Moravian cameras how do you rate them?

[gregbradley]

I am looking to get a 16200 camera. The only makers at present are FLI ML16 around USD$6750, SBIG STXL 16200 USD$6995, Moravian G3 16200 2910 Euros, QHY to be released but USD$3999.

QHY are popular but they always come across as the cheap alternative and perhaps you get what you pay for. Is that fair?

Moravian seem to be a high standard but a bit not so well known. A few use them. How are they? Would you recommend them?

In a ccd camera what you need is good cooling, low noise from the supporting electronics, fast downloads, reliability, no ghost reflections so proper anti reflection coatings, no dew, no frosting in the CCD chamber so Argon filled and hermetically sealed CCD Chambers. Low weight. Fat cameras cause problems just like with bodies!

Ideally also integrated filter wheel and guiding solutions to combat flex.

What's your experience with them? Are they good or cheap and nasty?

Greg.

[PRejto]

Greg,

As you know I've answered you privately.

For the record, Moravian cameras are absolutely not cheap and nasty. They are high quality cameras with very good build and good 2 stage cooling. Mine works beautifully with TSX. The driver is very stable. About 4-5 years ago I did have driver issues but these are long resolved and I'm happy with my camera. Do they download as fast or cool as much as an FLI, perhaps not (I actually don't know about the latest models). Personally I would buy another camera from Moravian if the need arose.

Peter

[Strawb]

I have two. Excellent build and excellent local service too. I use mine mainly with an AX103S and now trying out with a VMC 260. As Peter says the software works well also

[bugeater]

Marginally off topic, but I've been looking at these Moravian cameras too, and they do look interesting. A 16200 would be nice, but I'll probably just get an 8300.

Versus say an Atik 383L+ pros seem to be better cooling and lower dark current (apparently better than most other 8300 implementations). Also I think it works okay with an EOS lens adapter (which could be interesting).

Cons are I think the filterwheel only works with a Moravian camera and a noticeably higher price. Also not sure about Indi support for linux (should I go that way).

Decisions, decisions...

[Eden]

Hi Greg,

I haven't any experience with Moravian cameras, but it might be useful to know that QHY have invested a lot towards improving their build quality (and their service) in recent times.

[lazjen]

It's probably not relevant to most, but there's no Linux support for these cameras as far as I am aware. The other 3 brands mentioned in OP (SBIG, FLI and QHY) have Linux support.

[h0ughy]

well i still haven't used mine (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=111104&highlight=moravian) but i hope to sometime this year finally. don't regret it

[Eden]

On the subject of 16200-based cameras, QHY have just posted a sample image of NGC2264 taken with their camera.

NGC2264 on QHY16200A Camera (http://www.cyclopsoptics.com/content/images/QHY16200A-NGC2264-LRGB2.png)

It would be interesting to see some images from other manufacturers for comparison.

[Slawomir]

There is one from FLI: http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=141626

[gregbradley]

That looks good. Its the surrounding camera, accessories and software compatibility that makes the difference.

My experience with cameras has been SBIG, FLI, Starlight Express. All have been good. I had problems with FLI and SX with software compatibility and they were a bit of a struggle to get up and running in the software I used but that's all past and their current software is up to date (SX was still a bit of a struggle though).

How is QHY in that regards? Does it work in Sky X? CCDsoft? or only Maxim?

Same with Moravian. I don't want another software fight. I'm done on those.

Greg.

[bugeater]

I've been looking around at linux support for Moravian and a discussion in the indi forums suggests an indi driver will be out very soon, plus an updated linux driver.

[E_ri_k]

Hey Greg, I had problems with my QHY's and The SkyX, sometimes they'd connect, and other times not. I found the built in QHY driver support didn't work and I had to use ASCOM, but still it was hit and miss.

May work for others though, I just stuck to using MaximDL & ASCOM in the end. I'm using SGP now and the QHY's work fine through ASCOM.

Erik

[gregbradley]

You must have an unusual setup as I am not aware of any astro software that is Linux based. Is it a custom setup?

Linux compatibility is not something I personally require.

Greg.

[gregbradley]

Ouch - exactly what I don't like. Clear nights are rare enough and you go to image and something won't connect - just great! No thanks. Its reliable or its the garbage can.

Greg.

[E_ri_k]

I know the frustration! Software battles are no fun....in saying that though, ASCOM and QHY, no problem :)

Erik

[bugeater]

Seems pretty much everything you can do in Windows you can do in Linux and in many cases with the same software. Indi seems to be equivalent to ASCOM. I have a few OS-less computers lying around, so linux is a free way to get them up and operational.

[gregbradley]

Sounds good if you good at IT. I hear Linux is way more reliable and stable compared to windows. But I find Windows XP and 7 fine for my observatory. It doesn't give me any grief once you get the drivers working and the device will connect. Sometimes that part is hard to setup when its a new brand of camera for you.

Greg.

[lazjen]

Yes, just noticed this myself. It will be interesting to see how it all goes.

[PRejto]

Greg,

The Moravian driver for TSX works very well. I use it all the time and it is rock solid.

Peter

[Eden]

There are several really nice images over on Astrobin that were taken with Moravian cameras. I know Peter has turned out some great images with his.

Thanks for starting this thread, Greg. I wasn't aware that the 16200 was priced so aggressively. A sensor of this size with such a generous full well capacity makes for an attractive alternative to Sony-based cameras in the same price bracket.

The Moravian price almost seems too good to be true, considering the current exchange rate. If QHY go to market at $3999 USD, the Moravian still works out at $1100 AUD cheaper.

The price delta between brands can't be ignored and I wonder if sensor grading plays a part there? Feature-wise the FLI has a water cooling option but does this justify the huge gap? :question:

Edit: Looks like FLI and QHY are using standard grade sensors, according to their documentation. SBIG and Moravian don't specify.

[gregbradley]

FLI are always more expensive and position themselves as an upmarket high quality camera. I doubt anyone uses water cooling on a FLI camera as they already cool very hard and its easy to achieve -30C almost anytime and -40+ in winter. The CCD window will be advanced anti reflection coated and there is their RBI flush which is well implemented (I have never used it though).
You can also have dew heaters installed on the CCDwindow (my Proline has those). Electronics are very clean and downloads are fast. The body is well made and all the plugs/sockets are strong and long lasting. All the software and drivers work and they are compatible with Sky X and Maxim. But its US$6750 which may have been palatable when the Aussie dollar was at parity or even higher but now its a fortune for basically an APSc sensor not even full frame.

QHY is more expensive and both have a built in filter wheel. If there are issues with QHY compatibility with the Sky X I would not be interested as that is my acquisition platform. But I do like the look of their model with the built in filter wheel and the attachable OAG which I think is included in the price.

Moravian G3 16200 is 2910 Euros with no filter wheel and 200 odd Euros for one included. Plus an extra 200 Euros for enhanced cooling (they don't specify what that is).

A Starlight Express Trius would be good too. I find the Trius overall quite good. I don't know if Terry Platt has plans to do one. He said they may do a KAI8050 but not the 16200. I suspect they have issues with shutters and prefer sensors that don't require shutters.

Greg.

[Eden]

I can understand your concern about QHY driver problems. Aside from minor teething problems with Windows 10, the only QHY camera which has given me driver grief is the 5L-II, which a lot of folks experienced. Recent updates to the QHY SDK and drivers have addressed problems with some of their cameras, including the 5L-II (which is now a better camera as a result, with binning). It's possible that these fixes propagated to Sky X.



I am hoping SX do a Trius featuring the 16200 too. It would be nice to see something in the mid-market which has a built-in USB hub, but doesn't come with filter wheel / OAG.

[bugeater]

I did come across a page on the Moravian website that describes the enhanced cooling. It basically provides about another 5 degrees of cooling.

The prices do look good on the Moravian website, but that doesn't seem to cover the extra retail margin we get charged here....

[Slawomir]

Moravian asks 2910 Euro for G3-16200 camera with class 2 CCD, and 3670 Euro for the same camera with class 1 CCD.

EDIT: please refer to page 14 for differences between class 1 and class 2 sensors: http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/KAF-16200-D.PDF

[gregbradley]

Class 2 sensors have been the norm for ages. I don't know if there is any real gain in astrophotography from a Class 1 sensor. Richard Crisp has shown identical results with an Engineering Grade sensor.

With good calibration those little defects go anyway.

When you consider how noisy CCD cameras were 5 years ago and the great results obtained using them the little noise showing up now is nothing.

You'd better off saving the extra dollars and buying 3nm narrowband filters.

Greg.

[Eden]

Thanks for the clarification :) :thanx:

[lazjen]

Btw, if I'm reading it right, the Moravian doesn't include the 5 position internal filter wheel for 2910 EUR. It's an extra 204 EUR. I think the OAG is extra too (208 EUR)? So that's (2910 + 204 + 208) = 3322 EUR

Again, if I've read it right, the QHY includes the internal filter wheel and OAG for USD 3999.

Just mentioning it for casual observers. :) I'm not sure what else is different "component"-wise between these two, if anything.

At the time of writing this:

3322 Euro equals 5172.51 Australian Dollar
3999 US Dollar equals 5593.20 Australian Dollar

[Strawb]

Do you mean the shipping costs to get it here and GST also? Is it that excessive you think?

[bugeater]

The point is simply to compare apples with apples. There will be extra costs on the Moravian camera that may already be factored into the price of the others.

[ramv]

I should be receiving one of the very first Moravian G3 16200 cameras by the end of the month or sooner if all goes well. If weather permits, I will post a first light picture soon afterwards.

In case you are interested, it is the version with 7 position filter wheel and class 1 chip. There was recently a long thread on Cloudy Nights about C1 vs C2. The conclusion was C2 might be just a bit more noisy than C1.


--Ram

[lazjen]

What are you going to be using it on (scope, etc)?

[ramv]

I plan to use it on several scopes:
At the short end:
Tak FSQ 106 ED w/reducer.
Mid Focal Length:
Astro-physics 130 EDF/Riccardi reducer
Long
TEC ADL 300F5.6

Now I am busy building adapters for all the scopes on my lathe :)

[ramv]

My camera finally arrived after being stuck in customs for over a week!

It is absolutely beautiful and robustly made. It is exactly like an overgrown QSI (my other two cameras are QSI683 and QSI532)

I have several photos on my flickr page here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ramv/albums/72157664502592543

Over the course of the week, I will be running several tests to measure gain, full well, system noise, read noise, dark current.

End of the week might be good weather for us so I plan to take it out to dark skies and feed it some photons from my TEC 300 ADL.

[PRejto]

Ram,

Thanks for posting. Please keep us informed!

Wow, a TEC300. Love to read a review from you about that scope! Is Yuri still making these or do you have one of the few he made?

Peter

[ramv]

Hi Peter,
Your posts on CN/IIS convinced me to get the Moravian camera.
I measured the full well at 39900 electrons. Read noise is a bit higher than expected at 10.5 e. But the bias/dark frames look extremely clean. As good as my QSI cameras in every way.

I had a bit of difficulty getting their ASCOM driver to work initially but after reinstalling, everything seems to be working fine. I plan to head out to dark skies tomorrow. Hopefully everything will work ok.

Regarding the ADL300, I dont know if Yuri is making anymore but he certainly didn't make that many! There were numerous design changes while he was making them so it seems that mine might be one or maybe a handful of a kind.

I think the ADL300 fills a unique niche. Just the right focal length (1680mm) with several unique features.

For one, it is perfectly thermocompensated due to some clever engineering using a combination of metals. I usually set focus once and never bother to refocus even with 10C temperature swings. The FWHM is rock solid through the night and only dependent on altitude.

Second, collimation is straight forward and deterministic. Just two screws on back and front for tip and tilt unlike typical RCs with 3 controls.

Third, F5.6 feels just right to me, not too fast that tilt,focus and collimation become a concern and fast enough to get decent amounts of data quickly.

I have some photos here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ramv/albums/72157651692491259

[PRejto]

Thanks Ram,

That scope + camera look to be a great combination! I hope you will post some of your astrophotos here.

If you use TheSkyX the Moravian driver works very well. I'm wondering what imaging program you are using that's "forcing" you to use ASCOM. The native drivers might be more reliable.

Peter

[pixair]

Great camera! Is your Grade 1 or Grade 2?

[gregbradley]

I am interested in this camera. Did you get the enhanced cooling? Is that the 7 position filter wheel with 50mm round?

What guide camera are you using? I am using SBIG STi's and generally they are very good but occasionally the shutter fails to open when used in a hub (I presume its a voltage drop issue).

You have a very similar setup to mine that I intend to use it on. I have an AP RHA 305 with an Atlas focuser so your setup and mine are almost identical except I would want the 50mm square filters as I have those already.

Any hint of flexure problems with the OAG, filter wheel and camera? How much does it all weigh?

Greg.

[ramv]

Greg, I used the QHY5L-ii on this. Any camera with CS adapter will work just fine in the OAG. (SX lodestar, SX superstar etc.) I think you might have to ask Moravian for a different adapter for the STi.
The QHY5L-ii driver is buggy. Mechanically it uses non stainless steel screws that rusted in our dewey weather. I had all kinds of connection problems last night. I cannot recommend it one bit.
I use an SX superstar on my other camera and have never had a problem with it. Lots of people in my club use the lodestar and it works great.

I did not get enhanced cooling. The camera should get to -20c very easily even in summer in my climate. At that temperature I measured the total system noise at around 11.5 e for a 15 min dark frame compared with 10.5e of read noise. -20c seems adequate from that data point. Perhaps you might need enhanced cooling, I dont know.

I use a 7 position 50mm round filter wheel. Moravian sells the square filter wheel with their 16803 cameras but not sure if that FW works with this camera. You can check with them.

With the camera+OAG, it weighs a total of 2.9 kgs. The Atlas shrugs it off like it is nothing. Yuri put in an extra thick backplate on my scope as part of his design change. There is no flexure anywhere. I attempted to measure tilt with CCD inspector. It looks flat everywhere.
Last night we had very good seeing at my dark location (by our standards). My stars ranged from 1.9 to 2.3" FWHM to the edge of the frame. I didnt have to do very much to get this. I suspect I will struggle a lot more with my FSQ as its mechanics are not as good as the TEC+Atlas. It is also a lot faster at F3.6.

I think you will be very happy with the 16200 chip on your RH305. The pixel size is ideal to get the best resolution out of that amazing scope. I chose the Moravian mainly because of the strong USD vs Euro. At that exchange rate I paid roughly 1/2 of what I would have paid for an FLI.

Cheers,
--Ram

[ramv]

And here is first light: M106 and neighbors.

TEC ADL300,
AP900 GTO mount
FLI Atlas focuser
Home made adapter

150 mins of Luminance
120 mins of color data

Site:Rockport, WA: Howard Miller Steelhead RV park

Seeing ranged from around 1.9 to 2.6" FWHM. This is excellent by our standards here. The entire stack had an FWHM around 2.6.

I am still not fully happy with my processing and overall color in the image. But it shows what is possible with this equipment combination.

Only 150 mins of luminance and around 2 hours total of RGB. I would have got a lot more had it not been for various technical problems in the field.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1677/25757433544_ce5077b700_z.jpg

Link to full size image is here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ramv/25757433544/

[gregbradley]

Wow, lovely first light. Impressive, nice and sharp as well. Lots of detail, nice stars, a tiny amount of tilt top left corner and less on top right corner. How that relates to which corner of the camera is something you identify with a torch and taking focus images to work out how they relate. Then you can pack out the weak corner. Its probably something like .2 of a millimetre.

Greg.

[ramv]

Greg, thanks for your comments!
I think I detected some tilt while collimating. I used a hotech CT laser collimator: same as what Yuri uses in his shop. It indicated a slight tilt but I ignored it as I was getting late to head out to the dark site.
Perhaps shimming it with a feeler gauge as you suggest is easier than fixing in collimation.