Recreational fishing is a cruel sport and should be banned

[sharpiel]

I refer you to this thread and invite your comments.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=1281387#post128138 7

My point is that fishing and hunting require the destruction of a life which is very precious to the entity that loses it and destroys the families of the entity who remain behind.

We abhore war for the loss of human life and the families bereft and left behind by this senseless destruction. And yet it's ok when we do the same to other life forms for our own entertainment. Are we so arrogant that we think our life is more precious than any other?

Perhaps the hunters and those who fish for the sole purpose of recreation...not because they are starving and need to hunt/fish to survive, can explain what pleasure it is they gain from the taking of another entity's life and why they think this is any different to the cruelty that's perpetrated upon other animals such as cats and dogs which society says is illegal.

Maybe John Bambury could elucidate?

[xelasnave]

I suspect fishing, hunting and indeed fighting are "hard wired" (whatever that means) into our make up.
I think about humans like I think about animals in so far as we, they act as they have acted for thousands of years.

Say a dog who has come from generations of not hunting but prior to that his ancestors may have been hunters or asisted in the hunt for thousands of years, generation after generation, and so dont be surprised if that modern dog can not help himself and chases the neighbours cooks.

And as humans we tend to think we are perhaps more sophisticated than we actually are...

Fight or flight is not something that we learnt by watching DrPhil... No it has been sown into who we are from ancestors we no longer can relate to.

Many humans like to fish, hunt and even punch anothers face.

And I suggest those things are close to being instinctual. Does not make these things right but it allows one to understand why we hunt and dont wear the skin why we fish when we can go to the shop or fight when we can call the police.

And one can ask what sence is there in any of these things and even those who may fish hunt or fight can not answer why because these desires go beyond our time and are anchored in an era we no longer understand.

I do think so many things are cruel and as our species moves forward more folk will recognise the cruelty their most recent ancestors could not.
I think horse racing and dog racing is cruel for example.
Battery hens, battery pigs, feed lots to grow beef... No one thinks of another human suffering past a casual moment let alone how so many animals are treated so very very badly.

As to fishing I think catch and release is strange... on the one hand our fisherman wants to fish and yet on the other he is starting to recognise the virtue of not killing the fish.

Personally I think if you catch it, kill it and eat it cause thats what our ancestors did.

I can absolutely relate to how you feel Les and I practise kindness even to things that another will swat.

I catch a mosquito and let it outside, or if I find an insect trapped some way I give it and escape route.

And I can accept folk will think I am crazy but that never has worried me but hopefully I may influence another to be kind. If not I have at least been kind to many creatures and I dont careif they dont understand... but strangely I think they do.


All I can say Les is you are a very good man and I know how seeing cruelty really hurts you inside.

There is little I can say other than as far as you can care for any creature that you can help and be content that you at least have done your best.

Best wishes
Alex

[clive milne]

It's a while ago now, but once upon a time I put a pond in my backyard and stocked it with koi and goldfish. Eventually, it became its own little self sustaining eco-system (more or less) I fed them occasionally, but not that often. Even so, in my experience they were as personable as any domestic animal to be found in western society. They could easily identify me, or to be more precise, distinguish me from other people by sight. When I went wading in the pond to do the occasional bit of maintenance, they would come up and say hello in their own way and basically just hang out...quite happy to receive a pat or two - and they weren't there expecting to be fed.
They had their own little social structure as far as I could tell and personalities that most people wouldn't attribute to such creatures.

It struck me that if I was ever going to raise fish as a food source, the most difficult thing would be to take a knife to one of your mates, so to speak.

Having moved on, it's the only thing about that house that I miss.

Point being, fish are a whole lot smarter and more socially aware than most people give them credit for and deserve to be shown some basic degree of respect in my humble opinion.

2c

[leon]

Everyone has the right to put their point forward and i respect that, :) but really, Alex, letting mozzies and insects go, seems a bit much :shrug:

I think this will be an interesting thread.

Leon:thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

It seems strange but it surprising how nice it feels to know you can do it.

I like to think its the sort of mercy an ideal God may have or should have.
To think you can kill something with out a thought and yet to show it compassion is neat.

Before you judge me or write off my action as madness just try it once.
You dont have to judge the insect as good or bad but with out judging it simply help it.

I bet if you do it just once you will be hooked because you will have done something another human could not do. You dont have to get on a hobby horse and try and convert people to your way just do it for the helpless little crearure give it a little more time on Earth, it has so little and you can give it so much.

Alex

[leon]

Alex trust me mate i am not judging you or anyone for that matter, and as said i respect what you any others feel for other living creatures.:thumbsup:

I might just leave it at that.:)

Leon:thumbsup:

[clive milne]

Alex, my code is somewhat different.

Live and let live... for those creatures that don't put me on their menu.

Mosquitoes, ticks, etc) I terminate with prejudice.

[glend]

I have owned several boats over several decades, and fished from them, and particiated in the old Trailerboat Fishing Tournament at Port Stephens (NSW). My son, his cousin, and other members of my family saw it as a recreational pursuit. However, I never really enjoyed the fishing aspect, loved messing about in boats, but fishing was just an excuse to be out on the boat for me. These days, no more boats (a hole in the water that we pour money into), and no fishing, even though I can walk down to the lake to do so. I usually made people with me, release the fish, and I recall one employee of mine really got the S**ts because I made him release an undersized Kingfish which he wanted to take home. Many people just don't care about the fish stocks and are prepared to take anything they can get their hands on. I was fishing near Tom Ugly's Bridge once and watched three guys (I won't mention their culture) who were putting little Bream in a bucket to take home. I yelled at them about size limits and got a rude gesture in return. No Fisheries Officers to be seen. I have seen people fishing inside of designated Marine Parks like the one at Nelson Bay (Little Beach) and no consequences.
On the basis of my experiences I believe recreational fishing should be banned because it cannot be policed effectively and you can't trust people to do the right thing. I realise there is a big industry built around recreational fishing, from boats to rods and reels, to bait, etc. and this is worth millions of dollars but its the same as indecriminate hunting.
By all means allow people to mess about in boats and enjoy the great waters around Australia but shut down recreational fishing asap.

Let fish stocks recover through a decade long ban and then reassess, but frankly, if you know anything about fishing, the cost of getting the fish (the boat, the gear, the fuel, the bait, the time, etc) is far in excess of the cost of buying fish from the Markets. It's not a sport, ban it.

[Nath2099]

Fishing doesn't always require the death of the fish. Catch, tag, and release is an important scientific endeavor. It imagine it's quite stressful for the fish, but better that than dead.

Mozzies die in my house, they carry disease. But spiders, and insects who are not mozzies I'll generally rescue. I even avoid treading on ants!

Shooting animals for 'sport' is absolutely horrific and I'll never understand it. But if you plan on eating them, then I'm ok with it so long as it's not cruel (humans need protein). Filling a duck full of birdshot for instance... cruel and gross.

Mice and rats I'll also get rid of, for the same reason, they carry disease.

[Nath2099]

Surely industrial fishing causes much more damage than recreational fishing?

[blindman]

Have a look at this and then ask again.
Hunting is a normal way to get "normal" meat and animals live in natural environment.
http://www.animalsaustralia.org/features/facts-about-chicken-meat-that-will-make-your-stomach-turn.php

[raymo]

Most reef fish brought up from a significant depth quickly, die, period.
Many game fish die from utter exhaustion after long fights. Fish for food by all means, it is no more cruel than the horrific ways that many creatures kill each other; nature at its worst; but to hunt and kill any creature for
recreation [read fun] is, I agree, horrific.
raymo

[Nath2099]

Fair point. I must admit, my fishing expeditions are more about drinking than fishing. From the banks of a river. If I do happen to actually catch something, I can't bring myself to put a knife through it's head. I let them go.

[xelasnave]

I have been reading that fish do not feel pain and wonder how that could be.
If they feel no pain how do they protect themselves, I mean you would think that you would need pain to alert you to something going wrong if you see what I mean.

ALEX

[bugeater]

Does this apply to plants too? They respond to noxious stimuli. You destroy their life when you kill and eat them. Where is the line drawn?

[clive milne]

Like so...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_xHSooIafs

or:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_shrimp

[bugeater]

There is a difference between an instinctual response (think how your hand automatically pulls back from a heat source if you touch it) versus a conscious pain response, which in humans happens after the initial instinctual response and occurs in parts of the brain that some animals don't even have. "Pain" in its broadest definition is pretty essential for life as it simply means moving away from or avoiding noxious stimuli. Doesn't mean the organism "suffers" though. As an example, look up people with "congenital analgesia". They don't feel physical pain and typically don't live very long as a result.

[sharpiel]

My partner and I run a self funded animal refuge and sanctuary. Some of you have been here and seen our work. I can tell you from personal experience that all animals feel pain and suffer.

What I have found in my many years dealing with both humans and non humans is that humans link vocal outcry directly to pain and suffering. Because insects, worms etc and FISH don't vocalise pain, we can compartmentalise their pain and reassure ourselves that they aren't suffering. I use the cat analogy again: if a person hooked a cat by the mouth and dragged it down the road behind them there would be a public outcry of animal cruelty. The cat would be making sounds of incredible pain and that would trigger an emotional response from most people. Other live entities that don't vocalise their pain don't trigger an emotional response the same way. It's easier to say then that they don't suffer. So acts of cruelty against them aren't seen as cruel. They don't communicate their pain and suffering to us. Ergo they don't feel any.

I have been heartened by the positive responses of those who have interacted with non human life here and who have recognised that those lives have personalities of their own. Clive tells a compelling story of intelligence and interaction. He responded. As we all would given the chance. Unfortunately few of us take the chance to interact with other lives beyond the recognised companion animals; cats, dogs, rabbits etc. Why do people think that treating cats and dogs cruelly is unacceptable, yet treating other animals the same way is acceptable. This is illogical and inconsistent.

I consider my own life incredibly important. I would like to think that the day our alien overlords arrive they would treat my life as preciously as I feel it is. Because I consider my life precious I know all other beings deserve the right to be treated with the same respect I expect to be treated with. This is logical and consistent.

When I started this thread I expected be trolled, abused, cast out, isolated and alienated. Thank you for those who have the enlightenment to realise that all life is important, especially to the entity living it, regardless of its form. If it's not threatening me I believe in letting it get on with its life as I do. If it's in distress I help it. I would never deliberately destroy it.

When you strip away everything else, our life is all we have left. If our lives are taken away our families remain behind desolate. And so it is for every other living thing. Why take from it all it has especially for your own joy and pleasure? And animals form communities as well. They mourn the loss of their partners in their own ways. Some creatures mate for life. They feel the distress of bereavement and loneliness as we do. We may have opposable thumbs and the abilities to manipulate tools to advance our civilisation but we are not more evolved socially that many other of the creatures of this earth.

If you did this to humans you'd be branded a monster and psychotic. Well I don't believe we are any better than the fish or the moths or the birds or the worms. Why destroy them for your joy? I'm not a Christian pushing God on anyone. But I do cherish the sanctity of life. If there is a god then God help us if we ever make it to the stars. We are likely to destroy everything in our path.

As a final note (in this post anyway) I linked in my OP here the thread from which this one derived, wherein I spoke up for the fish and wherein John Bambury abused me for my views. All posts negative to that thread have now been deleted by the moderators. It's a shame that freedom of opinion is sometimes stifled when it doesn't agree with the views of the majority.

I've taken a compete copy of this thread tho. If it's also deleted I'll be more than happy to provide a copy to everybody.

[casstony]

Part of our cruder behaviour is explained by the fact that we're not far removed from the other animals - it takes a bit of effort and education for us to be better beings.

For example, with a little introspection perhaps big game hunters could be just as satisfied hunting with a camera.

[alocky]

Good for you that you practise what you preach - and obviously you're vegans as well. That's fine, and it's your choice. I don't share your views, I eat meat because I enjoy it, and I will hunt game for my own table. I don't enjoy killing, but I know that a quick clean kill in the bush is a far better end to a happier existence than being a terrified cow dragged into an abattoir and killed. But I also eat meat from the supermarket, so I'm not going to say that's bad either.
I do share your views on killing for the sake of it, but these behaviors usually stem from ignorance, culture, or youth. It is other people's right to have different views, so rather than ban these activities, you should continue your fine example, and do your best to educate the 'other' people, but you do not have a right to force your beliefs on them.

[Larryp]

Totally agree with you, Les

[ausastronomer]

I abused you because you intentionally hijacked and derailed my thread, not because of your views. You have now expressed your views in a new thread which is what you should have done in the first place.

I have owned a boat (several) over the past 40 years and I have been a recreational fisherman for over 50 years. I still own a boat but don't use it all that often as its hard work when I am only fishing for 2 fish and I prefer the tranquility and relaxation of beach fishing. My routine is pretty standard. I go and catch 10 live beach worms at 7 mile beach at Gerroa. I keep the worms alive with a special aerated bait container. They can live happily for several days in it but they only ever spend a maximum of a few hours in it. Depending on the wind I either fish at Bombo Beach, Werri Beach or Seven Mile Beach. I only fish one or 2 days a month as I try to coincide high tide about sunset. I go fishing to catch 2 fish and 2 fish only. One for my meal and one for my wife's meal. I have a self imposed rule where any fish I take home must be NSW legal size plus 3cm. I release any fish that I cannot eat. I release all breeding females irrespective of size, in order to sustain fish stocks. I go home after I have caught my 2 fish. If the first fish I catch is large enough to feed both my wife and I ( a school jewfish, a kingfish, or big tailor for instance) then I pack up and go home. I don't stay there another 3 hours, catch 8 more fish for fun and throw them back. I release back into the water alive, all of the beach worms I have not used.

Please see below an image of a diamond python and a joey.

The diamond python I found injured in the gutter about 7pm at night on my way home from work. It had been run over by a car. Bleeding quite a bit but still alive and able to move slowly. I figured "it might just make it back". I picked the snake up put it into a cardboard box in the back of my car and made a 100km round trip to take it to the 24hr vet in Dapto. I phoned the vet 3 days later and the snake had done well and was going to be released in a couple more days.

The Joey was rescued after its mother was killed by a car. It is sitting on my bed which is covered with the astronomy quilt that my wife made me. My wife actually made several pouches for the joey, for its carer to use, as it had no mothers pouch to use.

Don't dare be so blind, or ignorant, to presume that everyone who goes fishing is cruel and has no respect for the life and feelings of other species.

John B

[sharpiel]

But John you're still missing the point. It's not just about the fish. It's about cruelty to any animal.

What about the worms you use for bait. Do you stick a big hook through them to keep them on the line? Without your interference would they have remained alive longer?

And you're still recreationally fishing by choice because you enjoy it. You just happen to eat what you enjoy catching.

Congratulations for helping other animals. That is great work too. But this discussion isn't about a ledger where kindness to some animals offsets cruelty to others. In fact you've rather proved my point that recreational fishing is cruel, that it's inconsistent with the way we feel other animals should be treated. That's not logical. Can you see that now?

[ausastronomer]

Les,

I am truly amazed that you are still alive. What do you eat?

As Andrew Lockwood mentioned you are obviously vegans. But with your feelings towards all living things how do you bring yourself to eat a carrot, that was once a living thing, after it has been so cruelly pulled from its home in the ground and then had a knife taken to it to prepare it for the table. Or maybe you're a fruitarian, but then how would you eat a banana, or an apple or an orange after it has been so cruelly plucked from its home in the tree.

John B

[AussieTrooper]

Interesting point.
A large number of cat owners let their cats out. Cats kill for fun. A domestic cat will generally play with and kill about 3 animals per night.
Do you believe that the owner should be prosecuted for this, in the knowledge that they are allowing an animal under their control to go out and kill?

[AussieTrooper]

You do have a vaguely valid point. The problem is that you are applying human morals to nature, and nature doesn't work that way.
Every single animal is either killed/eaten alive by a predator, or by disease.
There are many animals that hunt for 'fun', not just humans. It is an evolved habit that is based on the fact that if you can find food when you are full, you can also do it when you are starving.
All food involves this. Whether it's locking up a pig for it's entire life in a tiny stall, or clearing a forest habitat to plant 'ethical' vegetables.
Personally, I agree that live bait is cruel, when there are other options available. But that's not a reason to tell others how to live their lives.

[JA]

I suppose it begs the question: At what level or type of organism are we prepared to draw the line at it not being food? Humans, animals, insects, plants, ....? Even plants respond to attack at a chemical / molecular level, so even they can have a sense that things are not as they should be.

The most primal instinct is to survive, and for that, food is required, for which YMMV

Best
JA

[Nath2099]

Fruit has evolved to be eaten by other species. That's the entire point of it.

And plants don't feel pain, so i think that line of reasoning is irrelevant to the discussion.

[AussieTrooper]

I catch insects and spiders and put them outside. They didn't come inside to do me harm, so there's no reason to squash them. Live and let live.
Mosquitos on the other hand, came inside to attack me, so they get responded to in kind.

[mental4astro]

I think this discussion is more than anything else about our unique situation here on Earth.

It is a deep philosophical one. We love our families, kiss our kids, hug our parents. And then we turn around and do dreadful things at work to appease our corporate masters, or continuously consume, consume, consume.

How we respond to, and the consequences for everything else that shares this planet with us is tied up with this. We can just hand over our 13 pieces of silver to get our hands on whatever, or we hold back just a moment and pause to think about the consequences first. I am not for one moment advocating turning back the clock to stone age man. But rather appealling to the higher sense of thinking that we have evolved to and continue to evolve through.

Human emotions, gratification and consideration are often awkward bed fellows. Harder still is when we need to put everyone's and everything else into the same bed.

Consideration and civility. Please. :)

Alex.

[AussieTrooper]

Big game hunting actually protects animals. For the locals, an elephant is just something that eats their crops occasionally. When a poacher comes, they don't really care. They don't care if animals go extinct either.
But when some westerner is prepared to the pay the equivalent several
years salary and provide employment, those elephants are now crucial to the wellbeing of the local inhabitants, and they will help authorities stop poaching.
There are many examples of this being a very effective conservation measure.

[bugeater]

Don't they? What because they don't wiggle when you cut them up? Does a worm "suffer" if you do the same? They barely have a brain to speak of.

This is what is commonly known as a thought experiment and putting plants on one end is absolutely relevant

[speach]

"My point is that fishing and hunting require the destruction of a life which is very precious to the entity"

So does eating meat, fish and to a certain extent plant life. So do you think we shouldn't eat? Fishing and hunting can only condoned if the prey is eaten

[Nath2099]

It's called reductio ad absurdium. Plants don't have a brain to feel pain. I'll refer you back to post 17 who says it much better than I ever could.

EDIT: Post 17 was actually by yourself, so I have no idea why you felt the need to ask this question.

[Kunama]

Whilst I don't wish to get into this debate, I found it interesting to note that whilst working as a Dive Control Specialist I took many keen fishermen for their first ocean dives and their response was to dive more and fish less as they found a new enjoyment in watching the fish in their natural habitat.

Swimming at a depth of 20-30 metres the fish schools accept the diver and often enclosed us within the school......

[xelasnave]

Perhaps we need a better word than cruelty.

No one likes to be accused of being cruel as the implication is there is evil intent.
The word implies a crime like act.

A crime once needed the ingredient of "mens rea" ... a guilty mind. The codification of many laws removes this aspect such that many crimes can be called those of strict liability where intent is not needed.

However once intent and the aspect of a guilty mind was the important consideration to establish a crime.

Larceny required the intent to permanently deprive the victim of the stolen item so the law could not deal with joy riders who took a car but had no intention to permanently keep the car.
The law required legislation to fix this aspect relating to intent.
If you kill someone make sure when arrested you say the magic words "I did not mean to kill him" because for murder intent to kill is what the crime turns on...

There was a case that went (from Australia) to the Privy Council in England (once our highest court of appeal) where a chap shot the victim when he answered the door. The accused pleaded that it was an accident and very nearly got off.

So consider the importance of intent.

Cruely implies for those accused they are guilty of evil intentions which I doubt is a reasonable claim.
So to call someone cruel when they perhaps do not even consider what they do may cause suffering is perhaps too harse.

But most people when their action is pointed out and they take time to consider may well understand that yes that creature would experience pain or suffering... And I suggest that rather than call folk who have not thought about how a "lesser" creature may feel perhaps should not be labelled cruel.... Uncaring would be a little less harse and even a more realistic way of describing their "cruelty".

We could reserve the word cruelty for those most evil characters who act deliberately and with the sole purpose of causing pain and suffering to another creature.
And sadly such evil folk are out there.

But I do think although an act may be cruel it is better to take into account the intent or absence of intent before we call someone cruel.

Clearly John is not a cruel man and his actions to save the snake is wonderful. And I think we need more people who look for babies in that road kill.
I suspect John realised fishing probably caused suffering given he has the decency to save a snake. But would no doubt be offended at any suggestion he was somehow cruel.


And although these things can generate hard feelings we should not allow that for what we do is presume that we have a right to judge another which I dont think we do and even if such a right exists I dont think we should judge another.

It is mostly wrong for us, the one judging, because you percieve a wrong which will upset you until that wrong is made right.
We cant always make things right so we must employ tolerance which is a form of kindness.

We need to be as kind as our situation allows.

Alex

[sharpiel]

Well said Alex. You have a brilliant mind. Thank you for your contributions as ever. They are often very intuitive and clarifying.

What would the situation be then that once educated...for instance having participated in this discussion...a person continued with their actions with the understanding that it caused pain and suffering in another? If they accepted that premise, would that create intent? If intent then exists does uncaring become cruelty?

[xelasnave]

Hi Les,
I had to edit my post that you included in your post as a quote to correct a few things.
Only minor.

Well strangely I am firstly pragmatic.
My efforts are best seen as trying to fix the problem I see before me.
Unfortunately I take a while to get to the point and although aware that I am plagued by verbosity it seems that I have no power to escape its hold.

And so it is easy to miss important points I make which can be lost amid my ramblings.

You in effect ask me to pass some form of judgement which I did suggest is not really a good thing to do.

I think you are a good man and I understand how you feel (I think I do but I always wonder can we ever feel what another really feels) but you probably cant take any more ground on this campaign.
You have offered your view and you know that some will accept it and perhaps act differently and some will reject it and forget this thread by the end of the month day or minute.
You need to be content that although you cant change the world you can make a difference. And I know you make a difference a d if you have moved only one heart to compassion and kindness such that one creature gains another minute of life you have improved things a little.
I dont think we should judge folk and say well now you know but you havent changed you are bad.. I dont think that is kind.. We can only hope in time they may change.

Change for the better will take thousands of years and I doubt there will ever be a time when things are perfect... What is perfect? What is truth? Why are we here? Where did I put my keys?

You know you have a big job but you should not fret because you cant change the world you just need to keep caring and have faith you really do make a difference.
I think everyone who reads this thread will think about what you raise and maybe some will change their action.

Be kind other notice.

Alex

[clive milne]

John, I understand that Les' input in (the other thread) was perceived as being inflammatory, however, I cannot help but feel that you have to some extent misrepresented his position.

In this thread he has explicitly made the distinction between hunting for food and inflicting unnecessary pain for the purpose of entertainment. Les also made that distinction in your previous thread (much of it now deleted) as well as pointing out that (in his opinion) the rules of conduct, such as they are, were routinely abused by most (not all) participants.

If memory serves me correctly, Les also made the suggestion that the act (of fishing) is cruel, as opposed to levelling the accusation that ALL fishermen are innately cruel, a subtle but significant difference.

fwiw) I don't necessarily need to agree with Les to argue for accuracy in how his words are interpreted.
(I am willing to accept that my interpretation may also be in error. If so, then I am happy to be corrected)

2c

[sharpiel]

Again Alex your thoughts are both educational and welcome.

You are correct that we shouldn't judge each other. I don't enjoy being judged and I know it's an emotional thing for most people. I don't mean to judge and for those who may have been offended and felt judged, to you my heartfelt apologies.

My main purpose with this thread is to generate discussion around inconsistencies and opposites in thought processes and activities that we all use to make ourselves comfortable with our actions. I'm sure I act inconsistently through my life as well. The previous paragraph discussing judgment is a prime example. These inconsistencies though once brought to light are powerful tools to move us individually towards internally unified actions.

In this thread those inconsistencies and illogicalities revolve around different standards of treatment towards animals. On one hand we protect our companion animals and at the same time we inflict needless suffering upon others. Sometimes for the joy of the action.

These same inconsistencies can also be identified in our treatment of each other.

The title of this thread is inflammatory. I recognise that. It not only arose from a former thread but I recognised that Its a vehicle to garner interest in this thread. It generates involvement in the discussion. And I think this discussion has been extremely illuminating. I hope it helps people towards a unified direction in their daily activities.

Thank you also Clive for your input. Again without the generous thoughts of others on both sides of the debate no exploration of alternative ideas is possible.

[xelasnave]

Most folk are busy, there is no time to stop and think.
I have enjoyed the absolute luxury of thinking.
If find so much pleasure in observing living things from microscopic up.
And when you observe things I think you gain compassion, well I have.
I am in the city at the moment but I have a small group of lizards who I like to observe.
They are wonderful, I know I should not but I feed them and it surprises me what they will eat when it comes from me.
I know many humans would be frightened by them and rather them dead but those folk miss so much I can only hold pity for that type of human.
I have a snake up home who has the run of the house but he is not much fun as he just hangs around and does not move much.
I have geckos as well they are very interesting and very fast and very territorial.
I even let the spiders live in peace.
I have a bat that hangs over the end of my bed and I have to put the mattress up because it leaves droppings, which I call its rent and put it in the compost.
Well its better than letting it upset me.
And one day I saw it there with its little baby that did it I cant sell that house its home for many.
It was so cute it near bought tears to my eyes.
There are mice but the snake takes care of them... Main thing is not to leave one single scrap of food anywhere so they have no reason to stay.
Mostly they are a little hopping mouse very cute.

So I can understand how observation will extend tolerance.

Alex

[sharpiel]

Alex you truly humble me.

[bugeater]

You view them as "inconsistencies and illogicalities" due to your own personal views which are not necessarily the same as others.

I in no way want to be "cruel" but I do catch and release fish. Do I think I'm being cruel? No. But if someone actually proved to me that fish do suffer in that situation (rather than simply exhibit a instinctual pain response), then I would seriously reconsider my participation. Hence my comments about plants. They do respond to damage, but frankly don't experience pain. But where is the point where the characteristics of the organism allow it to experience pain, and then, more importantly (in my mind), actually "suffer"?


I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. Find a point where we can all agree and work from there. No need to resort to latin :D

[dimithri86]

Im also conflicted between liking meat and not being happy with killing animals for food, when we have so many other options. As a temporary solution solution I've reduced my consumption of meat. I suspect we probably eat a lot more meat than in good for us, and we could probably benefit from eating less, and more veggies. 2 meat days and 1 fish day, is quite easy for me to do, without feeling like I am giving up something. If I get to 1 meat day and 1 fish day a week, I'll be happy, its a good balance between looking after nature, and still fulfilling out natural instincts to eat meat.

On a side note, for some reason I am particularly against seafood like lobster and crab. When I was a kid my parents once tried to get me to eat me, and I refused, and I have never eaten it. For me its the form it comes in, like i can stomach a fillet of fish, but having the whole fish or lobster in front of me really puts me off. I was particularly put of yesterday when I saw a cooking show about cooking lobster, and how you should keep it alive till you get it home and put in the freezer to put it to "sleep".

[clive milne]

Incidentally... on somewhat of a tangent.

For anyone concerned with the welfare of creatures that dwell in wild marine environments... One of the single biggest things you can do to help preserve them is to stop eating beef, or rather become vegetarian... it's a climate change thing, of course.

[Nath2099]

I think having a nervous system would be a good minimum.

[xelasnave]

Embracing cannibalism is our only hope really.:eyepop:

Alex

[clive milne]

What is required is a revolution in agriculture, away from the energy / fertiliser / transport / poison dependent and profit driven monoculture towards closed loop, nutrient recycling, zero impact and locally grown foods.
And that is going to require a seismic cultural shift... globally.
It will require a change in attitude towards insects and detritivores. Even if we are not overly wrapped in the idea of eating them, they simply must become part of the food chain, even if it is just to be used as a way of turning vegetable waste waste in to protein (fish food)., and then on through the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle - nutrients back to the plants (Aquaponics, basically)

I expect that the Black soldier fly (aka: the compost piranha) and Gammarus (micro shrimp) will feature big in the future.

[rrussell1962]

A lot of very interesting posts in this thread. To follow on from Clive's point about not eating Beef, it is slightly absurd that globally around a third of the commercial fish catch is used to manufacture fish meal for animal feed.

[dimithri86]

And the situation will get worse, as India's and China's growing middle class can afford more meat.

Thought on artificial meat?

[tlgerdes]

So where do I fit in? I enjoy fishing to eat the fish I catch, (im a member of PETA, People Eating Tasty Animals).

But in order to get the fish that I want to eat, I have to throw quite a few back. Do I just stop after the first undersized fish I reel in?

I don't like unnecessary cruelty try to anything.

[deanm]

When I was a kid, I asked my father if catching fish on a hook hurt them.

He reassured me that they have no feeling around their mouths.

It was only as an adult biologist that I understood that this is nonsense & the mouth parts of fish are the most sensitive part of their anatomy - for feeding.

I've never fished since that realisation.

Dean

[AussieTrooper]

The best thing for the Australian environment would be if far fewer people ate pork or beef, and switched to rabbit and venison that they hunted themselves. Both those animals are in plague proportions, and doing plenty of damage.

[xelasnave]

So you agree we must embrace cannibalism.

Dont you love it when a thread goes off the rails smashing thru the toes as if they are only there to mark the accident... but seeing we are on the otherside of the fence....

We know what is wrong, we know why it is wrong, we know how to fix it but nothing will happen other than we pay more for coal/electricity to run airconditioners to cool our big houses with trendy dark roofing.

Sure we are getting alternative power but as good as it is money is made from it and if not it would not happen I suspect.

I mean solar panels and no one knows what a battery bank is must tell us something.

I have always believed global warming has been seized upon by special interest groups to sell their product.. NP in particular. I mean you have deep green hippies saying NP is the answer. The answer is use less power firstly, curb rampant childish greed second.

I cant believe we tolerate folk developing a 400 klm car or any car that can travel faster than say 120 klms... And food really its not about nourishment it is about the pleasure of taste and sheer gluttony.

Too many humans is the problem, moreover to many greedy humans.

And clothes, why did you get me started... I go to the shopping center and walk thru what seems acres of clothes in Big W, K mart, Target and I know there are many other big stores but outside every second shop is a clothing shop.

Heck in Hornsby alone you would think that center supplied the whole of Australia.. I spend $30 on a new outfit every year wheter I need them or not $8 for pants $5 for t shirt maybe $12 to $20 for a jacket. I don't get cold but I dont dress to impress...

But you wont change a thing.. Will never happen.

Then the food, I look at the trolleys at the super market and quickly understand why the pusher can barely squeeze thru the otherwise roomy exit shute.

Global warming bring it on... Something comes to mind reap what you sow...

Anyways back on track.

The animals, some will survive us, our society its dependence upon tight shedules and demands of return on captital will see it crumble if trucks are off the road for a week, and if you take the time to think what can go wrong real fast you will never worry about climate change.

We cant stop drugs, we cant stop domestic violence we can't stop the various wars yet somehow we can stop the planet hotting up... No I really dont think so.

It should not be how to stop it all effort must go as to how humans s will survive in the new environment.. Like when the big rock hit the smart animals were under ground...

Alex

[MortonH]

I don't like hunting and I despise intentional cruelty to animals but in the big picture any damage or suffering caused by recreational fishing/hunting is insignificant compared to mankind's everyday impact on the environment.

Think about where you are right now while reading this. Whether you're in a building, outside on the street or in a vehicle, the ground underneath you used to be covered with trees and plants and was teeming with life. How many billions of organisms were destroyed while the road was laid or your house was built? And what happened to the creatures that weren't destroyed? Were they relocated to a nice new home? Of course not, they were simply forced to fend for themselves elsewhere. And as we know from many places around the planet, destruction of habitat leads to some animals starving to death and possibly becoming extinct.

I understand why some people don't like fishing or hunting and I generally agree with them but, if you pardon the pun, there are bigger fish to fry.

[raymo]

I agree with you about hunting being pretty insignificant in the scheme of things, but around the world fishing is more popular than any other form of recreation, resulting in millions of fish being in severe pain at any one
moment in time, and to cap it off, many are discarded because of being
an inedible species. Then you have the *-&%2s that cut off shark fins and
toss the sharks back into the ocean to die, and the Japanese who
slaughter whales for "scientific purposes". IMHO humanity is just about
the worst calamity to ever befall this planet, with the possible exception of the occasional asteroid impact a while ago.
raymo

[75BC]

Alex, Morton and Raymo have touched on something I have quite a strong opinion on, for the planets sake alone. I usually keep it to myself because not a lot of people I talk to would agree.

I believe that the level of human population is the biggest threat to all living things future survival. I saw a program on TV not long ago of a meeting between Barack Obama and Sir David Attenborough. It was the first time I had heard a world leader mention the threat of an over populated planet and how we can address it.

I did hear a scientist say something once that I found quite humorous and it was that the only thing on this planet in plague proportions is humans. :)

[MortonH]

Unfortunately human competition for natural resources will likely make things worse instead of better.

[bojan]

I agree.
If things go on the way they at the moment, in couple of hundreds of years each human will have only 0.5 m^2 of space available, including continents and ocean floor.
The total collapse of civilization will happen much earlier.
And the western world was criticizing Chinese one-child policy...

[75BC]

We’ve had a number of shark attacks in WA in recent years and I have conflicting emotions over what should be done about it. :question:

On the one hand I can fully understand peoples wanting sharks to be hunted / culled, especially friends and family of attack victims and the victims themselves. I enjoy taking a dip in the ocean but now worry about sharks.

But on the other hand, even when there is an attack I would think that the shark responsible has not done it just for recreation.

Therefore I usually lean more to the side of the shark.

[bojan]

The Nature fights back...

[MortonH]

Going into the ocean carries KNOWN risks, one of which is a shark attack. If you choose to enter THEIR environment you accept that risk. You can't blame a hungry shark for eating you if you jump onto its dinner plate.

[xelasnave]

Well Mr Trump may have arrived just in time.
When does he get the launch codes by the way.

I was thinking earlier we must arrive at a point where we need to get rid of various slecies because they take too much food out of the system.

Think of all the fish those damn sea birds eat, good food that could feed humans, and the whales eating all that krill.

Seems crazy but is it so hard to imagine a future where species are reviewed to determine how much protein that are stealing from humans.

I can see a book and a movie here.

Nevertheless I am somewhat positive in attitude and expect that some terrible war or disease will cull at least half of humanity so I really believe there is hope for a good future.

Er something doesnt seem right here but I cant put my finger on what it is.

What I find strange with humans is we breed all sorts of animals under ridgid programs and yet to think of doing that with humans is not thought about.. Its too wild to be spoken about..

I have said before we should be breeding humans smaller and smaller, get them down to about a foot tall.

Think of how such a statedgy would ease ptessure on resources. My house has 10 foot ceilings I could get 7 or 8 floors and subdivide the floor area... well you can see how we could house more for a reduced resource cost.

Food.. Gee a pizza would feed a little family for a week.

But one wonders about the future.

I cant see a happy ending but what can be done. What will be done...

Alex

[MortonH]

Alex,

I believe the intended solution is to colonise other planets and stuff them up too.

[xelasnave]

But we can.
We are supreme, the world is ours and all religions support that notion.
Kill those damn sharks.
Kill the mosquito.

The reason I dont kill is to distance myself from that human arrogance.

I still eat meat, fish chook and that may seem hypocritical but I do think one can make a statement if only to oneself that you are not arrogant and at least realise you can somehow be a little better and svae the little creatures you have direct control over.

For me it is just not being like so many who really believe it is their God given right to disregard all other life.

I tell you another thing I hate.
A dog bites someone they kill it. A human kills someone they get councelling.
The poor dog has no idea but pays with its life.. A human knows it has done wrong to kill yet no death penalty.

I think I will start a new thread and list all I dont like... Just the op should go for a few pages.

Alex

[Nath2099]

Optimistic bunch aren't we!

EDIT: I feel the same BTW. If western civilization lasts another 100 years I'd be surprised. I wonder as to the thoughts of those who have been cryogenicaly frozen on their thawing... "What the hell did you all do?"...

[alocky]

Although it's only tangentially relevant to the op here, Jared Diamonds book "collapse" details the usual history of overconsumption leading to collapse of the supply chain for most of the "great" civilisations. His telling point is that now we have a globalised supply chain, the next collapse will probably also be global. Another distressing observation of the final stages of these historic collapses is the evidence of cannibalism in the last layer of human bones.
So if we are to be hunting each other for food shortly I'm all for encouraging people to give up these immoral and cruel pastimes to ensure the playing field is well and truly tilted in my favour.

[Kunama]

Puts a new twist to the idea of having Chinese for dinner ;)
Whilst I agree with Les that 'sport' fishing is not the nicest pastime, the question rises, where do we stop? Horse racing, greyhound racing, falconry et al....
Horses don't run around the track because they love it....... and those not fast enough do not have a happy ending.....

[xelasnave]

Izak Asimov wrote a book of short stories or notes with very interesting stuff I cant recall what was called however he wrote about the rate of human expansion. How long it would take until there were only humans on the planet and all protien used most efficiently. I think he predicted one human for every square meter but he took the approach out to the stars and unfortunately I cant recall the time frame but it was not long before we eat out the galaxy.

Maybe someone has the book and can tell us what I am talking about.

Alex

[xelasnave]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[MortonH]

Soylent Green with chips please.

[xelasnave]

Would breeding humans for food be wrong.
I mean think of the exploitation that we tolerate would it be such a big step.
You know there must be a way.
How different is it to breeding pigs or cattle.
Just lives no big deal.

Maybe that is not an idea I should let out there because sadly there may be folk out there who will see the huge untapped market.
I think I will go out now I feel the need.. . Maybe I have been indoors a little too long.
Alex

[Kunama]

My dear wife has a different method of fishing, she doesn't like the thought of hurting the fish so she just has a sinker on the end of the line and then puts a ball of dough above the sinker and lets the fish feed on it........

[75BC]

I like watching wildlife docos but struggle with the bits where you see the animals killing each other. I realize they have to eat but I always feel for the one being eaten.
I do like meat but if I couldn't get it in a packet at the shop I'd starve. :lol:

[sharpiel]

Today has been a hard day for me. I have despaired for our future. I spent the whole day trying to re-teach a wild Lorikeet hit by a car this morning severely concussed with swelling on her brain how to use her feet again. She may never re-learn. I have a room full of them. Beautiful rainbow lorikeets whose feet are useless twisted balls.

They'd be dead in the wild but they soldier on in my sanctuary thankful for their lives as they are...they never cease to humble me with my first world problems. I laugh to think of them now. A broken door latch...out of date computer. An ongoing debate with a recreational fisherman...

They all appreciate my efforts on their behalf and reward me with the glory of their individual personalities. And they love their lives here. They fly and rejoice in the birth of every day. They like I, revel in life. Ask is it kinder to have them euthanised? No...transient pain beats eternal death hands down. They are eubellient, joyful creatures revelling in their second chances. They understand fully their place now in the world and they appreciate it as you wouldn't believe had you not shared it with them.

The world will never change. Until it becomes to expensive not to. Then watch the revolution in social values and the rise of the new hypocrisy.

[Nath2099]

Don't forget to look after yourself as well as your animals friend. I don't know you, but you seem the kind of person I like to think a lot of us aspire too be. What you do for those animals is to be congratulated. Some of us fellow human beings do recognize it, and appreciate your work.

[Kunama]

Having seen Les's home firsthand, I am in awe of his (and his partner's) dedication to the rescue and rehabilitation of those beautiful creatures.....

An example to us all !

[bobson]

Interesting post, it tells a lot about us as humans.
A lot of extreme views from both sides.
The truth is as always somewhere in the middle :)

To stir things up lets not forget culling kangaroos, brumbies, water buffalo, rabbits, frogs and so on.

Or lets really stir things up :)

So if Alex saves mosquito that happens to carry Ross river virus or some other disease and that mosquito infects a person(s). Should Alex be held responsible for not doing right thing and kill that mosquito?

I am sure as a lawyer he will have right answer :)

[xelasnave]

I keep those ones aside until they get better.

Alex

[bobson]

I knew you would :D

cheers

bob

[bobson]

207021

[xelasnave]

Funny thing is mosquitoes never seem to bite me.
So I have less reason to swat them.

On a serious note I can understand the need to control mosquitoes who cause disease but its only the females who suck blood I am told so maybe the females avoid me just like the human females.

And I think that may be my high intake of garlic, ginger and chillies.

Probably makes the skin taste crook.

As to the legal position something so complex would require that we brief a barrister practicing in that area of the law, a specialist in all things relating to blood sucking, maybe a silk in tax avoidence but that requires someone pay a huge sum into a trust account to cover the fee.

That being the case I will play it safe and be careful to only release fully recovered creatures.

What would happen if I meet a lady and we spend the weekend together and she gets a cold.

Do I put her on the bus home thereby possibly exposing myself for a suit for negligence if someone on the bus contracts a cold sneezes drops their expensive phone breaking it and wants compensation from me...
Or do I try to keep her confined and risk kidnapping charges.
That does it no ladies get to stay the weekend anymore, except sick lady mosquitoes.

Alex

[alan meehan]

Just my 2bobs worth I have been wanting to go fishing for a few weeks now I do enjoy fishing I have since I was a kid ,but some weeks back I brought some tropical fish to put in a old tank that I got from a garage sale it is interesting to whatch the fish as they socialize together and how they now me when each morning I go to feed them its a good expierance and has turned me off going fishing just for the fun of it .also for MATT I think horses do like running around a track I know as I owner of a x race horse that our jazz just loves getting up and running and not all race horses end up as pet food ours is loved by all the family
AL

[Kunama]

I don't doubt that horses enjoy running, (our arab/tb gelding loved to run) just that they would not choose to run around a track.... Race horses don't really have much choice though, do they Alan.
They are fed such a 'hot' diet they take quite some time to adjust to normal. I am always glad to hear that an ex-racehorse has become a pet, many do not make good pets and can be rather dangerous in inexperienced hands.... but that is another thread altogether.

Studying fish in their habitat has been one the most enjoyable pastimes I have had, after hundreds of scuba dives, many of them within arms reach of sharks including 3m long tigersharks and schools of hammerheads, I have given up fishing.

[jenchris]

I have to say that I'm disturbed by how members are reacting to trivialities.
Like how many animals died because my house was built.
None, I have a soil test that saus 0 percent soil. Ie desert conditions. And now there's a hundred or so trèes on my block.
Animals, I eat some but not much of them.
I've mentioned on this forum before, I think, before you eat an animal you must have killed and prepared one.
If you cannot(kill) you must not(eat).
We talk about green and carbon footprints. Yet few realise that a labrador has the same carbon footprint as a Toyota Landcruiser.
Morality of causing pain, yet we allow Halal slaughter.
Fishing, whilst there is sensation round a fish's mouth, is there a pain sensor?
Where do we get off judging others?
How do we justify telling Trump he must accept losing the vote and not accept him winning it?
On Solar or green power. On expansion of economies. On accepring refugees who are culturally immiscable.
Do what you like but don't invade my space...... nimbyism?
I've hunted for the table yet won't kill a spider in my home if it isn't toxic.
I have a garden full of animals who accept me... the stonebush curlew eggs hatched this morning.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Do or do not, there is no try.

[rally]

I thought I was going to abstain from this one . . . but here goes.

I wonder what everyone's opinion from both sides thinks of the philosophical argument in this article.

http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659

I've seen this argument better quantified elsewhere - but the fact is that vegetarians who eat agriculturally farmed produce of any sort are contributing to the death of organisms from microbes to mammals due to habitat destruction at a minimum, and even if they were weren't eating farmed food, they would be competing against the native animals that would have otherwise been eating the same vegetable matter they removed from the natural environment, thus starving and creating food pressure for them.

Either way humans are doing this.

I do think that there is a failure in the starting assumption that the natural world is supposed to be a "kind" place - predation is a fundamental process at almost every level of the animal kingdom, and it has been this way for millions if not billions of years.

To argue against it is not dissimilar to creating a movement that says we shouldn't allow the Earth to spin or the tides to rise and fall.
This is the way it is and it has nothing to do with us or our beliefs.

I agree that death or injury for no reason isnt tenable, but a vast number of the species on this planet evolved to eat other species - you can choose to dislike it, just like you mightn't like Purple and Orange together. Thats OK - but dont then translate that dislike to everything else associated with it if you arent able to deal with that reality.

I breathe in air which include oxygen, I consume energy and exhale some CO2 - doesnt make me personally bad !
But yes, a few billion less humans wouldnt be so bad for the natural world and that is where the focus ought to be in IMHO.
At some substantially lower population level we might be able to exist with a greater level of harmony with the other inhabitants of this planet - be they whales or microbes.
That could only be a good thing - if it could be done without some sort of armageddon !

But to intimate that meat eaters and specifically fishers and hunters are therefore cruel, arrogant people and should become vegans is about as hypocritical as anything can be.

I have no specific need to criticise Les or anyone - he is entitled to his beliefs, opinions and certainly his likes and dislikes.
In fact my beliefs aren't so vastly different, and I respect anyone that has respect for animals and helps them, but just because I also eat them, sometimes hunt them, doesnt mean that I dont have respect for them and doesnt mean that I am intentionally cruel to them.

Regards

Rally

[xelasnave]

Well I just heard on QI that wind turbines kills goats...
If you don't know how care to guess?
If you do know put it up.
So the problem should wind turbines be banned or should goat herders be held to a higher level of responsibility and not let goats near turbines?
Alex

[sharpiel]

I don't believe that anywhere ever on IIS have I stated that I am vegan or that anyone else should be vegan. This is a misrepresentation and a distortion of my statements here. Nor have I stated fishers or hunters are arrogant. I have asked whether we as a race are arrogant in some of our beliefs of superiority to other sentient life.

My posts here simply stated that subjecting animals to cruelty for the sake of our entertainment is unacceptable and should be banned and I juxtaposed the treatment of fish in this respect to other companion animals pointing out some illogicalities and inconsistencies.

[rally]

I havent distorted the facts at all, and maybe you didnt say you were a vegan and someone else did, just that you were abhorred by the process by which humans get the majority of their dietary protein from animals.

You put up a clearly defined and clearly directed argument and it makes no difference about the semantics of how you phrased it.

Your last sentence in your last post "subjecting animals to cruelty for the sake of our entertainment is unacceptable and should be banned " would probably have been better used as your opening argument for the thread. But that isnt what you did,

Your opening statement.

"My point is that fishing and hunting require the destruction of a life which is very precious to the entity that loses it and destroys the families of the entity who remain behind.

We abhore war for the loss of human life and the families bereft and left behind by this senseless destruction. And yet it's ok when we do the same to other life forms for our own entertainment. Are we so arrogant that we think our life is more precious than any other?

Perhaps the hunters and those who fish for the sole purpose of recreation...not because they are starving and need to hunt/fish to survive, can explain what pleasure it is they gain from the taking of another entity's life and why they think this is any different to the cruelty that's perpetrated upon other animals such as cats and dogs which society says is illegal. "

You opening sentence starts with "fishers and hunters" and your interpretation of what they do, in your next sentence you then draw a parallel between this loss of life and that of humans and call it arrogance that we regard this as any different.
You finish off with the sentence aimed fairly and squarely at "hunters and those who fish".

Sorry Les but you being quite hypocritical and it is you who launched this attack and its just me defending it, an attack on the way life has evolved on this planet and its natural consequences no less !

Your preferred food source must obviously be vegetarian, mine is omnivarian, and I will add that I grow a lot of my own in my 300-400m2 vegetable gardens and more again of fruit trees.
I know and accept that either of the two primary food sources displaces wildlife and I dont like it either, in fact vegetarians are at least equally responsible for the death and loss of natural organisms despite what you would like to believe that the mere fact that someone who doesn't eat an organism is not causing that species any harm.
Its such a simplistic and isolated view of what is actually happening that it astounds me everyone doesnt understand it.

If I was to take your approach and start an attack on vegetarians which isnt something I would do except for making this point by substituting vegetarian and consequences into your same sentence.

My opening statement could be -
"My point is that vegetarianism requires the destruction of natural habitat and all the life forms that inhabited it, which is very precious to the entities that loses it and destroys not only the families of the entity who remain behind but also every living creature in the vicinity."

Do you not understand this extremely simple byproduct of agriculture ?
Or is it that you are being selectively blind to justify a mistaken belief so that you can launch an attack against those who dont share your belief ?

I dont object to your having a belief, but I do object to you using a mistaken belief to criticise and attack others in such a hypocritical way.
I would also like to point out that the vast majority of hunters in this country hunt feral species - they hunt the very species that are displacing our native wildlife, most I know also eat what they hunt.

The real problem is humanity's expansion as the dominant species is causing massive destruction of the natural environment, it is no longer in harmony with the natural environment due to our over population and our seemingly ever increasing dependence on harvesting everything from the natural environment to the detriment of the environment and without respect for it.

Like I said, I am not disagreement with what I feel is probably one of your fundamental underlying concerns, but I dont need to single out a particular (majority) group of the population to express my position and nor would I do this knowing it to be hypocracy.

[mountainjoo]

Sheesh, a lot of uncharitable discussion here... Rally, to say that a vegetarian diet is at least equally responsible, when compared to a standard meat based diet, for the displacement and destruction of natural organisms is incorrect. It is also immensely more efficient and less resource intensive. I can provide links to several sources if you are interested.

[The_bluester]

And there I think is the nub of most of the human races problems.

Combine a biological drive to reproduce at a rate as close to rabbits as we can collectively manage and a world economic system which focusses on profit and is predicated on a constantly growing "Consumer" base and therefore a constantly growing population and a fair few of our species problems fall out of that.

I am not entering into the hunting/fishing argument. Particularly when the promise/threat? is right there on the first page of this thread that it was being copied complete by the OP. IMO "I will make sure we all remember what everyone said" is not a good debating tactic.

[xelasnave]

Perhaps we need to remain calm and respectful.

And avoid the trap of you said I said discussion.

For my part I feel uncomfortable when moralising because I know although I try my best I can never be perfect. All one can do is the best they can.

I dont like the fact after any of my trips my windscreen tells a story of many deaths of poor little creatures the victims of hit and run, but I must drive and so it is so

But there are little things we can do both in actual prevention of damage and in presenting a face to the world that may cause others to think about something they have never thought about before.

And the chalenge is to point out something with tact.

In any event lets stay very calm and not cause the toes to be ammended to exclude discussion on these matters.

Much of our frustration may come from the realisation that humans cause a lot of damage that we individualy can not alter but feel, reasonably, that somehow being human we are partly responsible.

The OP seeks to get us to simply think about something most of us have never thought about and if you think deeply about the proposition it probably will make one feel uncomfortable.

But please let's not have a i said you said discussion... Readers can read and work out what was said... Peace
Alex...

[rally]

Jerome - it is substantially correct.
Did you read the link - there are plenty of well argued and scientifically supported cases around.

How much of the world has been clear felled to make way for crops ?

How many organisms do you think died initially, were displaced and failed to be able to reproduce and have been poisoned to death or excluded from the land due to monoculture ?
Im not just talking about sentient or semi sentient organisms - I mean the whole lot from single celled and upward.
A natural environment carries a huge biodiversity which has a huge carbon footprint - this is mostly made up believe it or not, from sub surface micro organisms and sub surface vegetation, funghi etc etc.
Once crops like grains are planted - this completely disappears.
Net effect more carbon in the atmosphere.

To ignore this is to stick your head in the sand - charitable or not.

The thrust of my defence is to illustrate that those who seek to argue that those who eat meat are responsible for the death and or suffering of animals are in fact no less responsible than those who dont eat meat - that is all. It just happens in a different way.
Its not so graphic, its not so obvious and its so much more sanitarily hidden from view than a bloodied animal carcass at an abattoir or a butchers shop that evokes such emotional hysteria - but it is death and diplacement of animal life and its a monstrously huge cause none the less.

The reason is - evolutionarily - we need to eat (ie we dont photosynthesize), either way at extreme levels it contributes to the death and displacement of other living organisms.
I have to accept this and live with it too.

The problem isnt that we eat meat and/or vegetables - the problem is we eat too much, we simply devour too much from our environment because there are too many of us and too much of our resources because of our lifestyle.

That is all.

Im not attacking the vegetarian diet - just pointing out the invalidity of the argument raised by some.

A solution - we add chlorophyllic genes to our human DNA and start photosynthesising !!
Im just kidding of course, but hey that might help the situation - we just run around nude sunbaking and eat as much sunlight as we like !
I wonder if Sunset sunlight tastes better than Noon sunlight ?

[bugeater]

I personally think the OP's original topic raises interesting questions. But the problem is that when you take an essentially religious position, you're pretty much saying "I'm right and you're wrong and nothing you say can change my mind. But I want you to change your mind based on my fact-free conviction".

Statements like "I can tell you from personal experience that all animals feel pain and suffer" are a problem for me. I'd like to establish the truth of such a statement. Because I know it not to be true - some animals barely have a brain to speak of, so how could they possibly suffer? For me the question is - which animals are capable of "suffering"? Of course if you start taking a spiritual "all life is precious" approach, then we are back to religion again.

I do find it pretty inflammatory to come out and basically target a group of people (hunters and fishers), call them hypocrites, state their position as logical and inconsistent and then show absolutely no attempt to understand their position.

[clive milne]

According to federal environment minister; Wind turbines are an instrument of the devil. As such, they require a goat to be sacrificed upon commissioning, otherwise, nearby grazing animals will be prone to drop dead from noise stress.... carried off to hell, as it were.

[alocky]

I should add to the list of apologies- it was I who assumed that the logical extension of the OPs workdview was that to be consistent he must be a vegan, and only because I was genuinely impressed by the high level of empathy he clearly has with all things. He and Alex remind me of the Jainist monks of India, who hold life so dear that ants are gently brushed aside when they walk. Noble indeed.
My main point was that the best he can do is make people stop and think, which he has done. Banning things is a step too far. I can't argue about the role of law here with the kind of sophistication Alex can master, but I remember reading a famous book called Leviathan, and the statement that resonated with me was that the only time law should intervene in your actions is when they affect someone else. If "someone else" includes all paramecium, then you have one perspective. I guess humanity currently spans the entire spectrum from regarding the whole biosphere as having equal rights, all the way down to just themselves. I also think the bandwidth depends on your economic position and responsibilities to dependents.
Personally, when I'm hunting people for food for my family in the post-apocalyptic world of tomorrow, I will be glad I'm a good shot, and suspect my empathy spectrum will be very narrow.

[xelasnave]

Hi Marty
Sorry I could not let it pass.
If you believe I am spiritual or religious I can only say I have given you an incorrect impression.
I am neither, I am an athiest's athiest.
I like to think I have good christian principles its just that I dont believe in God, that Jesus was the son of God or the resurrection. I like to be kind and rather peace than war but I really like cage fighting. I see no inconsistencies in my philosophy other than I would not call it a philosophy.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Well yes thats the correct answer.
And shows how little QI knows because they suggested it was something to do with low air pressure rupturing the animals lungs which of course is nonsence given there is all that wind blowing about.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Andrew the law was summed up in three principles in a book.. Diceys rule of Law.
I cant remember what they were but I am rather sure one principle was you could do what you liked so long as you did not inturude on anothers rights.
I will have a look but if such a principle is not there well it should be..
Unfortunately the way the world works many folk seek to impose their world on others it happens and like most things there can be argued pros and cons.
The law had difficulty embracing the concept of victimless crime because to do so went against Diceys, I think it was the third principle, rule of law.
There was a time when we did not have written law, other than judgements upon the unwritten law that were recorded.

[N1]

Specifically, it's not what we eat that's the problem, it's what we don't eat, and throw away instead.

[Clancy Lane]

Sure, we are all entitled to our beliefs but I can only respond to this thread with humour because, as has been shown, no matter what you offer up in these type of threads, it is either taken the wrong way, dismissed or ridiculed.

(In my opinion, that is)

There was a fishing joke I wanted to post but it is in very poor taste and those who take this seriously would probably not be amused.....so I posted this one instead!

(Bill Leak could probably do a better job!)

cheers!

[Kunama]

I am considering becoming a Fruitarian. I understand that they only eat that which falls and thus is no longer alive. The only thing stopping me at this stage is that although I have travelled extensively over the years I have yet to find a grove of trees that grows bacon, lobsters, eggs, Grolsch or whiting fillets.....

[Clancy Lane]

We need a 'Like" button Matt!

[xelasnave]

Have you considered the ants, and other creatures, that may be killed from falling fruit if we are to accept your unethical proposal.

Alex

[AussieTrooper]

I wonder how that hot dog tree I planted is going.

[bugeater]

Hi Alex, I was referring the the OP (original poster) Les, not yourself. While you are the most active in this thread, you didn't start it. :)

[xelasnave]

And let my mistake remind folk that anyone can get things wrong.
Although this is the first mistake I have ever made.
Alex

[sharpiel]

Thank you Andrew. Those are humbling words.

[Clancy Lane]

Could there be a new thread titled:

"Is it cruel to talk about banning recreational fishing"?

cheers,

Phil

[sharpiel]

Yes. Yes there could. But if that's the case how dare you hijack my thread in the interim you rude ignoramous. I don't really feel that way Clancy. Please don't be offended. It's a bit of an inside joke for those who may have seen some of the deleted posts from the original thread. Tongue in cheek actually. Please feel feee to engage in the discussion herein in anyway you wish. If you want to start your own I applaud you.

Btw I appreciate a previous comment relating to my own statement to copy the thread for future proof of things said. Please let me clarify. In no way was I implying that people's statements would be recorded and used against them. For those unaware many of the posts in the afore linked thread were censored by the moderators. My point was aimed at the censorship of freedom of expression not at those who were free to express their opinions. Again my apologies if there was misunderstanding of my wording.

I promise no copies were made or harmed in the making of this discussion.

[PCH]

Here's something you never expected to come back and bite you on the bum Alex...

You weren't kind to that bloke you decked in the pub in Tabulam that time many years ago!

Just joshing btw ;)

[xelasnave]

You are entitled to start one if you wish or if you feel strongly I doubt if Les would object to you saying something here.
But I suspect you are trying to be cheerful by injecting a little humour into this thread.
Nevertheless I will make a comment on the proposition that you raise.

As I mentioned a fair ways back I think the word cruelty is probably best used where there is an intent to be cruel.
I dont think Les has it in him to be cruel or even unkind so I for one do not rate him presenting the subject as cruel.
No doubt when people think about the matter they will reach their own conclusions but I suspect many have not thought about wheter fish feel pain.
It seems there may beacase that they feel no pain although somehow it seems their experience is simply different to humans.
I personally think they must be at least very stressed.
You can dismiss the idea that they feel pain and rate folk who may be, by your standard, overly concerned with animals welfare as folk you could make fun of, and that is up to you.
I have found as the years pass by ones opinion can change and often when we look back think things we said years ago are now foolish.

Anyways if you wish to open a thread that would be great.

Alex

[xelasnave]

I am a different man in so far as I dont fish and once I was a very keen fisherman.

When each of my marriages broke up I would have said my partners were 100% in the wrong whereas today I honestly believe that it was me that was 100% in the wrong.

I am sure I havent decked anyone at the pub, I blocked two kicks from one chap to show him up but I did not hit him.

We went outside but I settled him down and convinced him it was not a good idea.

The guy at the new years party fell and hit his head and I did not hit him despite what the eye witnesses said. They were wrong. They saw what they wanted to see.


If I have said here that I hit someone it has now gone from my memory.

I won am arm wrestle that caused a stir maybe you are thinking of that.

If you know a post where I have said I hit someone I would like to see it so as to jogg my memory.

I like fighting but I cant recall hitting anyone for many years.

Once upon a time maybe but I never ever started a fight... Honest. And I never did more than I had to most ended with one straight left to their nose. After that they would regain their manners.
Alex

[PCH]

Hey Alex,

Like I said, I was only joking - no biggie.

In response to someone else's post about goings on in Tabulam, you said "I decked a bloke in a pub in Tabulam once".

The reason I remember it was because it was one of the first posts I read when I joined this site in 2007. I looked in history but you're such a prolific poster that it only goes back to May this year. But no matter, my post was supposed to be a bit of humour rather than pointing the finger. And since you don't remember the event, I guess it would be fair to say it's fallen a bit flat :)

[xelasnave]

Oh you were joking.
And I was trained mostly in jodo and jujitsu so in any real fights I went for a throw or submission. Hitting can easily damage your hand. And knocking someone out is not as easy as it seems as throw or submission is pretty conclusive.
Alex

[xelasnave]

I cant think who it could have been but that far back I was a little wild in those days.
Some of those days and nights are now hazy. Maybe I said that I nearly decked him. Or. Meant to say that..
If I did I am nkt proud of it.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Anyways if I did it would have been to stophim driving drunk... I just cant remember.
Maybe I forget unpleasant things.
Alex

[sharpiel]

Paul...be very wary of the Alex in sheep's clothing. I suspect he is subtle, clever and the master of the understatement. Never take anything he says at face value. Never play him in poker or monopoly. Clearly don't engage with him in any structures made of wire and shaped like an octagon.

Above all...if you're ever next to him on a train late at night and he asks you for whiskey and drinks down your last swallow...be sure that you already know when to hold them, when to fold them, when to walk away and (by god) know when to run...

[sharpiel]

Oh dear...did I see a reference earlier accusing me of being religious or spiritual...?

I can't be bothered to go back and find the specific quote. Let me clarify that I am only a man striving to atone for my sins. And I ask forgiveness for you all, for you know not what you say...

Anyway I have to get back to dragging this heavy cross up a hill. And the albatross hanging round my neck is holding me back. I really should return it to that old mariner and his dice playing friends...

[PCH]

Lol, - he remembers sure enough Les ;)

Ps, while I'm here, sorry for hijacking your latest thread Les, I'm such an ignoramus!

[sharpiel]

I'll see you in the octagon. Bring your rod.

[xelasnave]

Les I do not drink these days its been over a year.
I am honest and a very shy person whose humour often falls flat.
I am the person who you never notice in a crowd.
I am the person who lets everyone else go first.
Maybe I give the wrong impression but I like to think I am a timid skrt of guy.
Alex

[sharpiel]

The perfect spy...or ASSASSIN. :D

[xelasnave]

Try lawyer or real estate agent or now an old man with a walking frame.

May I take this opportunity to congratulate you on your very sucessful thread.
It may not change the world but I am confident that you havecaused many folk to think about the matter and indeed generally how humans negatively impact the planet.
You should be proud well done.
Alex

[Clancy Lane]

The skies clear, The stars are out and I'm imaging with my new FSQ106.

Maybe some-one can now start a thread about Astronomy for the next cloudy period.

Good night!

[xelasnave]

Good luck to you I am in the city at the moment and where I am has about 20 degree square viewing thru the trees.
Alex

[netwolf]

With all due respect to everyone's different beliefs. So what about the big fish that eats the small fish? i do agree that we need to make things sustainable and avoid over fishing. Also for all of us who own cats and dogs we don't exactly feed the vegetables now do we. I think the OP mentioned he runs an animal refuge now at this refuge what do you feed the animals?

humans do have I think a role to play as caretakers and ensure we don't destroy and drive species to extinction.

[xelasnave]

[QUOTE=netwolf;1284988]With all due respect to everyone's different beliefs. So what about the big fish that eats the small fish? i do agree that we need to make things sustainable and avoid over fishing. Also for all of us who own cats and dogs we don't exactly feed the vegetables now do we. I think the OP mentioned he runs an animal refuge now at this refuge what do you feed the animals?

humans do have I think a role to play as caretakers and ensure we don't destroy and drive species to extinction.[/QUOTE

The difficulty in tryingr to be better is when we look around you notice so many things that are wrong you just feel there is any point in even trying.

I still eat meat and what is worse I avoid feeling guilty about it.

And whilst I am chewing on a chop bone I will open the door to hunt out a fly.
Is it inconsistent, yes of course it is, I would be a fool not to see that..

But I try to be a little better and by trying to be a little better I move forward and maybe I can inspire another to be kinder.

Its not only the fly I am trying to be kind to its about being kind all the time to everyone and everything.

I dont think you can be selectively kind.. So even the fly enjoys my kindness but so does the poor person behind a counter who only sees and hears folk complaining and treating them as if they did not exist.

I find such Joy in showing them kindness by expressing appreciation or just making them feel that another sees them as a person.

Its what we do as humans we try to be better.
Take a better photo, improve our machinery... All of it is a process.

We dont give up because our first capture was out of focus and it can be the same with kindness and decency, we can improve, and there will be hypocracies we must endure, I try to recognise mine but I wont let my recognition cause me to give up on being kind.

Alex

[xelasnave]

And never forget.. Be kind to yourself.
Alex