New Televue Eyepieces - DeLite

[barx1963]

TV have announced the new DeLite range of EPs. Interesting!
Lightweight, all 1.25", 62deg AFOV, and 20mm eye relief.

Being launched at NEAF (Scott, make sure you go have a look!) and available later this year.
http://televue.com/engine/TV3b_page.asp?id=238&Tab=_back#.VTGs0fmUeSo

Malcolm

[wavelandscott]

I am putting them on my list...I am sure they will be nice. Not sure of their purpose...

[Kunama]

A Radian by any other name :question:

[MortonH]

Or like the Pentax XF.

[FlashDrive]

That's what I thought to ..... a Radian in disguise ....

Col....

[Allan]

At last, a TeleVue eyepiece I don't need to buy.

[PlanetMan]

I knew it was only a matter of time before this was going to happen and Televue would bring back the Radians under a different name.

As good as the Delos are there various attributes where the old Radians are actually better - size,cost, on axis etc

[MortonH]

The Radians lagged behind Pentax on light throughput. With the Delos line Tele Vue caught up in that respect. Assuming the Delos technology is being used in the Delite range they should be a good step up from the Radians.

I'm quite happy with a 62º AFOV so these seem quite attractive.

However, Bintel has them listed for pre-order with a price of $379 which puts me off a bit (and is double the price of a used Radian).

[FlashDrive]

:eyepop:... Bintel Price $379.00 .... I'll stick to my Vixen LVW's @ $299.00.
TeleVue products are getting ' way out of hand ' in $$ value since the AU$ dropped in recent times.

eg: 24mm Panoptic now retails at ~ $450.00 ea + Postage. ( I remember when they were $329.00 ea.... not that long ago either )

Col.....

[MortonH]

Yeah, I'll be waiting a year or two until some used ones become available. Or at least till they're on sale.

[astroron]

Can't seem to find any space to accommodate any of those eyepieces as my eyepieces start at Nagler 3.5, 6mm radian,9mm nagler 13mm Nagler 17 mm nagler 21mm plossl 30mm Celestron ultima and a University optics 55mm .
I would like something in between the 21mm and the 30mm but as I am not a low magnification observer am not that bothered at the moment.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Allan]

Check the eye watering price of a 21 Ethos now at BinTel, $1209.

[FlashDrive]

..... for an extra $31.00 , you can buy a Takahashi FS60CB OTA.

Col....

[Allan]

That's pretty much what I was thinking.

[Profiler]

And now for the really bad news - all economic forecasts apparently predict the AUD$ to continue going down - so these prices are here to stay and will most likely continue to rise.:shrug:

[Profiler]

Perhaps someone more adept on IT than me can find the original post by "ausastronomer" (John Bambury) who undertook a very thorough review of the Radian alongside a whole bunch of other eyepieces including the Pentax XW - the results were surprising and his conclusion was that the XW was overall only better by a slim margin. On some other individual characteristics the Radian was better.

Bottom line - he considered the Radian to be no slouch and an excellent EP well worth having.

[Allan]

Another good comparison was done by Alvin Huey in the US. He hunts the faintest of the faint fuzzies and for him light transmission is the primary requirement in an eye piece. He ranked his ZAO's at the top of his list followed by Delos, Ethos then XW's. I was impressed that he could see a difference between the Delos and Ethos on light transmission.

[Kunama]

How to spend $1209????

Vixen LVW5mm + 8mm + 13mm + 17mm = $1100 that left me $109 which bought me 2 bottles of Penfolds Bin407 and still had a bus fare home.

4x 65ºAFOV = 260º of comfortable, parfocal, relatively affordable viewing.

I guess I won't be buying any more Televues. Paying $379 for an eyepiece that will effective imitate the LVW doesn't make much sense just because it has green writing and is made in Taiwan.

[Profiler]

My thoughts as well - at this level I am often hard pressed to see differences as essentially they are all excellent eyepieces - or maybe I am simply half blind:rofl:

[MortonH]

Found three threads where John compares Radians to XW and XF.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=97793

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=96040

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=117304


You're right, the Radians are good and worth having. He comments that the 6mm Radian has better off-axis performance than the 6mm Delos on double stars, etc. I didn't see any comments on performance on faint objects.

I also noted his comment about the 8mm Radian vs the XF 8.5mm "the 8.5mm Pentax XF outperforms it by a small margin in every single optical performance criteria".


There's also a detailed comparison of the XF12mm and 12mm Radian on CloudyNights. The Radian was notably less effective than the XF on faint galaxies.

http://www.cloudynights.com/page/articles/cat/user-reviews/eyepieces/televue-eyepieces/12mm-radian-and-12mm-pentax-xf-r1393


But the upshot seems to be that phrases like "small margin" and "slight difference" seem to crop up regularly in these comparisons.

Going back to my earlier comment on price, the DeLite eyepieces will cost double the value of a used Radian, but certainly won't have double the performance.

[Profiler]

A big problem with many of these shot-outs is that they are unbalanced comparisons in the sense of comparing apples with oranges. For example when I mentally picture a ZAO and a 13MM Ethos I am looking at one EP which is almost 10x the size of the other. The ZAO wins on portability but then the ethos gives 100 fov so how do we fairly matriculate the 2:P

[Kunama]

I seriously doubt you will be able to detect any difference in the view between the two..... but it is a very clever thing for Televue to do, they have seen that the removal of the Radian from their lineup left a lot of people looking elsewhere and looks like they have fixed the only complaint people have about the Radians, that is, the way the eyecup operates.

Then they release the information on their site to get the forums talking, then remove the information to keep people guessing ........ no doubt they will sell like hotcakes but they really do seem to be a Radian in disguise.

[wavelandscott]

I had a brief chance at NEAF to look through the new DeLite eyepieces both singularly and in a binoviewer.

While indoors and moving through a line of people also interested in looking did not give me much time but my first impression was positive.

Lots of eye relief and very easy to look through. I just walked right up and looked...it was that easy. View of an indoor target was solid and everything you have come to expect from Televue. Compared to the Ethos and Delos these seem small and light...I felt they worked well in the binoviewer and suspect where weight is an issue these will work well.

I do not know if I have need for any in my case but they appeared to me to be well executed and I found them real easy to look through.

[Profiler]

Have you ever used a Radian as it would be good to hear some comparison between the 2

[UniPol]

People have short memories as we all know Col, just look at the Bintel prices published in a S & S mag circa 2003.

"DeLite" sounds like the name of a well known yoghurt to me by the way, they should have called it Delos Jr or even Radian MkIII :lol:

[Profiler]

I think most here have the same underlying sentiment - possibly the better title should be Radian Mk III

Or - keeping in step with Televue labels (such as Naglers)

Radian TYPE III (in short Rad T3):lol:

[wavelandscott]

I have only looked through a Radian once or twice...I can not offer any meaningful comments on comparisons between them and the new DeLites...Sorry

[FlashDrive]

Thanks Steve......

" People have short memories as we all know Col, just look at the Bintel prices published in a S & S mag circa 2003. "

WOW ....makes today's prices look cheap ... well beyond my budget back then .....

When the AU Dollar drops, it certainly has an effect on our ' spending ' ... I for one ' resist ' opening my wallet, as previously I didn't hesitate to do so.

Col.....

[barx1963]

Personally, I think kudos to TV for recognising there was a market. The price at Bintel means that the only premium EP close to the $379 they are talking about is the 19mm Pan at $369 but that only has 13mm ER!
I am an unashamed TV fan and simply have loved all my TVs I have owned over the years.

Malcolm

[FlashDrive]

The new De-Lites are on sale at Agena Astro
Agena is advertising them for sale on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tele-Vue-1-25-DeLite-Eyepiece-18-2mm-/111724736326?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a03502f46

Col...

[Steffen]

And I was so sure that TV's next eyepiece line would have 180º AFOV...

[MortonH]

You need three of them for that.

[MortonH]

One of the first buyers in the US has actually used the 7mm:

http://www.cloudynights.com/topic/505589-tv-delite-transmission-lenses-lens-groups/#entry6699605

Quoted from the above link:

"My new 7mm Delite is definitely an upgrade from the Radian series optically and functionally. The Delos-style eyecups are much better than the old click stops of the Radians. The optics are pretty impressive right to the edge (actually a stunning sharp clean edge) and the on axis sharpness, contrast and clarity appeared slightly better than my 7mm BGO on the Moon. I was actually quite impressed with the lunar images of the new 7mm DeLite against my BGO 7mm. On Saturn it was too close to call last night, the light scatter and transmission appeared identical while detecting Saturn’s moons, but the much larger field of view of the DeLite is very appealing.

It was only one 3 hour observing session with my AP155EDT, so I’m looking forward to more time to enjoy this 7mm DeLite. My initial impressions are quite good and I plan to purchase any DeLites available <10mm focal lengths. I would even replace my current Radians with DeLites if their focal lengths become available. The DeLites are indeed a worthy upgrade both optically and functionally.

My old 7mm T1 Nagler is officially retired from filling the gap in my Radian eyepiece set."

[WilliamPaolini]

While they certainly look similar to the Radians from outward appearance, having used both the last thing I found them to be was a Radian in disguise! Radians had a host of flaws IMO (finicky eye positioning, lots of lateral color, disfunctional eyeguard mechanism, overly heavy, poor transmission on the early ones, some felt a bit of a warmer tone, only so-so on planetary to my eye). By contrast the DeLites have none of the Radian's shortcomings. Quite an engaging eyepiece to use surprisingly with just a 62 degree AFOV. In my field usage I compared them to my XWs and found they met or exceeded them across all my tests. Quite surprising.

[PlanetMan]

Can't comment on the DeLite perse as I haven't look through one but having extensively used Radians and virtually every current eyepiece Televue make in a 7mm FL or close to it I can accept that the newer designs of Televue are certainly better than older designs. It would be pretty poor show if they didn't.

With these points in mind and putting aside the variables of AFOV and ER I haven't seen any Televue eyepiece which wasn't easily beaten in optical performance by some Japanese made simple ortho's which can be bought for about 25% the cost of most Televue eyepieces:thumbsup:

IMHO extensive marketing is the key factor to the Televue production formula - look at every astronomy magazine who perpetually does all the full page advertising. I can't recall the last time I saw an advert for KK - ironically I am also even surprised when I come across ads for Takahashi

[dreamstation]

Forgive the ignorant newbie here, but can you please link me to these Japanese made eyepieces that easily outperform Televue for a quarter of the price? I'm not doubting your claims at all but if these eye pieces were really that impressive, why do so many people (even dedicated people on this board) still go down the Televue route?

I've only been here for a little over a month but I can't help but think you have some sort of vendetta against Televue as just about every post of yours that I've read has been running them down! :confused2:

[MortonH]

To many/most people ER and AFOV form part of the optical performance. An ortho with tiny field and eye relief is no use to me since I like simple alt az undriven mounts.

[dreamstation]

Having two unguided 10" dobs I totally agree. That's why I went down the Delos route as I wanted a comfortable middle ground between ER and AFOV.

I'd love an eyepiece range with 20mm ER and 72+ AFOV for a quarter of the price of the Delos, though.

[Profiler]

If this helps you can scroll to the bottom of this link for KK orthos from a very nice Australian vendor.

http://www.astronomy-electronics-centre.com.au/prices_reduced.htm

I am not trying to promote any brand but lately I have developed a fondness for the Takahashi LE eyepieces. They are not exactly cheap but in my view at least they sort of give the best of both worlds with eye-relief and optical clarity akin to a top shelf ortho.

When you want a larger field of view with them simply switch to the 18mm or 30mm LE which are both fantastic and give that widefield experiece with plenty of eye-relief.

Let me stress this is my two cents worth:D

[Profiler]

I'd love an eyepiece range with 20mm ER and 72+ AFOV for a quarter of the price of the Delos, though.[/QUOTE]

Try and find yourself a second-hand Baader Hyperion - all things considered they really aren't too shabby an eyepiece.

You have to keep in mind astronomy equipment is a game of diminishing returns. The more you spend does 'tend' to correlate with improved performance. However, the ratio of improvement drastically decreases as you progress.

[Profiler]

Hi Morton

I just discovered these myself and am really impressed with them - various manufacturers (Vixen was first) have made their standard AZ mounts and then an after market gadget from JMI called 'train and track' is a set of small motors which when attached to the mount and via simple movements will learn to follow a target. So you get the quasi tracking of a computerised mount without the hassles.

So - no goto but it will learn to track objects via you simply moving the mount yourself and thus mimic your movements when following a target. They are small and portable and gives your AZ mount and whole new lease on life

[MortonH]

Hi,

Yes, I've seen them, and they can be fitted to my mount, but then I need a power supply and the "simplicity" of the mount is lost. Plus it requires extra cash! :eyepop:

I've seen a number of reviews saying that Pentax XW and Tele Vue Delos give performance that is close to orthos but with extra field of view and comfort, and I think that's why people pay the big money for those brands, not because of glitzy magazine ads. :)

[Profiler]

Ironically, I don't have any orthos myself however I have had Delos and do have both Pentax XW and Takahashi LE eyepieces. There is strong debate over Delos v XW and from my experience/eyes I found the XW still to be better.

Now, in side by side comparison between the 5mm XW and Takahashi 5mm LE - The XW does indeed have 'more' eyerelief and a larger field of view.

I found the Takahashi 5mm LE still quite comfortable with about 12mm of ER and only has about 52 fov. However, as far as sharpness, lateral colour etc etc and generally being able to perceive more - it is discernably the better EP:hi:

[PlanetMan]

No problem - point taken - but as I clearly stated - excluding ER and AFOV - otherwise you are engaging in an apples v oranges analysis.

If you need ER and more AFOV then the best eyepiece in existence including value for money has to be IMHO the Pentax XF 8.5mm

[MortonH]

No argument from me on the XF!

[Camelopardalis]

The 12mm XF works quite well in an SCT too ;)

[WilliamPaolini]

I certainly have no loyalty to Tele Vue...heck, I only have one Tele Vue product in my inventory, a 2x Barlow! I do agree that there are Japanese and other sources that produce eyepieces as good and even better in some respects. My eye and observing needs decided that the Pentax XWs were best overall over Delos, Ethos, Radian, Panoptic, Nagler. But the XWs are a far cry from being 1/4 the price of the Tele Vues :lol: If you can find me something that performs as well as a Pentax XW, that is Japanese made, comes in a full range of focal lengths, has the same operating parameters of ER and AFOV, similar robust construction, optically as precise, and costs street only $80 or so please let me know!

And also for many of us, it is more than just the on-axis image. So AFOV is important, as is eye relief, as is lateral color, off-axis astigmatism, rectilinear distortions, edge of field brightening, overall background blackness, exit pupil behavior (i.e., blackouts, kidney bean, overall comfort), stray light suppression, contrast, physical housing construction robustness, size, weight, ability to handle fast focal ratios, etc. So many many factors that each of us weight differently. And one really can't say a 40 degree eyepiece is the same as a 70 degree eyepiece, or if one wants more TFOV simply use a longer focal length. These are not valid as the exit pupil changes and how well the target is portrayed then changes. So in all fairness, if one is comparing an 82 degree product, then need to stay at or near the same AFOV. And if one is comparing a 20mm ER product, they need to stay apples-to-apples and only assess it against other similar long eye relief products.

Anyway, my 2 cents ;)

[MortonH]

Bill,

Thanks to the exchange rate your 2 cents are worth 3 cents here. :P

[Profiler]

I think it was pretty clearly stated that folks need to be attentive in not going off the rails with their reasoning/explanations and thus 'not' fall prey to 'apples v oranges' comparisons.

The 1/4 the price statement is in reference to good quality orthos NOT Pentax XWs

The moment you start introducing other factors of ER and AFOV you are going beyond what was represented and stated as the bnefit of the orthos

[Profiler]

Yep - I have to agree - other than ER and AFOV I tend to think the simple ortho can outperform most Televue eyepieces on all the attributes you mention and they cost a quarter of the price.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't even dream of making any statement concerning what are the supposed "preferences" of the majority of astronomers:thumbsup:

[N1]

I own nothing that tracks or guides. I used to think my Naglers (the first EPs I owned) were virtually essential for dobbing and other modes of altazzing and med-high powers, until I decided to actually take note of how often I observe objects outside of the field that, say, a plossl would show. The answer was: approximately never. Instead, I found myself centering the target much more often than the Nags would require. My ortho and plossl collection has been growing ever since.

[PlanetMan]

Exactly

Folks - please don't misunderstand me - Televue has given us that widefield experience and options for people who can't tolerate crushing their eyeball

However, putting those design innovations aside a good quality classic such as ortho's and plossls still pack a huge wallop:D

[FlashDrive]

I whole heartily agree ... I have some very nice early Japanese smooth sided plossl's which I use quite a lot.

I particularly like this one.

Nice and clean rare Vintage Eyepiece Celestron Blacktop 45mm Plossl 1 ¼‘‘ Multi-coated, red lettering, Circle V (Made in Japan by Vixen)

Col.

[Profiler]

Good stuff Colin:thumbsup:

Ironically, inspired by this dialogue last night I tried out an old genuine Takahashi .96 4mm orthoscopic (it took me two weeks to get an adapter for it)

I put it into my refractor last night which was a particularly clear and cold night. Pointed the scope at Saturn and almost fell out of my chair:lol:

Probably one of the best views with a 'small' refractor I have ever seen:eyepop:

The best analogy I can give from life experience was the first time I looked at a full HD television.

[dreamstation]

I don't doubt the visual qualities of an ortho or a plossl eye piece, but you already answered in your second last sentence why I prefer a wider field in an eye piece - less centering of the target. And the eye relief is usually horrible in an ortho or a plossl.

[PlanetMan]

I think "horrible" is a strong word - certainly some eyepieces have more than others. Hence the subjective preferences to astronomy

Astronomy equipment is all about compromises - in this case it is a matter of trading comfort for optical clarity

[FlashDrive]

I once heard a description of looking thru' an ortho ... was like looking down a ' drain pipe ' :lol:

I know what they are referring to ... narrow fov ... :P

Who cares ... I for one don't mind at all. :thumbsup:

Col.

[dreamstation]

Agreed. One that I am happy to make :thumbsup:

[Profiler]

Which if I am not mistaken essentially appears to bring us full circle in that setting aside the parameters of ER and AFOV most good quality ortho's will optically outperform most Televue eyepieces and at approximately a quarter of the price:)

[MortonH]

Ah, but orthos have no majesty factor. :lol:

[PlanetMan]

That is indeed true!

Instead, they have the happy wallet factor:lol:

[MortonH]

Nice one.

And wallet trumps majesty for me at the moment!

[WilliamPaolini]

A well executed Abbe design is a beautiful thing to behold IMO. Unfortunately, those really well executed ones, like the 6mm ZAO-II I have, it is the other way around and the TVs cost less than it :lol:

[PlanetMan]

It's odd you make this claim when you previously indicated you don't have TV eps

You also previously got your wires crossed about the costs making comparisons with XWs

Now you are introducing new variables with top shelf ZAOs

When you strip everything away you seem very determined to promote Televue eyepieces even though you previously claimed to have no vested interest.:question:

[MortonH]

Bill just knows rather a lot about eyepieces.

http://www.amazon.com/Choosing-Astronomical-Eyepieces-Practical-Astronomy/dp/1461477220

[rodsmith]

:P..............:lol:

[N1]

Wow.
OK, I "choose" the 5mm XO shown on the cover.
Where can I order it from?
:jump2:

[PlanetMan]

Books are not subject to independent peer-review akin to scientific journals

The key criteria to book publication is the publishers confidence in achieving sales to at least cover their costs - sorry that is the unpleasant reality otherwise they don't stay in business.

Many people know a lot about eyepieces - whether we have the time or inclination to write a book is a separate issue.

Conversely, simply because one writes a book does not automatically denote expertise and anyone familiar with voire dire in the testing of expert witnesses will understand this.

[Profiler]

[QUOTE=PlanetMan;1192635]Books are not subject to independent peer-review akin to scientific journals

The key criteria to book publication is the publishers confidence in achieving sales to at least cover their costs - sorry that is the unpleasant reality otherwise they don't stay in business.


Eeehhnn:sadeyes:

I think I am suffering from PTSD

I can't even remember how many book proposals I have had rejected from publishers over the years. I slowly learnt the important ingredient to securing a contract was being able to state that the book 'once published' would be a mandatory prescribed text for students doing a course:P

[MortonH]

True. Linking to the book was my clumsy attempt to convey the high standing Bill has on Cloudy Nights, where he is one of the go-to guys on eyepiece questions.

Anyway, he has started a new thread on his first light review of all three DeLites and they sound very good (if expensive :() with plenty of references to Tak LE and Abbes. :)

[FlashDrive]

Yes ...I have read the review ... he certainly puts them ' up there ' with the premium counterparts.
It's nice to here a favorable report on a new line of eyepieces from someone with such experience... over 45years in the hobby.

Not knocking them, but for the money they ask here in AU ...I myself would go down the TAK LE road .... and still have change.

Col. :D

[MortonH]

I read a few reviews of the LE eyepieces last night and certainly wouldn't mind trying the 7.5mm - anyone want to lend me one? :P

Mind you, I read that the 5mm and 7mm LE's have/had flaring issues on the Moon, which is unacceptable at that price. Hopefully it's been addressed in current production models?

[dreamstation]

Not wrong. I want to get a 10mm and 14mm Delos but :eyepop:at their prices. Have been keeping an eye on the classifieds so hopefully something comes up soon. There's a 10mm Pentax that's just been listed but I really want the Delos. What to do! :confused2:

[MortonH]

There's not much difference between Delos and XW, although above 10mm the XWs show field curvature in a lot of scopes whereas the Delos don't.

I had the Pentax XW 10mm and it's an excellent eyepiece. I'm sure you'd be happy with it.

[Profiler]

Again - If I am not mistaken - I think we have all come full circle once again on the original point about orthos v Televues divided by their relative price:rofl:

[Profiler]

The 5mm LE is fast becoming one of my favourite eyepieces for planetary observing - I think some regard it (and/or the 7.5) as the best in the entire range provided they are suitable to the focal length of your OTA

I can't say I have noticed any "flaring" in my 5mm but I suspect there are lots of factors that could potentially cause this perception in any eyepiece

I am not trying to beat up bussiness for Claude (although he is a very nice guy) but in case anyone is interested or don't already know - he does have the LE's on special right now - essentially he is selling them for the same price in AUD as what they sell overseas in USD:thumbsup: - and he is doing this despite the drop in the value of the AUD

[WilliamPaolini]

I had the 5 and 7.5 LE many years ago and it was nearly impossible to do any lunar observing with them as a large splotch of flare would wash over the FOV and take away all the contrast. Some folks corrected this by making a gasket with an 8mm hole in it and placed that over the field lens. But I recently reacquired the LEs and my current 5 and 7.5 still flare, but it is very minor and of course only on the Moon. Minor enough to not matter. So IMO, given the difference between my old ones and the current ones, I presume Tak addressed this issue at some point. So I guess luck of the draw which you get if you buy used.

[Profiler]

No arguments from me:lol:

Like I said in my post on the other DeLite thread wherein I disagree with Wavytones

I hope everyone takes on board all these comments and start buying Televue DeLites and in the process decide to sell their old eyepieces - especially Takahashi LE and Orthoscopic eyepieces.:thumbsup:

[Don Pensack]

First serious review of all 3 focal lengths by Bill Paolini:
http://astronomyconnect.com/forums/articles/tele-vue-delite-eyepieces-first-light-review.1

These may become "classic" binoviewer eyepieces. About half of my customers have bought pairs, which surprised me a lot.

The DeLites are derived from the Delos, which, in turn, were derived from the Ethos. Color is neutral and spot size is smaller than Plossls or Abbe orthos. When shorter focal lengths come out, these will be premium planetary eyepieces. Of course, for focal lengths exceeding 1500mm, the 7mm would be a reasonable planetary eyepiece.

Too bad about the exchange rate.

[MortonH]

We need Tele Vue to have one of their sales.

[WilliamPaolini]

Wow. In shock at the prices in Australia!

Delite - $379
Tak LE - $265-$285
Vixen SLV - $169
Hyperion - $210
UWAN - $245
LVW - $295
ES82 - $180-300
ES68 - $150+
ES100 - 300-400

FWIW, I would never pay that much for most of them, certainly not $285 for an LE!! I buy those used for around $130-150. And the DeLite there is priced in same category as the ES 100!!!!!!

You are right...time for a TV sale there!

[Profiler]

You seem somewhat adamant with the disapproval of the little old Takahashi LE. Second hand they can be purchased here also for about $150:)