Electric car range.

[xelasnave]

Watching the car races in bed..nice.
Imagine an event 1000 klms with electric cars. You would be forced by competition to develop a system that enabled you to change batteries..rules could be set to have maybe 5 changes of battery in the race so hopeful systems must be as fast as possible....let's face it if you introduced such a race for the current F1 style electric car batteries would get changed in less than ten seconds.F1 approach heck they would come up with a system to change batteries in three seconds.
Being able to sell electricity fast, or like petrol is an important part of the mix...the only objection to an electric car could be range....give the problem to racing...Already I can imagine ways to do it and can imagine a F1 type battery change in my mind like a YouTube video. Just upscale your cordless power tool battery change. Anyways you can bet someone is working on the problem ...but having done race promotion and noticed the multiple types of racing and competition ...you could start such an event and probably make good money..I mean imagine a Bathurst event electric cars that look lovely ke you family sedan with a fancy paint job..like V8 Super cars...when they put the car goes on a hoist, better if not...mmm yes car be done...the crew two guys grab the old battery pull it out like they rip off the wheels and two other guys wheel the new battery in triggering the lock in system ...mmm good rule..driver must throw a main switch to make sure no accidents...but to replicate a future consumer approach.
I know..battery is on a rail that allows pushing a new one in on one side while the old one slides into a trolley..heck just bolt wheels onto your batteries...
Also competitors would seek out better batteries systems power management and perhaps recovery of energy when braking...

Alex

I have it...the battery change goes like this..the car enters its pit area..it triggers the robotic battery change system...the new battery rolls itself into place as the old battery drives itself out the back to the recharge facility...the new battery plugs in retracts it's wheels and is ready to power up...
And with a battery distribution system in place of petrol you would have the capacity to manage fluctuations in energy supply making solar and wind very manageable ...in fact such a system could store from the grid and sell to the grid...your community battery bank could come by just using batteries in store for the "petrol station".

Alex

[glend]

Alex, in the current Formula E competition the pit stop is used two simply switch cars. The driver gets out of the discharged car and gets into the second car which is fully charged. Obviously battery management is crucial in this competition, and regenerative braking is very important. Imagine the recharge being generated by deceleration at the end of Conrod Straight.
It is worth watching Formula E, as it is likely to be the future of motor sport. I was reading today that the current Formula 1 teams disagree on the new design rules for 2012 cars, with the current status quo leaders wanting to keep their big $ advantages, hardly surprising. In Formula E the cars are pretty much identical, so power mgt and driving skills become the primary focus.

As I was watching Bathurst this morning I could not help thinking that the organisers don't recognise a dying sport.

[The_bluester]

Actually that is not the case any more in Formula E, the new cars introduced this year did away with the mid race car change.

[xelasnave]

I have watched a couple.
So easy with their access to stuff to make a battery change thingy...
But the spin off for a battery exchange system is to provide a useful tool in power management...batteries could be sold as investments cause each little battery is bringing in rent...
Alex

[glend]

Yes, I stand corrected. Current regs here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_E

[The_bluester]

And I can't help but agree with you there.

I am a motorsports nut, and while I have never been interested in the supercars category, firstly because of spending two decades promoting it as a tribal contest between two cars that I had no love of to speak of (Owned both over the years and found them both to be "just cars") and then making it all about the "Personalities" (Anyone remember the tripe that was "V8 Superstars" on the ten network?)

Ignoring that, they have belated realised the trouble they are in and tried to attract other "Manufacturers" to their now "BYO engine" silhouette series and after some permutations it is now a three horse race between an noncompetitive Nissan that no one was buying even before it was pulled off the market a couple of years ago, and no longer has any factory backing, a Mustang that looks like a distorted version of the car that is wildly popular in it's tiny little niche in the market, and a Commodore that people are walking past in droves on their way to buy a Camry, or more likely, a Kluger.

All the while they are telling us how great it all is, and the TCR category is perilously close to eating their lunch for them.

BTW, I think electrified racing is coming and while I will miss the noise of some of the great engines in racing, I am fine with it. In ten years if I have to electrify my HR31 to keep doing motorsport, so be it.

[gary]

Hi Alex,

Don't forget that not all vehicles with electric drive-trains require recharging.

For example, the 2019 Hyundai Nexo SUV has a range of 570 km.

It has three hydrogen fuel tanks with a total capacity of 156 liters.
It takes 5 minutes to refuel.

The current generation of hybrid F1 cars have had no in-race refuelling
now for many years.

Changing all four tyres on an F1 car takes as little as 1.9 seconds but
typically in the 2.0 to 3 second range. A 3 second pit stop is regarded
as a poor time.

[RyanJones]

I for one don’t see why there is a need for hybrid or electric vehicles in current petrol racing series. I have zero problem with series like Formula E as a stand-alone series but I think F1 has been overly complicated and has lost its soul since the introduction of hybrid engines. People will argue that the cars are faster with the addition of electric motors and they use less fuel. No arguement from me there but that doesn’t mean it’s better. The problems that occur with the hybrid component are a huge portion of the failures in F1 racing. The lesser teams have to push their systems to the limit to be competitive while the likes of Mercedes can run theirs at 80% to remain reliable so it’s done nothing for parity. The constant failures of the lesser power units means they occur grid penalties when they are changed and changing them because they fail incurs huge cost so it’s not achieving anything there either. Have your hybrid or full electric cars if you want but in stand alone series. For F1, set a fuel limit for the race ( given that’s where power comes from ) and let the manufactures decide how to use it. High torque engines that accelerate fast and are good on hills or high power high revving engines that are fast on high speed tracks. Racing loses its relevance not when it doesn’t resemble road cars but when you try to make it something it’s not. That’s just my 2 cents

[xelasnave]

Could you have an electric car with the same power as V8 Super cars..what size batteries would to need and how big would an electric motor have to be..how many laps would you get. 4 wd. via a motor for each wheel.
Doable?
Alex

[doppler]

Top end speed and battery drain is the weak link, but ev's are fast of the mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eGhjhx8O9M

[raymo]

Battery drain is certainly a weak link for now, but top end speed isn't, you
can make an EV go as fast as you want; torque decides acceleration, and
Kw decides top speed, and you can give an EV as many Kw as you want. If
the desired top speed would exceed the motor's design max rpm, just put
the appropriate gear between the motor and the wheel[s] it drives, as some EVs already do, but for a different reason.
raymo

[JohnF]

lex, no problem with electric cars doing the 1000 km race. They just have to tow a trailer with a diesel Generator inside it, and an extension lead hooked up to their car :D:lol::lol:

Oh there is another problem with electric cars most people do not know about. Our bushfire brigade was told that if we are called out to an electric car fire, with people trapped inside, we are to stand back and lt it burn, that is let those people die. See those burning batteries put out very toxic fumes that will kill any firefighter not wearing breathing gear. And our trucks do not carry breathing gear, and also most of us are volunteers, and would not spend days being trained how to us that breathing gear if we did have it.

[julianh72]

Diesel and petrol fire fumes are highly toxic too - SOx, NOx, hydrogen cyanide, formaldehyde, ...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/FTIR-toxic-gas-analysis-for-diesel-fire-ppm_tbl2_240821843
And let's not forget all the highly toxic fumes from the burning plastics used in modern vehicles.

Do you let petrol and diesel car / truck fires burn, and stand by and watch the inhabitants die?

[astroron]

I find it funny that people complain about battery drain.
Most peope use their car to go to work and back during the week,probably doing the max of about 200kms a day if that.
Come home,have tea get out a stubby or a glass of wine and in for the evening.
Stick the car on charge over night and you're right for tomorrow which you will do it all over again.
I have some friends in America who have an electric car and they have just done a trip around 5 or 6 states and have had not one ounce of bother charging their vehicle.
They got around 450kms per charge
It's a big Furfy spread by the fosill fuel mob that there is no range in electric cars.
BTW Queesland has recharging stations all the way up the coast to Cairns and beyond
As battery technology and other fuel sources come on line in the next few years,you won't even hear a whimper about battery or energy source life.
If I could afford an electric car I would jump at the chance.
What I want to see come on line is an Electric Harley Davidson motorbike,then we wouldn't have to put up wth that abhorrent noise that they seem to get away wth comapared to other vehicles.
Is this Cop envy that the cops don't police Harley Davidson's for noise pollution.?
Cheers:thumbsup:

[AussieTrooper]

People complaining about range on EVs generally either don't understand the issue or have an axe to grind. You can now get 500+km ranges on EVs. Even on a huge drive, that's enough to get you to lunch when you will recharge.
With EVs you can start every trip with a 'full tank' from home. How many people with old cars can say that?

[AussieTrooper]

I somehow suspect that the riders of those things only do so for the noise.
There are effectively zero noise controls for trucks and motorcycles. In the rare event that one get's picked up for noise, they have a week before they get tested, during which time they temporarily change the exhaust pipe.

The only way I can see this getting fixed is to gradually phase out fossil fueled vehicles.

[raymo]

Ben, There are noise limits for every type of vehicle, but just like many other road and vehicle rules, they are largely ignored by traffic cops [ I'm guessing
that they are told to by their "superiors"]. The one that upsets me is the huge percentage of bike racks that completely hide the rego plate, when they can
buy a plate to put on the rack for about $29.
raymo

[AndyG]

https://www.harley-davidson.com/au/en/motorcycles/electric.html

Unfortunately, it's apparently plagued by design problems. Furthermore, the styling I can't see being attractive to a customer who'd want a Harley anyway. Though having never owned, nor wanted a Harley I'm not qualified on that front. Any Harley owners/fans wish to comment?

Not much comment regarding Cops and exhaust noise, aside to say I've been pulled over many times in the past on my various 600 sports bikes with straight throughs... I just told them "I haven't been <<merged into>> by car drivers since I fitted it, and I'm happy to be alive now to hear what Mr Policeman has to say". They shrugged and sent me on my way.

[sil]

i'd rather see electric cars have a hand cranked genny. and the drivers have to do the cranking.

[xelasnave]

Pedal cars maybe:)
I think a human can generate 100 watts, not sure but I suspect you would be cranking for a long time.
When I don't have to do 10 hour trips four times a month I may go electric...preferably a driverless electric.
Alex

[glend]

The Harley Livewire bike, which is available now, has not been received well by the Harley fans, for one big reason, it does not sound like a Harley. It has long been said by Harley owners that "Loud means Safe"! For some owners the louder the better. I think we can all agree that a Harley bike usually makes its presence known. The Livewire is silent, and for that reason, likely deadly.

I recall that in the EU electric cars are now required to generate noise, so that pedestrians can hear them (assuming you can hear in the first place). At least with a Harley, even if you can't hear it, you might be able to feel the shock waves. :eyepop:

My recently acquired European car is always beeping at me about something, it has lane keeping cameras, blind spot alerts, etc, but I have been wondering about how much mass it takes to set off the beep - would a bike set it off?

[JohnF]

Problem is the Electric Batteries if burnt are 100% fatal to any firefighter that does breathe those fumes. In big cities the Fire And Rescue truck all carry breathing gear. But Bush Fire Brigades do not. narest brigade with breathing gear to us is 20 minutes away. And we would be sent to any local car accident first. Then need to call for backup with breathing gear.

Hence my point is electric cars may be okay for in the city, but not in the country rural areas.

[astroron]

Maybe not yet,but like most innovations,they will surely be in the bush very very soon.
As the range and charging facilities inprove, as sure as eggs they will be here.
Quite a few major manufactuers are bring out 4x4 electric vehicles,including utes and SUV's in the next few years VW is a name that comes to mind.
It is up to the rural brigades to ask or obtain them.

I remember only within the last 10 years the Rural Fire Brigade in Kenilworth and Conondale had 30 year old vehicles,when we had a major bush fire and they were found wanting,then in no time they have a thouroghly modern set of vehicles

[Peter Ward]

I guess with death and taxes, and now asinine legislation is also a fact of life.

What ever happened to the concept of "watch where you are going" ??

Laws that would fine the idiots, who step into traffic with their noses glued to their smartphones and headphones blaring, in a manner similar to jaywalking, might also be useful.

Instead they make slow moving EV's go beep-beep :doh:

P.S.

Some EV facts, not opinions below....

My EV (Tesla) has a range of 560km....the long range model 620km
It actually has the best primary and secondary safety rating for any vehicle crash tested by the NTSB.
There is also a first-responder cut point (clearly marked under the bonnet) to disable the battery
Any car that is burning gives off toxins.
A fuel-air mix is far more flammable than a caged lithium cell.

[Tandum]

Before retirement I did computers for several yellow cab depots. One ran toyota prius only. Talk about a dangerous place walking in/out of that place. Could not hear them at all. Almost got clipped a few times.

[Ukastronomer]

I had to laugh yesterday when there was a full program about electric cars IN DETAIL ... what you are NOT told................ yet.

5 year battery and battery component life for example and even the best is only guaranteed 7 years.

So as long as you don't plan to SELL it used ever, or are willing to take $50 for it after 5 years fine :)




NO they are NOT, facts please

It is so BLIND and disabled people can hear them, being Autistic I am well aware of this and have seen many incorrect statements people are reacting to.

If you were BLIND you and a guide dog rely on hearing, and in case anyone posts silly comments about beeping etc........................ think

We are not all 100% perfect vision or able bodied

Post full/accurate quotes.

"The law has been welcomed by campaigners. James White, at the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, is worried about the risk the cars pose to people with sight loss. He said that for people who struggle to see them, the vehicles should indicate their presence in other ways."


....

[N1]

Hi Jeremy that would mainly apply to the battery would it not? And savings in fuel made over the 5 years would surely put that loss in perspective. The rest of the vehicle may well be subject to less depreciation than for a conventional car, which would mitigate this even further.

Make no mistake though, a new car electric or not, is one of the worst investments you can make if value retention is important to you, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[xelasnave]

I do like the idea of less traffic noise.
Probably city folk don't notice but the din is always there.
The quieter the better.
As to worrying about blind folk I expect a solution other than making all cars noisy will be invented.
I am impressed with the range now achievable.

Battery life ... We can only wait and see.
Alex

[julianh72]

That's out of date information - most (all?) current model EVs made by "mainstream" manufacturers provide at least 8 years warranty on the battery, if not 10 - in fact, it's a legal requirement in the USA, so any manufacturer who wants to sell in the USA (i.e. all of them) has to provide an 8 year battery warranty as a minimum.
https://www.myev.com/research/buyers-sellers-advice/evaluating-electric-vehicle-warranties

[Nikolas]

Battery technology is always on the improve, the use of thin graphite materials etc will revolutionize battery technology in the next few years. I'm really getting tired of Luddites who can't see past their noses. If we all thought the same way then there would not be any technological change, just look at what Tesla has done in 10 years, the future has not been written but there are people already there trying to rip out the pages. Get over it!

[glend]

The way people use and charge Li-ion batteries has a great deal of influence on how long they last. It is easy to double the number of charge cycles possible simply by under charging the bank cells. Fully charging damages the membrane, but keeping the individual cells at about 90% of capacity will double the lifespan. It is easy to see that some owners will have to replace their batteries before the end of the warranty period (The wording if the warranty will be interesting). Folks that come home from work and plug their car in to charge as a matter of habit, will be much worse off than those that only charge when they need it. And charging equipment needs to be able to be set for longevity charging instead of max voltage.

[Peter Ward]

The facts I alluded to were below the post script. I thought I was being pretty clear and they are still correct.

As for depreciation...What?! Cars depreciate?! OMG! Who would have guessed! :lol:

But should the battery pack fail after the warranty expires in 8 years from now...but let's call it 10 years before it fails, then according to Musk, a new battery pack will run about $3000 (maybe less) by then.

Hardly expensive motoring ...in your currency, little under 3 quid a week.

As for EV's being silent, and the need to protect blind pedestrians: try as I might, I could not find a single example of a blind pedestrian being killed by an EV.

Please send me a link if you find such a tragedy.

As a driver, seeing a white cane and guide -dog are a pretty good heads up to give them a wide berth/slow down.

[glend]

Peter, I believe there is an EU standard which now requires EVs to make noise below a certain speed, like as they slow down to stop at lights, etc. This is designed to prevent blind people walking out in front of them. However, this maybe overtaken by the autonomous emergency pedestrian braking systems finding their way into the cheapest of petrol cars these days, it seems the technology will be put into EVs as well.

[AndyG]

I'd love to see in the medium to long term a standard for batteries. Some design scheme/cooperative which could encourage consolidation of battery models down to a few. Both new car buyers and replacement battery buyers could enjoy the benefits of volume production.

With the BMS being built into said standard battery, then there's a good chance that battery chemistry evolution could remain inclusive with legacy models of car. As long as the connection, voltage and mounting are compatible, one could buy a "genuine" or aftermarket battery with a degree of confidence. Perhaps higher capacities could be realised by extended "length", with other physical variables being identical.

The only variable to the consumer would be the quality/real world power yield.

We're all aware that car makers will fight this due to lack of "control", but one can dream. Secondly, the honesty of aftermarket (and even OEM) manufacturers on the yield paid for is a factor. Strangly, I see many parallels with the printer cartridge market.

[Peter Ward]

I am aware of the legislation. EV's in the EU, now need to make noise under 12km/hr.
I don't think they were put in to effect to protect the blind pedestrian population however. Guide dog hearing is exceptional.

Lord knows, we must protect those who can other wise look, but don't.

I guess we can rely upon the oil burners to help accelerate climate change and cull the rest of the population.;)

[AndyG]

Having spent a few nights reading about the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, it's suggested that the BMS does just that. "Full" is 90% of theoretical charge.

I remember reading about the original Prius assigned "empty" to 60% charge or similar, which was appropriate for the chemistry at the time (NiMH?).

There seems to be a fine balance in the factory designs: "Charge as much as possible to outdo the competition in range, but don't overdo it to result in 10,000's of warranty claims in 6 years time. I hope they got it right :)

[AndyG]

This will just result in a cultural evolution of people. In the past, nobody needed to look out for a car, before that, a horse and cart, before that, just the horse, before that, woolley mammoth, etc.

It will be adapt or perish. After meeting my first EV on the street (a Mitsubishi i-Miev in Japan), I learned fast. Perhaps like you, I have a special place in my heart for phone zombies. It matters not to me whether they adapt or not :P

[Peter Ward]

:lol:

Indeed! I think there needs to be a new section in the Darwin Awards just for them.

[AndyG]

Good point. I wonder if "sensory overload" is a public health issue, or may become such in future? I'm obviously not offended by "loud" motorbikes or cars etc, but lowering the communal "noise floor" by the eventual mass adoption of EV can't hurt.

[The_bluester]

I reckon it has to be. I have hearing damage due to nearly a decade working in a noisy environment while in the RAAF. I used to work in the Melbourne CBD and didn't notice it too much at the time, but I have spent the last ten years out of that environment.

Now when I have call to go in to the CBD I am astounded by the general noise levels, I could not stand working there every day now, let alone living there. I understand why so many people get about with big earmuff style headphones on, probably deafening themselves with music instead.

Regards battery life and charge percentage, I would bet a decent bottle of scotch that the bean counters set the charge scheme, based on getting a high enough percentage of battery packs out of warranty before failure while claiming the absolute maximum of range that the extra sales are expected to more than offset the warranty costs.

[AussieTrooper]

What are the noise regulations for truck exhaust braking?
The only noise regulations is for a truck driving past at a steady rate at 50km/h. Nothing on changing gears nor braking, which are when trucks make the most noise.

[AussieTrooper]

Yes it is. According to the WHO, the health effects from noise of vehicles is about the same as from their pollutant emmissions.

The noise compliance levels set by the WHO are completely ignored by Australian road authorities.

http://www.euro.who.int/en/publications/abstracts/environmental-noise-guidelines-for-the-european-region-2018