apostle of incremental change. Exciting as a Saturn, quotable as an owner's manual, the one-time Duke University basketball player exuded quiet confidence about GM's future.
``I know that things will turn around,'' he told Fortune magazine in February 2006, after problems erupted at the automaker. The magazine concluded in a cover story that ``the evidence points, with increasing certitude, to bankruptcy.''

[Ian Robinson]

Betya Bush throws government money at them .... and lots of it ..... and they still wind up laying off millions of workers , closing plants and going into chapter 11.

The idiot still has about 6 weeks left and he can do plenty more damage in that time , before Obama takes over. The industry lobbyists will be pestering , and he probably is hoping for seat on some boards once he is out if the whitehouse.

[Kal]

I don't think so. Bush is a republican, and it was the republicans that voted down the rescue plan link (http://business.smh.com.au/business/gm-chrysler-face-bankruptcy-by-end-of-the-year-20081212-6xi9.html)

THE iconic US car companies General Motors and Chrysler face bankruptcy before Christmas, putting at risk millions of jobs and threatening another blow to the battered economy, after Senate Republicans blocked a $US14 billion ($21 billion) emergency lifeline for the industry.

[Kal]

In fact, it is the Democrats (Obama's crew) that even suggested to the white house to tap into the 700 billion that they set aside for rescuing wall street.

[GrahamL]

a good read kal:thumbsup:

Its probably not the first company to go down that road, so large and
entrenched with history and better times ,I doubt they could even consider the industry without themselves in it.

I hope all the workers get there entitlements, but this is one buisness in its current shape that needs to be wound up.

[Ian Robinson]

Or split up and sold off.

Are american workers guaranteed under state and federal laws of getting full pay out of their accruded unused leave , severance pays , pensions (like our super sorta I think) and other things or do they just go to the back of queue after the banks and shareholders as general creditors of the wound up company ? in which case they can count themselves lucky to eventually get cents in the dollar of what is due them....and in the USA the dole only lasts a matter of months then you are cut off too .... I am not clear what happens if you are still unemployed after the dole is cut off in the USA - guess you turn to begging or crime and live in squats and boxes and in become a non-person.

I've a sneeking suspiction that it is not certain the workers layed off will get their entitlements (in the USA) if a company declares bankruptsy or chapter 11 and goes under , but the high executive will still bail and take their golden paracutes with them.

[xelasnave]

Folk at the top of an organisation often think they know "everything" and as such present a view as if they were God and their infalibility is greater than his.
So often folk at the top "call the market" not apparently from research but from mere opinion...
But imagine the pressure on management... they have a meeting on this or that and those who attend must present an idea that says they deserve to be in management... given that idea is behind management proposals become straw grabbing episodes.
Consider a MacDonalds management meeting... what can you do...the market says Maccas exsist because they deliver a burger and a shake when you step and ask at the counter for same... well look at macas these days..you can not do that anymore and the simplicity of their business is now extremly complex... someone has determined the old system needed fixing so now many macas have a order taker walking down the line of folk waiting...who under their old system would not be lining up...to take the order radio it back so they may be able to do it like they once did.
This situation comes from not preparing the burgers and having them ready...some fool manager convinced the other managers that his new system was better... no doubt he idea gets up because he can sell it to the other managers present ..whoever... but any fool would that the burgers are still "prepared" they now just sit in "draws" and are not assembled until the order is received... no fresher no flasher but with more effort and convelution to produce a very simple result.

Management overlooks the core desire of the macas client that got them started... burger fries and shake immediately... that system guarantees profit... but they try for other parts of the market and as a result macas now have a range that is outside what their market clearly demanded and rewarded their system.

I doubt if the car industry is different... each manager has to have an idea or why have him...so when he presents his drink holder in the new model idea sure it is well received by the other managers cause it is sold well to them... but a drink holder may only be relevant and a good idea to the group assembled... the core of the market simple demands a "good" economical, reliable nice looking car... but drink holders and other "ideas" cost time and money...and so the price goes up, the ease of production becomes more complex and so the prroduct drifts away from the core of market focus...in my humble opinion.

I often wonder how well a car would sell if it was cheap and the must haves are not there..
My VW did not have a fuel gauge it was so basic...but it ran well, did the job and was excellent transport... had no where to put a drink but got me to where I was going.
The aspect of selling add ons after the main car sale is seen as an area of high profitability and so they pursue this aspect but it is faulse economy..for they forget they are selling cars not goodies...and this aspect of car marketing has a great deal to do with why the us makers are in the poo..in my humble opinion... new features often dont just come with the car..as is the case more often with Japanese manufactures... but are there to work this aspect in approach to marketing...

So we get in many businesses a desire to take more and create "new" markets to increase turnover but one must remeber there is a profitable level and often seeking to extend turnover decreases profitability and in time viability.

alex

[xelasnave]

There was a Simpsons episode where Homer was put in charge of "the new car"... well he approached it on the basis of what he wanted not what was necessary for a transport vehicle...the company went down because the car was ugly, expensive and impractical...one wonders how the simplicity of a cartoon could be lost and not applied to the real world.

alex

[xelasnave]

Herny Ford's original premise was pretty good really... and he was spot on when it can to colour.

alex

[Glenhuon]

In the beginning, there was the Plan.
And then came the Assumptions.
And the Assumptions were without form,
And the Plan was without substance.

And darkness was upon the face of the Workers and they spake among themselves saying, "It's a crock of s**t, and it stinks."

And the Workers went unto their Supervisors and said, "It is a pail of dung, and we cannot live with the smell."

And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying, "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it."

And the Managers went unto their Directors saying, "It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide it's strength."

And the Directors spoke among themselves, saying to one another, "It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong."

And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them, "It promotes growth, and it is very powerful."

And the Vice Presidents went to the President saying unto him, "This new plan will actively promote growth, and vigor of the company with very powerful effects."

And the President looked upon the Plan, and said that it was good,

And the Plan became Policy.
And this is how s**t happens.

:)
Bill

[xelasnave]

I like it...
alex

[Barrykgerdes]

Sorry to bring up this subject again but a thought just struck me.

The american car industry has been going downhill since they stopped making those great big "Yank Tanks" and started making those compacts just like other countries.

Lets face it. If you were a blue blooded American and could not have the worlds biggest gas guzzler would you settle for a cheap copy of an import.

Barry

[Kal]

I've been to the USA a couple of times, most recently September this year, and I can say with 100% certainty that those big 'Yank Tanks' have been replaced by even larger 'trucks'. It is not too uncommon to see everyday people driving around in Ford F400's and such.

[Omaroo]

Andrew - that's absolutely not to say that they all do, but there certainly are a few who do.

I think that it really depends on where you are. West and Midwest, probably true to some extent. New York/New England - mid-sized to small cars are really becoming the go. I lived there for a number of years just recently, and actively observed that the trend downwards in size was inexorable. Large SUVs (both 4 and 2 wheel drive) were frowned upon by average people, and that went for the people I worked with. Our company's largest car was a Ford Taurus - a mid-sized car over there. The rest of us had small cars.

The blokes on the other side of the country - on the WHOLE - are following the trend in their own way, but you really do see a lot of large 4x4s as well. Don't forget that they have over 10 times our population, so the density of them as seen on actual roads will obviously be a lot higher than we're used to over here in Oz. In real percentages though cars, on average, are almost certainly smaller than they used to be 20 years ago. What I also found was that people actually thought that it was good to be concerned about the size of car they drive - wheras 20 years ago they certainly did not.... well.. apart from the fuel crisis times. At least this is a step in the right direction.

I find it amusing that people sit wherever they are and cast their own expectations on the Americans over their cars and car industry. They introduced the affordable car to the masses and refined the process that the whole world took on to build their own. Now we blame them for starting the whole thing while we still enjoy our own freedom of movement that the car has given us. I guess a parallel is how the Europeans sit there and criticise Australians (note: not 'Australia", but 'Australians" referring to you and me personally) for not immediately having our government stop our coal-fired power stations and installing nuclear today. Neither what you or I say will change that, but in time, if we all say it together, it will change - and hopefully for something better than currently used anywhere else in the world - be it solar, geothermal or better nuclear. Everybody will always have a problem with how others do what they do in their own environment. Back when, large cars in the USA were purely a reaction to the price of fuel at the time. It was cheap - so the market did what it does best and answered the call. We had them here too. Big V8's weren't the sole domain of the USA.

The economy of more than just the USA will most likely suffer horribly if the US car industry goes down in a screaming heap. It will affect everyone on more levels than we'll probably ever know. Yes, I agree that it eventually has to be shut down and something better built in its place, but it should be a gradual process, not a cataclysmic one. Given that, I suppose that the US has no choice but to bail out its car industry for the time being - hopefully in the knowledge that it won't go on forever and that plans must be made to wind it up. I hope that we discover/develop new technologies that will maintain our travel freedoms without a radical re-think on the way society works. Bring on the fuel cell!

[Kal]

Thanks for the input from someone that's lived there recently Chris :thumbsup:

I must admit, when I was over there I went there with the perception to "drive a big American car" and I hired a 5.7L V8 dodge durango on my first trip, and on my more recent trip a 4.2L (?) V8 Chrystler Aspen, both huge cars (well to me at least!) :ashamed:

[Omaroo]

I know what you mean. Every time I travelled interstate I hired a car on arrival. Invariably you'd be given something big if you didn't ask for a smaller car. I guess that the perception that hire car firms have is that people want or need room if they're travelling, so offering large cars is the norm. I usually had a bunch of guys with me and their overnight luggage as we stepped off the plane, so a large car made good sense.

As well, I wonder if the larger cars are actually cheaper for them to offer in some way - maybe super discounts from the manufacturers or something?

If I was alone I usually asked for a Corolla because they are easier to park in unfamiliar territory.

[TrevorW]

Whats wrong with the American car industry

1. Americans
2. Americans
3. Americans

A propensity to compensate for short comings both physically and mentally by the size of their cars

Nothing really innovative apart from some military hardware has come out of America since the 70's

It took them 60 years to get from flight to landing on the moon, 40 years late what ???

[xelasnave]

Common a fair go look at the good things... they do ok ...they just have some smarties who are good at making money disappear and we are all now a bit jaded because they did it...

But CHrysler have announced a production cut..one would think that would be normal given the market etc... but I dont think that is what is going on..it seems to me it is their attempt to force the senates hand and dip into the public purse..

alex

[Ian Robinson]

I feel sorry for the workers at Chrysler - locking the gate for an enforced holiday for 4 weeks likely means that 20-30% of them will get retrenched while on "holidays" .... a favourate trick of american companies . 20-30 % of the work force is apparently standard practice when companies are trouble (and it's always the workers (I include engineers here) who get shafted) . The "business improvement" experts always require it.

Not a nice feeling being retrenched at any time , but to get your pink slip the week before Xmas is really bad .... been there done that (in 1982) especially if you've worked your guts out to improve the job and make the company more efficient / profitable.

[xelasnave]

You know the real exciting thing is Ian...they get the bail out..must happen...but then how do you fix a company ...sack workers..we all know that...so it sucks the guestures they make that to avoid a bail out will hurt workers...they will be hurt and goldern parachutes will be the norm
alex

[Omaroo]

What's wrong with people today?

1. Generalisations
2. Generalisations
3. Generalisations

I thought that the topic was "what is wrong with the American car industry" - not "what is wrong with Americans".

Americans have been to the moon, I can't recall anyone else doing it yet. They've been up in space ever since - along with a Russian or two on occasion. They developed the integrated circuit and on it the computer industry (mainframe-industrial, desktop and hand-held), they developed the internet on which we all sit every day and the TCP/Internet protocol that lets it all hang together. They also came up with something a few people owe their lives to: the artificial heart. Did we forget that they invented the optical fibre so that we can talk to someone in India as easily as we talk to someone in the next room or that they also came up with the digital camera (CCD) and good old email? Just a couple of world-changing and influential things out of thousands they've invented and developed over the last 40 years. Nothing innovative...

Patents granted by country per million people? - America stands currently at number 3 behind Japan and South Korea with 300-odd patents per year per million people. Top of the tree. Been there for decades. Australia stands in 19th place with a mere 75, and we still call ourself the "clever country". Come on guys - fair's fair huh?

[xelasnave]

Generalisations are dangerous indeed and one of my many faults.
alex

[Bassnut]

Oh guys, this thread assumes customers are logical in vehicle purchases. They go with what feels good, and manufactures know it. Dick brains still buy 4WDs, go figure?. The "they killed EVS" conspiracy theory lives on, there are many independant documentaries on exactly why this happened, all painfully logical, but who wants the boring truth ?. Market forces are all, failures are measured by the misreading of customer wants, nothing less, nothing more.

[TrevorW]

Sir Timothy John "Tim" Berners-Lee, KBE, FRS, FREng, FRSA, (born June 8, 1955 in London, England) is the inventor of the World Wide Web, director of the World Wide Web Consortium

English

The went to the moon no more no less than for military reasons don't let the hype fool you and they used German and Russian inginuity

German, Russian

The integrated circuit was conceived by a radar scientist, Geoffrey W.A. Dummer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Dummer) (1909-2002), working for the Royal Radar Establishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Radar_Establishment) of the British Ministry of Defence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Defence_%28United_Kingd om%29), and published at the Symposium on Progress in Quality Electronic Components in Washington, D.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.) on May 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_7), 1952 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit#cite_note-0) He gave many symposia publicly to propagate his ideas.

English

Fibre Optics-Guiding of light by refraction, the principle that makes fiber optics possible, was first demonstrated by Daniel Colladon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Daniel_Colladon) and Jacques Babinet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Babinet) in Paris in the 1840s, with Irish inventor John Tyndall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tyndall) offering public displays using water-fountains ten years later.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_fiber#cite_note-regis-0) Practical applications, such as close internal illumination during dentistry, appeared early in the twentieth century. Image transmission through tubes was demonstrated independently by the radio experimenter Clarence Hansell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Hansell) and the television pioneer John Logie Baird (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Logie_Baird) in the 1920s. The principle was first used for internal medical examinations by Heinrich Lamm (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heinrich_Lamm&action=edit&redlink=1) in the following decade. In 1952, physicist Narinder Singh Kapany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narinder_Singh_Kapany) conducted experiments that led to the invention of optical fiber, based on Tyndall's earlier studies; modern optical fibers, where the glass fiber is coated with a transparent cladding to offer a more suitable refractive index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index), appeared later in the decade.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_fiber#cite_note-regis-0)

Not American

A lot of what comes out of America isn't invented by Americans

[Omaroo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_inventions

Trevor, the WWW is merely an application sitting on the backbone - the Internet. The first TCP/IP-wide area network was operational by January 1, 1983, when the United States' National Science Foundation (NSF) constructed a university network backbone that would later become the NSFNet. (date is technically that of the birth of the Internet.) It was then followed by the opening of the network to commercial interests in 1985.



Yes, it's widely acknowledged that the cold war fuelled the whole shebang, so what's your point? They still got there and the rest didn't. The Russians may have had a clever man at the helm, but the Russian military let him down as did their engine technology. The N1 was a complete failure.



The English merely suggested the notion of a condensed circuit - maybe. What you've said makes no more sense than saying that the French invented moon travel when Jules Verne shot a cannon shell full of people at it in a book. Thinking about it and doing it are two entirely differnet things. Again, it took Noyce and Kilby from Texas Instruments and Fairchild Semiconductor to invent the process that made any of it possible.



Well, Claude Chappe invented the 'optical telegraph' using drawn glass fibres in France in the 1790's if the truth be told. Maybe I should have been clearer - the Americans invented the laser, which in turn made little glass fibres (which have actually been around since Roman times) work for long-distance communications purposes. Bell Labs sorted this all out - not the British, French or anyone else.



Same goes for every country. Split Enz were New Zealanders, but to the world their music "came out" of Australia. Do you think the Americans lied about a whole bunch of their inventions? LOL!! Patents are where it's all at. You can't beat the patent, and #3 in the world are the good old Yanks. Dismissing the Americans like you are is hard to justify I think.

[xelasnave]

which Americans are we talking about North Americans or South Americans???

alex

[TrevorW]

Exactly

and thats the good thing about free speech is that we can beg to differ

and yes I agee generalisation is a bad thing but as everyone knows there is good and bad in every society

I'm not going to argue symantics because we could go one for ages just let's say we beg to differ but getting back to the original thread idea.

Like our govt instead of demanding changes to ensure profitable run businesses and enviromentally friendly cheap cars they pour further tax money down the drain propping up businesses for the sake of jobs and who gets rich from this not the workers.

:D

[iceman]

Another divisive thread with no purpose but for people to whinge and complain with generalisations that would insult quite a number of our members on IceInSpace.

Locked.