Small form factor PC instead of laptop for AP

[The_bluester]

Has anyone considered using something like an Intel NUC for driving mount and capture software rather than a laptop? If you are not familiar with a NUC it is a small form factor PC. Basically a ready to go PC neeting only memory, a drive of some sort and an OS, in a box about 100mm square by 50mm tall. we have a number of them of varying spec levels operating as home theatre PC's.

I am just moving into low end AP and the camera I have bought is somewhat limited due to age as to what OS would support it (I knew that before buying it) basically I need 32 bit Windows 7 or earlier.

I currently have a spare Intel NUC Celeron that I was considering installing a copy of W7 32 bit on to run some capture software and eventually, guiding. I decided to look at that to avoid downgrading the OS on my laptop to a 32 bit version. The NUC is reasonable performance wise and quite low power (In previous use as a HTPC they draw approx 15W decoding and playing video) In the case of the Celeron they also run from a 12VDC power supply so I could feed it via my power box for the mount)

Any imaging I would do would be at home so the plan would be to install remoting software such as VNC on it and run it headless (no monitor or keyboard) and drive it via Wifi from my Ipad, or potentially even from inside the house from another PC.

Can anyone see any great holes in the idea?

[Eden]

An NUC is a good idea, especially if you don't have a permanent obs PC or do not wish to use a laptop. The performance is good enough to handle even the more CPU intensive tasks (plate solving is one that comes to mind) and the only potential problem I could see is the lack of USB ports on the low-end models, which would require a hub of some kind.

They really are very small in form-factor and could potentially be integrated into the pier.

[The_bluester]

Actually my end game (However far away) is a permanent obs. I was thinking if a NUC was a workable solution I would permanently mount one on the pier and drive it via VNC or similar with a suitable USB hub attached. That is about the only NUC weakness, the one I have spare at the moment has only 3 USB ports.

[The_bluester]

So, playing around with this idea (and sticking with the Celeron NUC as I already have it, and it is a 12VDc device)

Has anyone played around with the Linux "Distro Astro" I have downloaded it and run it on the NUC from a USB stick (To save messing with my existing Ubuntu install though it does not matter much)

The only issue I have run across in messing around recently is that the Canon 350D I have is finicky to use with backyard EOS due to age. Linux appears able to see the memory card on the camera when connected by USB though it is fiddly (You need to demount and remount the camera as a device to see any images taken since the previous mount of the device)

Distro Astro comes with some handy stuff pre installed but it may be just as simple to run Ubuntu and manually install stuff like Stellarium.

[lazjen]

You're probably better off doing an install of whatever Linux you want, installing some of the core packages like Stellarium, etc. For kstars/ekos and indi, I think you need to either build from source or use some of the bleeding edge style packages - since there's often bug fixes coming through that might take some time to get to stable release packages.

[The_bluester]

I installed distro astro last night, the box is just a test mule at the moment so it does not really matter what I do with it. I can stick Ubuntu back on it in half an hour if I want.

Just working out a VNC solution to run it headless. Easy to install, less so to get it to run at boot as a service. The plan is to be able to plonk it next to the mount, power it on and go from there on a tablet or other device.

[oilydog]

Have you got a link to the linux astro dist?

[The_bluester]

http://www.distroastro.org

It is not as polished as Ubuntu, but still worth a try to see how it goes given it has a lot of the tools I would end up installing pre installed.

One tool that is promising but needs more work is a night vision mode, some things still end up white.

[Meru]

Hi Paul,

I think the NUCs are great and seem to be capable for basic tasks as you've mentioned. As an alternative, have you considered buying 2nd hand Mini-ITX parts? They can be had really cheap (especially LGA1366 sockets) and would offer significantly more flexibility and power than a NUC. Food for thought :)

[julianh72]

Is the Intel NUC similar to the Raspberry PI, where the whole OS is mounted on an SD card?

With my RPi, I just swap SD cards and reboot to have a whole "different" computer configured exactly how I want it for each task - different apps installed, different start-up scripts, and even a whole different OS if I want.

[oilydog]

Julian, the NUC's are just a mini pc using the standard computer chipset. So you can run the normal full version of windows/linux on them.

[loc46south]

Hi - I run an observatory on Solar Power and have used Small Form Factor PC's for a number of years - presently I use a Shuttle DS 47 Bare Bones System with 500GB Samsung 850SSD - 8 GB Ram and Windows 7 Professional 64 bit. It is fanless - designed for 24/7 operation and in my case runs the telescope, Focuser, SBIG camera and ST-i Guider plus the SKY X, CCD Commander. FocusMax and sundry other software without any problems and only draws 17 Watts of power.

Cheers
Geof Wingham

[DavidTrap]

I use a mini-ITX PC in a tool box under the mount. Connect to it via Remote Desktop. It handles plate solving without difficulty. Has 6 USB sockets and 2 real serial ports. I roll up all the cables and store them in the toolbox. All runs off 12V, so easy to use at my remote site.

What you are suggesting might even be better - others have mounted their small PC ontop of the OTA, so cable runs are very short with less risk of tangling.

DT

[The_bluester]

The NUC is about 100mm square with the thickness varying depending on the model. Units for USATA drive are about 40mm thick and ones designed to take a 2.5" SATA drive are about 55mm. You could run some OS's on them from a USB stick (I did that in fact with Distro Astro to have a look at it and people use USB sticks to run media centre software on them)

I tend to use proper drives as they are a lot snappier to use that way.

The other unit I wondered about was the RPi that Julian is using, it has the advantage of being even cheaper and even lower power draw but I would assume the performance would not be as good and if I wanted it to connect to Wifi then more hardware is required, plus I already have this NUC spare.

I originally bought it to run IP PABX software on to get a home intercom working, but then found I could run that software on my NAS so it became spare and I found another use for it. in typical style an update then broke the PABX software on my NAS but the NUC was already occupied so the intercom (And Wifi management software) are now running on a Raspberry Pi and the NUC is spare as the other job it was doing has gone away!


On topic, I have the NUC running Disto Astro headless and can manage it over Wifi from an ipad or other PC using VNC. It is not perfect yet but functions. time to buy an EQmod cable (Or maybe Bluetooth kit, less cables on my mount) and see if I can get it driving my mount through Stellarium.

[glend]

Maybe this is a dumb question, or I am missing something in this thread, but it doesn't appear to me that these NUC units (or similiar form factors) have screens, keyboards, or a mouse, so how are they used for astro purposes? Call me old fashioned but these are useful attachments, even in the field. How can they be used to drive apps that rely on screen use like BYEOS, etc?

[The_bluester]

In my case it will be driven by VNC either from a tablet or another PC located away from the mount.

When truly "in the field" you would need a small screen keyboard and mouse unless an ad hoc wifi setup still allowed VNC access, not something required in my application at home. The benefit of the NUC or Rpi compared to a laptop would be the ability to run it off 12VDC supply, plus having a small and cheap box out in the dew instead of an expensive laptop.

I can see my eventual obs having this on the mount wifi'd back to a desktop in a warm room, saves hassles of long cables, active USB extenders etc.

[mswhin63]

I currently use a AOpen MP915-B which is a lower performance NUC and I have been working well for the last few month with my set-up.

I suspect the NUC should work better than mine. The one and only problem I have is connecting the Canon on the same USB via a HUB to my Webcam Guide camera.

I have 2 USB connectors but I haven't purposed it as yet.

The only other problem in my situation would be for full observatory I don't think it would be very reliable when I have to use Desktop viewer.

The processor is I think a celeron 1.3G with 1G RAM. Software is EQMOD and PHD2 and CdC sometimes used.

Summary quite happy with it but with the USB issue I can't do planetary, but was never really purposed for that. Would I use it for permanent observatory: only at a pinch using it only if I was strapped for cash (which I am).

The USB issue is the data flow rate cannot handle Webcam and Canon operation at the same time. To resolve it I would connect the APT software first before PHD2. After which it works for image deep-sky. Live-view on the camera is only 1fps instead of 10fps, and the frame-rate of the webcam is dropped by 1/4.

[The_bluester]

The NUC has three USB ports (Plus I think there is an internal one that some people use to run an OS from a USB stick)

My only issue at the minute is that something I have done has broken the connection between the NUC and the 350D. It used to connect no problem but no longer shows up as a mounted drive. I may have to revert a couple of steps to see when I broke it.

the NUC runs at 2.4gig so probably a reasonable processing advantage over the AOpen.

[mswhin63]

I was looking at the numbers for a couple of NUC and I would feel quite comfortable using one of two of the lower processor version in a remote application.

But I am going to experiment with a Raspberry Pi later for camera operations then progress to full operations over time. The new Raspberry Pi B+ is expected to have Windows 10 developer application support when it is released. I have subscribed myself to notifications.

[Bassnut]

I dont know why you would bother with a NUC. Fit PCs are common in astrophotography rigs now, I have one. They are fanless, run off 12v and have 8 USB ports, made for the job. Check here (http://www.fit-pc.com/web/products/specifications/fit-pc4-models-specifications/?model%5B%5D=fit-PC4-CG420-WACB-FM4U&model%5B%5D=fit-PC4-CA125-WB-FM4U)

[glend]

But which one Fred? The choices baffle me.

[The_bluester]

Well, they are more expensive for one thing. In my case it is primarily the fact that I already have the nuc.

[mswhin63]

Power consumption is a main factor in my choice. As long as it functions completely.

[jase]

I'm with Fred on his suggestion for a FITPC. I have two FITPC2 headless systems I purchased back in 2009 and they are both still running flawlessly today. The only maintenace that I needed to perform was replace the CMOS battery once as the system clock would reset upon reboot. They are powered on 24x7 controlling mount, cameras, focusers, etc. I made the transition to an SSD drive for the units in 2012 which has made the unit cooler (and faster). It runs SkyX, MaximDL, FocusMax, ACP w/Scheduler and more without a glitch on Windows 7 (32bit). You don't need grunt to run telescope and imaging control apps. I wouldn't dare attempt to process or calibrate images on this system. Its solely used for data acquisition and does that exceptionally well. When they do eventually die, I will certainly be going the FITPC route again. If you buy one, make sure you get the headless dongle that plugs into the HDMI port so you can run at full screen resolution via teamviewer, radmin or VNC. When you've got a lot of apps running doing different things its nice to see them all on one screen. Product rundown here - http://fit-pc.com/download/General/fit-pc-product-line-overview.pdf

Ultimately any industrialised fanless pc will do the trick. FITPC2 will run 5W under normal load, 8W under high load so is power efficient.

[The_bluester]

They do look like a good bit of kit, but while I have a NUC lying around spare it does not make sense for me to buy one.

What does make sense though is buying one of their headless HDMI dongles. Getting a decent screen resolution to run the NUC headless took a fair bit of messing around creating files in the command line in Linux and downloading dummy drivers, and also effectively disables the display when you do plug it in.

The dongle will be a much neater solution. Money is tight, something for next month. But it did need the higher resolution to get Stellarium to run.

[jase]

HDMI dongle shouldn't break the bank. Sounds like you've already lost considerable time tinkering around.

1080p version - $39
4k version - $63
http://www.fit-pc.com.au/#!appliances/c17lp

or

$35 for the 1080p version from a reseller in Victoria.
http://www.yawarra.com.au/shop/accessories/fit-headless/

[The_bluester]

I will keep them in mind in a couple of weeks. I am in the middle of running a fibre optic link to my workshed (distance and a couple of other factors make getting cat6 run less than desirable) that will soak up some money and time for now.

I am currently trawling ebay for sfc compatible gear, tossing up between upgrading our switch or buying media converters instead.

[oilydog]

Jason, Which model fitpc are you using?

[jase]

Michael, I used a FITPC2 (1.6Mhz, 2GB ram). If I were to purchase another today, I would look at a FITPC3 or 4 with a higher CPU and memory.

I did come across a use case for greater processing power recently when using CCDInspector to provide real time scope collimation adjustment information. It needs to process each individual exposure to report on what adjustments are recommended. Admittedly I was doing this with a 30mp ccd that had raw FITS files 55Mb in size so it took some time. Current camera produces 32Mb files so likely to be less of an issue. Still when you are making such adjustments, timing is of the essence especially when you are standing on the end of a ladder, in the cold, making miniscule tweaks to the secondary mirror.

[Logieberra]

I took a gamble this weekend on an open box Pendo Pad 8. $120.

http://www.pendo.com.au/pendopad/pendopads-windows-8/pendopad-7-intel-quad-core-windows-tablet-pndppw81q716blk/

Running Windows 8.1. Quad core. Many input methods (micro USB, hdmi, micro sd card, BT etc). $25 rebate from MS at the moment. When that arrives, this unit will have cost me $95! I can't begin to tell you how well this thing performs, for the money. It's my new potable setup. Forget Raspberry Pi !

P.s. oh, and they throw in a one-year full subscription to Microsoft Office 365.

[glend]

Out of stock now.

[Logieberra]

Sorry. Meant to add - Target sell them. Plenty on the shelf :)
http://www.target.com.au/p/pendo-pad-windows-8gb-quad-core-tablet/56446876
And I'll definitely be buying this $40 dedicated case w' BT keyboard:
http://www.target.com.au/p/pendo-pad-8-windows-bluetooth-keyboard-case/56510317

[oilydog]

Logan, What software have you installed on the tablet?

[Logieberra]

Everything. Phd2. Nebulosity. Ascom. Drivers etc.

[glend]

How does it perform? Win 8 can be a dog with all the trickery enabled and usually needs to be stripped bwck to run well.

[Logieberra]

So far, well! Are there any downloadable benchmarks to load up graphics / CPU that I can try for you and report back?

A quick comparison- it smashes my 2010 Intel Atom netbook which has 2gb or ram...

Might try SkyX tonight. Image Link is a tough test on the netbook. The old netbook falls down there...

[niko]

try DSLR Controller with the Canon 350D is you're having trouble with Backyard EOS - used to work like a dream for me.

cheers

niko

[The_bluester]

They list the 350D as non compatible though. Which is a pity, I would happily go out and get an android device if it could work.

The main issue I face with the current setup is focus, without live view it is much tougher. I am looking at getting a Bahtinov mask to make it a bit easier.

Primarily I am trying to keep my forays into AP at the ver much cheaper end of the spectrum! A later camera would probably have been easier but not as cheap obviously.

[troypiggo]

Jase/Fred - How do those little Fit PCs go with plate solving? Would be running Sequence Generator Pro with local Astronomy.net, AstroTorilla type stuff.

Logan - how about those Pendo pads running the above?

[Logieberra]

In my limited experience, it's Image Linking (plate solving) in SkyX that really tests my hardware, drawing on 4gigs on UCAC4 star data and the likes. That test is coming...

[jase]

Without issue Troy. That has at least been my experience. I can't specifically talk to Sequence Generator Pro but I use ACP that comes with Pinpoint. I've always used Pinpoint. Its the most efficient and fastest plate solving engine available in my opinion. I've used pinpoint with GSC, USNO-A2.0 and USNO UCAC4 catalogs with the FITPC and its worked flawlessly. Each image downloaded is platesolved before data acquisition continues. Takes approximately 8-10 seconds to solve. If your pointing is way off and the plate solve algorithm needs to search a larger area, it can take some time (as with any PC) but then I would probably suggest you fix your pointing in the first place!

I've used All Sky Plate solving a couple of times as Pinpoint 6 now has this built in. It is based on John Winfield's SkySolve (http://winfij.com/development/SkySolve/index.html) and uses Astrometry.net. The original version of SkySolve required a local reference database which requires significant grunt to compute. Using Astrometry.net results in not needing the reference database.

Based on the software you've listed, I feel certain FITPC will handle demand of this software with ease.

[troypiggo]

Cool. Thanks for the response.