RORO shed

[The_bluester]

OK, it is time to get ahead of myself!

I have been working on the idea of a RORO shed for some time and not really expecting to get the OK from my wife, but she surprised me recently by more or less asking why I had not started yet!

I plan to make space for at least two scopes on piers, my own CPC925 mounted on a wedge (Which I think I will design and construct myself as I reckon I can do cheaper and better than the Celestron one for a fixed mount) and a mates AP rig, think in terms of about 900mm FL refractor, currently used on a tripod when he comes out to my place to escape LP from Melbourne.

What would be the minimum width of shed people would consider (Length is another issue completely, more on that later) to mount the refractor in the middle, point it at the horizon (Which won't be visible) and allow space for set up/working on it etc. Basically, how much "Walking around" space outside the envelope the scope will occupy would you want to have in an ideal world?

The second question would be wall height, how low to the horizon would you consider imaging? I am hoping to have the walls high enough to block stray light from car headlights as we are on a bend in a road and headlights sweep our place from side to side all the time. I was also thinking that matte black paint on the inside would be a good idea to help cut that problem even further, at least for the top half of the walls. Ideal wall height would allow a normal door to be used under the roll off roof without bumping your head!

My wife also made the suggestion of a section of the shed partitioned off from the scopes and weather protected (The length issue) to allow for a couple of bunks for those long imaging sessions! (I think she just wants us to stay out there and stop bumping around the house at 3AM looking for whiskey) If I were to add a bunkhouse, is there value in cable extensions so that laptops for imaging could be put in there? I can see an obvious benefit in reduction of stray light when capturing images if laptop screens were out of the way with walls between them and lense, but does it matter?

Piers, I plan a concrete floor in this for cleanliness, is there real value for imaging if the pier is isolated form the shed floor? I have a 12" post hole auger on a tractor which I can sink to about 800mm to put in a footing for a pier, am I best off to carry this 12" above the ground a little (Thinking of stubbed toes here) and use the rubber isolator/expansion strips they use nowadays in concreting to prevent contact between the floor slab and pier base? Visually I can not see it making any real difference, but photographically? I would hate for us to have to spend the night making sure to sit still to keep vibrations at bay.

This could end up more comfy than my house, but I will only get one shot at this, so any other suggestions for an ambit claim for the "Features"?

This is also going to be a project of quite some time in the making, probably starting with piers and then a slab and finally a shed, but if I am going to move to that last stage and build a shed over it all then I need to get the dimensions right from the beginning.

[traveller]

Paul,
I have an e-book called Building a ROR Observatory: A complete guide for design and construction, by John Hicks.
It's 5 MB pdf file, so happy to share it with you.
PM me with your email address and I will send one through.
Cheers,
Bo

[The_bluester]

Have sent you a PM.

Now, anyone else have any suggestions while I write my ambit claim? Billiard table?

I have to bear in mind that if this ends up bigger than my existing shed (28 feet by 72 feet) I am going to be in some trouble.

[The_bluester]

On to another question, if you were going to make your own wedge, out of alloy for preference, how thick would you make the support plates to mount the wedge to the pier and scope to the wedge? I was thinking about 12mm or so

I am thinking of a fairly simple design made up of two plates, a base plate to mount to the top plate of the pier, which has three slotted holes to allow mounting on the pier (Radially slotted to allow the azimuth adjustment to be fine tweaked) which will have two mounting ears sticking up on what will be the southern edge, with holes drilled for altitude bolts (I am seeing NC milling in the future)

The second plate will have matching ears milled into the bottom face, spaced to be an almost interference fit between the other two. This will allow nyloc nuts on stainless bolts to lock the altitude. The shank diameter of the bolts needs to be a tap in fit in the altitude "Ears" to reduce play when setting it up. Some fine thread on 12mm or thicker shaft to make an altitude adjuster would be the ticket too.

Alt may need an elongated radial hole in a locking bar each side to allow for a small amount of adjustment in order to lock it up dead tight? (Taking inspiration from the side plates on the Celestron wedge) The intent would be for this to be an equivalent to the Celestron HD Pro wedge but it does not need the adjustment range of the genuine one as it would be purpose built for my location and only need a couple of degrees adjustment in any direction in case of designer/constructor (Me) error.

Setting the altitude would be fairly easy with a threaded rod and I reckon I would steal the adjustment method from and old points ignition system for the azimuth, with a slot for the end of a screwdriver to gently lever it around combined with a crentral locating pin so you drive it around in azimuth rather than push it sideways.

Has anyone built their own before?

[ChrisM]

Paul,

After making a wooden prototype first, I used aluminium plate to make a fixed angle (38 deg) wedge for an 8" Meade. The base was 19 mm, the angled plate 10 mm and the gussets were 12 mm. It was very stiff and served well for visual observing for a few years; it's not used any more so I guess that I should unload it. Some pictures attached, plus a link to my construction thread, where the wedge can be seen with the LX90 attached in post #12 http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=36222

The base is about 325 mm square, and the angled plate is about 250W x 270H - comfortably fitting the 8" SCT at the time.

Cheers, Chris

[The_bluester]

I suppose I could do the same. Fine tweaking of angles would be a problem for photography though.

I am really torn between just handing over the cash for the celestron HD pro wedge or designing and building my own at probably 70% of the cost. I am not sure the work is justified by the likely saving.

[Spookyer]

I was planning on a 2.5 x2.5 m area for the scope and then a 1m by 2.5m area under cover for electronics etc. I would like something bigger however if you go over 10sqm where I live you have to go through building approval processes.

[The_bluester]

Due to the overlay our friendly council put over things (as far as I can see, to claw back control they lost when the state planning scheme was changed some years back) we will need a planning permit regardless, so I may as well go large!

[glend]

Don't tell them. If it is small it should not matter. Council inspectors don't go door to door looking for violations. Unless you get a neighbor complaining they will never know. If you ever move, and the land plan is part of the sale documentation you could simply remove it (if its small). There is far too much of letting the 'authorities' determine what we can and can't do - be a rebel.

[The_bluester]

Actually, councils including ours have become known as avid users of nearmap which unfortunately includes hi res images of our place so changes stand out like the proverbial bits of a dog. The only way I may get away with it would be if I can make it a definable temporary structure. But even those they try to give people a hard time about.

[rogerg]

The open portion of my observatory is 3m x 3m, with a PME and 12" SCT in the middle of that area. I've often given thought to adding a second telescope of similar size and have come to the conclusion I would want the space to be 3m x 5m, perhaps 3m x 6m if money and space were not an issue.



My walls are 2.0m high. That height is generally good. I can image quite low to the horizon on three sides (guess 10 degrees most directions - ignoring trees etc!). I have a pitched roof (hence the scope is not entirely below the 2m height of the walls). The only problem is to one side where the pitch of my roof is and obstructs the north more than the other walls do. I don't have black walls, they are the standard colourbond under-side colour. I don't have a problem with stray light or such even with lights on, having the telescope optical path fully sealed and due shield on.

My door is a good height for me (me being 1.78m tall) but taller visitors need to be warned. There's also horizontal support beams inside the enclosed half of my observatory which cross at about 1.9m height so taller visitors require warning!. Problem with making it all higher is increasing the wall height. I can think of ways to get around this now - higher enclosed half than open half with taller "skirts" coming down from the rolling roof).



I wouldn't be without the enclosed half of my observatory. Warm, comfortable, dust free, dew free, nicely set up, a space to spend time. Cable ducting from piers to nearest wall of observatory and then along walls to enclosed portion is essential. I used 90mm storm-water pipe under the concrete slab but even that is getting maxed out with cables now and I would've preferred two, one for power and one for data.



My pier is steel, embedded in about a cubic metre of concrete and seperated from the rest of the concrete pad by rubber expansion foam. I think having it separated from the rest of the slab does help reduce vibrations. Amount of concrete is up to you or some engineer to guestimate I guess :) I'd recommend concrete pier rather than steel. I did have issues with vibration from my pier but filling it with sand negates that, but may as well be concrete I think. Most vibrations I've experienced come from wind which ripples over the walls.



Nice sound system (consider wire ducting), consider wire ducting for ventilation fan(s) to cool down after a hot day or such (I have one in my enclosed half). I have insulated the enclosed half of mine which makes it comfortable but it holds way too much heat in summer. Definitely don't insulate your open half if you have a climate like Perth, except the roof with thin reflective insulation. Condensation inside the open half can be a problem during winter when it's closed up, so consdier options for mitigating this so you don't have it dripping on equipment (the thin insulation on the roof would probably do it). Don't foreget to plan for remote operaiton, with ducted network cables, ducting to put weather station on top of the roof, etc.



These things are iterative and take time to progress. I've had mine for about 14 years now and it took a good 10 years to build it up to where it is now, comfortable and easy to use.

See more about my obs: http://rogergroom.com/astronomy-resources/my-astronomy-and-photographic-equipment/my-observatory/

[The_bluester]

First up, thanks for a long and thought out reply.

Fairly much all things I had thought of myself, though I had not thought about putting a sound system out there. I do have an old AVR that could be pressed into service. With a wifi link back to the house it could even be used with a lean XBMC box to source the music off our server (All our media is on a NAS) or even cheesy movies that don't get the nod in the house! If we are imaging with laptops etc running then our dark adaptation is history anyway, we might as well watch bad scifi.

Good to see that I am not too far off in my thinking, though I possibly would not have allowed enough by way of cabling space which is ironic as I work in the comms industry, I might get a bit creative there and fit multiple 32mm conduits in the piers (multiple smaller ones to preserve the integrity, plus power cables could be run separate to data) and take them to a comms pit in the floor which can have a P100 conduit into the warm room to allow for plenty of cable space.

I was actually thinking of solar panels to run some ventilation fans to keep heat at bay in the summer and condensation in the winter and was thinking I would fully line the "Work" room. I Have to be careful now, my wife has realised that if I am at home but not in the house she sleeps badly. Best not to mention bunks!

Given my headlight sweep issue I am not too sure if I should go for lower walls and some temporary screening outside while appropriate height trees I will plant around it grow out to block light, or higher walls and not worry too much about the greenery. Higher walls could help with wind too but so would trees. Given some knowledge of windbreak lines (Largely lost in the fire unfortunately) multiple rows of semi wind permeable trees could be a real help where a single line of heavy trees actually creates turbulence, as might high walls.

I was also thinking to paint yellow circles around each pier, figure out the maximum envelope size of the mounted scopes and add half a mater. That way it should be visible in the dark and you can be happy that if you don't set foot in the circles as you walk past, you wont bump into anything.

[rustigsmed]

or ... make it a childrens cubby house. attach a slide or something. just happen to store your telescope in there as well.

[The_bluester]

I wish.

Anyway, some good ideas popping up. Just need to incorporate them from the beginning. Things like conduits are much harder to do later.

[Andy01]

Maybe allow room for a beer fridge, perhaps under a bench with a spare monitor on top to plug into the laptop. If not bunks then maybe a stretcher /sleeping bag, and possibly install some form of heating to avoid relying on the polar suits in winter!

[The_bluester]

You just want everything, heating and all!

[The_bluester]

Have been thinking about the design of a polar wedge for my CPC 925. Trying to functionally copy the Celestron wedge is over designing it. Better to take some inspiration from the NEQ/other type generic GEM.

What I need is a small length of alloy turning stock, probably no more than 100mm (the base) into one end of which a groove can be turned about 10mm from the end, that allows for clamps to hold it down on a pier and if in a suitable round hole in a baseplate, also for the azimuth adjustment. The top of the alloy round stock would need suitable flats milled on opposing sides and two holes drilled side to side between the flats. One for a pivot bolt, one for an adjustment locking bolt.

Mounted via the holes would be a thick alloy plate on which the scope is bolted using the original Celestron points in the same way as on a celestron wedge. Underneath the plate, plate "ears" would need to be fitted to mount to the base.

Polar alignment would be fiddly, but it would only have to be done once. I will try to come up with a sketch in the next couple of days so people who have done similar can critique.

[traveller]

Sounds like things are coming together Paul.
Have you thought of using old disc brakes off a car to make the wedge, might be easier and already pre-mahcined.
RE the permit thing, it's a good thing you are following the regulation PITA as they may be. Just in case things happen (e.g. fire) and insurance may refuse coverage because the building was constructed without a permit.
Cheers,
Bo

[The_bluester]

Funny you mention brake discs, I saw that mentioned as a pier plate while trawling the net for ideas this week. I produce a ready supply of them. My other expensive hobby (Race car) typically produces at least two nice thick, heavy cast off rotors a year as we run cheap rotors on the front and chuck them away when they start to develop more than fine surface cracking due to heat.

It would not take much to drill through the friction area to dynabolt a rotor down and then have the alloy "Shaft" I mentioned above machined to fit through the centre bore to locate it, with bolt down clamps to keep it both stable and to lock the azimuth aspect of the mount. A couple of grooves in strategic sopts would allow a flat blade screwdriver to be used to move the azimuth around. I am thinking left and right hand thread spherical bearings with linking internal threaded rod behind the main mount plate for the scope to make altitude adjustment easy. They could be bolted on for adjustment and then removed when it was properly set up.

I am really glad to see this thread fly, while it is gong to be some time before I build, there has been plenty of food for thought for me in here and via PM already. The biggest being to fairly drastically upsize the pier footings to ensure stability and lack of vibration.

One thing I am really keen on though is a concrete floor, even it if is as thin as I can get away with to keep the thermal mass down. Raised floors of any sort will be a good environment for creepy crawly and slithery friends that I don't see much need for when I am walking around in the dar

Further note to self, multiple lighting circuits required, dim red for the obvious reasons in both areas and normal white lights as well, white lights to be on protected switches so a flap has to be lifted to operate them, avoids unexpected yelling in the middle of the night!

[traveller]

Sounds like a plan Paul,
Once I get my a$$ into gear, I might contact you and get a brake disc off you (won't be for a while though).
Also, if you are after some carpet offcuts, just PM me, I have a small roll that you can use to pad up the pier to save your toes/shins etc.
Bo

[traveller]

Not sure if you saw this thread Paul, but the EQ6 wedge has an interesting design, note the AZ/Lat bolt and screw mechanism.
Bo
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=1070225#post107022 5

[The_bluester]

I might even have some carpet lying around myself, a good idea that I had not thoought of. We had carpets done a few years back and there is some spare so long as the mice and rats have not got into it.

I will keep hold of one of my scrap rotors for you. I have a couple at the moment that are acting as doorstops.

I did see that Bo, I think someone posted it on the IIS facebook page a couple of days ago. it is what set me thinking on the lines of a tube and plate wedge though I would have to to the other way and have the fixed portion in the middle and the moving section on the outside. I still have to watch out though that I do not spend so much time and money that I may as well just buy the off the shelf product and bolt it down.

[jenchris]

I guess that a turf roof would stop that being a problem.
Or just plain camo paint.
Paint rocks on it so it looks like a rockery.
:P
I guess if you're going to use a car stub axle, you have it all there - just bolt the steering assy (king pin) to the pier and adjust with a tie rod

[The_bluester]

Actually rocks might not be a bad idea, we are in a pretty rocky area!

Ah well, having lost two sheds in the recent fire we will have plenty of practice for permit applications, what is one more?

I am just trying to decide once and for all on siting at the moment, my original location has both advantages and disadvantages. But so does everywhere else on the place. Biggest advantage I can think of is that my original thought I can make accessible by car year around without much effort and other places would end up havng to cart equipment in with a wheelbarrow in the winter!

[jenchris]

Cart equipment in winter? - two answers to that depending on your sense of humour and ethnic extraction...
1. You're married aren't you?
2. I thought you built a shed, what's in it if you keep taking the contents back to the house?

[The_bluester]

Lol, not my gear to set up. My imager friend would be carting his gear out each time from Melbourne. If i get this built then mine will have a permanent home out there.

An idea of my situation attached, the property shot shows the place overall, you can see the bend in the road that gives me headlight issues, to make it worse the far end of that corner is higher than we are.

The close up shot shows about where I was thinking to place the shed, handy to my existing shed to get a power connection. I am thinking of 240V to the warm room and a 12VDC regulated power supply in there to run the gear, perhaps stopping off at a small 12V rechargeable battery along the way to provide a bit of float in the event of a power interruption.

For simplicities sake I would make all the lighting 12VDC so it can be run off the PSU that will be running the scopes, less work that I have to get a sparky to do that way and if something does not pan out in a way I am happy with, I can just change it myself (Legally)

[The_bluester]

OK, opinions please from folk who have done it.

Having already drastically increased my pier footing size expectations. Full concrete pier with a pier plate on top? Concrete to a little above ground level and steel above that or concrete to level with (But isolated from) the slab and steel from there up?

I know that concrete is not really all that rigid, and a floor level top to the concrete gives that much less to stub toes on (For the visual scope that you will be closely approaching anyway, less important for AP where you want to leave it alone and keep shake inducing feet away) But are there any inherent disadvantages to a steel pier dynabolted to a big footing? Aside from the cost of the steelwork anyway.

I am handy enough to make a good fist of any of the above options and without having to buy much more than the raw materials (Every big job has to let you buy at least one tool you have never had before, right?)

[jenchris]

I core filled a 250mmID plastic water mains pipe - wall thickness about 12 mm - it's very hard to induce any effect onthe camera and guider.

[AstralTraveller]

There is one thing you seem to be missing here - room for expansion. You are building to accommodate what you have. What happens when that new scope or friend comes along? I'd consider leaving some space for that big dob / solar scope / friend's imaging scope on tripod. Yes, it costs more now but it could be much cheaper in the long run.

The roro I used to know had fold-down walls on two sides. The entrance was from the south, the roof rolled to the north and the east and west walls swung down. They were counter-weighted. A bit more work but much lower horizons, especially for newts where the centre of rotation is lower then for SCTs.

[The_bluester]

Actually that is with me allowing for some expansion! The space allowance I have made for each scope is the same, and is allowing for my imaging mate buying something significantly larger than his 700 odd long refractor on a GEM in future, it is utterly rediculous for my own current gear which is a fork mounted SCT!

I based my guestimate (Which is still just a guestimate at the moment) on 700mm from the pier for the counterweight bar plus 300mm of fat to make a 2.0M diameter circle for the imaging rig to occupy. Add to that another meter of space to each side of the shed for easy walking space.

Following on from that I want nearly a meter between that exclusion area and the end walls and nearly a meter between the zones for each scope and it starts to look like 7M for the scopes, which I have a hard time justifying, I reckon I can justify a 10M long shed overall, 6M for the scopes and 4 for the warm room. I would love to build something to rival Keck, but something that houses everything I can think of right now will have to do from a financial point of view.

While I may not get general approval for it, I do want the warm room to have enough space for bunks in future as well as a couple of desks. Or at least a couple of nice chairs, if we are going to spend the night out there we might as well be comfy. I am also planning for the roll off roof to be set slightly above and to roll off over the fixed portion of the roof, that means no ugly structure hanging out one end to support the rolled off roof, but it also limits how much of the length the scope area can occupy.

I did have a simplification thought regards keeping stray light from the warm room at bay. Rather than a darkroom tardis door it would be simpler to use a sliding door with a switch that interrupts the warm room lights if the door is not shut (Plus a bypass switch for setup time when you want the door open and the lights on) The lighting I am planning to do with DC anyway so that would be easy to arrange myself.

[Dealy]

(Every big job has to let you buy at least one tool you have never had before, right?)


:thumbsup: My thoughts exactly. My shed is looking much healthier since I adopted that idea.

Kev

[The_bluester]

Recent jobs have netted me a small lathe, a nice table saw, new cordless drill, a tractor with front end loader and 5kw gen set (though the last two are more bushfire related so not as fun)

[Dealy]

I'm fairly well kitted out with woodworking gear but a metal lathe and mill would be nice.

Now ... how do I justify buying them?

[The_bluester]

Hmm, this thing is taking on a life of it's own. Looks like I might be able to get away with 5 X 10M instead of 4 X 10M. That would allow the piers to be offset 0.5m from the centre line and have at least as good a view in order to win a bit more space, makes the warm room more large and comfy too.

[The_bluester]

Still more permutations gonig on here. Thanks to all who have offered advice both in here and by PM.

One bit of advice by PM that is causing me grief as I would really like to follow it is not putting the pier footings into fill, though at least the fill I am looking at is decades old.

If the fill is well aged, how much of a concern would that be for ground movement? If I shift a little further off the dam bank and get a cut made and possibly a lower edge filled a little I might be able to get low enough on the bank to get at least the bottom portion of pier footings into undisturbed ground. I am just not sure if the extra cost of an excavator to make the cut will be worthwhile? The cost would feel worthwhile though if I did not do it and we spend time regularly fixing polar alignment as the piers slowly move.


I am also looking to use a standard shed size to keep cost at bay, so it would get bigger and smaller at the same time, the standard ish rural shed size is 6M X 3M bays, so 6 X 9M is sounding likely instead of 4 X 10, with re engineering of the roof to make it roll off. I would still like the roll off section to go over the top of the fixed portion as it saves space for the supports of the roof when it is off and would look nicer IMO.

There are plenty of flat places on the property where I could put this but they have various quite good reasons to not go there. Mostly the same reason over and over again actually, ACCESS. If I have to trudge through a muddy paddock in gumboots to go use my scope then it would all be for nothing as it would just not get used, likewise my mate would be far less keen to do the same when carrying in all his gear to set up for a nights AP. In my planned location I would still have a little access work to do but with a few truckloads of gravel I can make it into year round, all weather access by car or foot. And it is close to power and cloe enough to the house or main shed (Which will shortly be on the house network) to use a directional wifi antenna to get connectivity out there, handy for long hours of imaging to be able to get on to this site and others to stay entertained.

[The_bluester]

I have actually just had some (Hopefully) good news with regard to the permit situation. Sheds under a certain size by the sounds of things do not require a planning permit, only a building permit, which in Vic can be dealt with outside of the council process as accredited practitioners can issue building permits on councils behalf. Now to find an accredited practitioner who is also an amateur astronomer to ensure sympathy given I plan something a bit out of the ordinary!

Not getting too excited yet until the council put that in writing.

[The_bluester]

A further question while I am in the (No doubt protracted) planning phase of this idea.

For a warm room that is well insulated and in the interest of the warm room being actually WARM I am thinking on the problem of heating it.

Electric resistance heating is a no no due to running costs. Gas heating on bottled gas might be a potential but in the interest of staying alive, a coaxial flued heater would be the preference so there is no combustion products in what I would hope to be a pretty well sealed room. I am just wondering if the exhaust vent of such a heater would be a concern to imaging due to heat plumes? I may be able to control that if I can manage to work this out so the warm area is in the eastern section of the shed, one of the directions that imaging is limited in any case due to the nearest town being that way.

About the only other way I can think of would be a small reverse cycle air conditioner, split system or otherwise, which might actually be the best option for running costs and would produce cold air outside instead of a potential fumy heat plume, and no issues with combustion gasses in the room with us. It is probably more costly to install though. It would have the benefit of being able to go out and work in the "Shed" in the hotter weather in some comfort.

Am I concerned about something that is nothing to worry about with gas heat plumes from a flue?

[traveller]

I can see you are busy planning with the man shed there Paul.
My two cents, get a small gas heater and flue it to the opposite side of your imaging section of the shed. There are lots of small room gas heaters and they are very efficient in heating small areas and cheap to run. Many of them can run on mains or bottled gas, so you are not electricity dependent.
Bo

[ZeroID]

Why not go all 'ECO' and use a water bottle wall or a rock wall at the northern end if possible. Heat from the sun all day then acts as an internal radiator for the night.
I know it works, our house is solid brick clad and the northern side stays warm till well after midnight even in winter. Rooms on that side rarely need heaters and are always dry.

Surprisingly they also work as cooling during the day as the wall absorbs heat to re-energise from the nights cold. The system basically has a time lag on the temperature cycle.

Just an idea to ponder .....

[The_bluester]

My only concern with doing that would be it radiating heat during the night and affecting imaging, most of the imaging done here is to the north, the logical side to build a heat bank wall.

[ZeroID]

Dammit ! I work to the South, my North is almost useless. But I don't have a warm room anyway.
Oh well, them's the breaks...

[The_bluester]

Ah well, given the warm room would be mainly used a couple of nights a month for imagint (Who knows, I might find myself really unpopular with my mates wife and it gets used a lot more than I would anticipate) the cost to heat it will probably not be that great. I may still be able to design in some passive solar concepts that would not damage imaging.

Of more worry would be having to tell my wife and mum to use electric heat a couple of times a month to keep smoke from our wood fire away.

[The_bluester]

Well, unfortunately this weeks budget has hit us appreciably hard. No matter if you call it middle class welfare or not, the Family Tax benefit B was actually pretty significant to us, if you follow the Howard Government's reasoning that it was placing a value on a previously unvalued activity (That of one parent being at home and raising children) I can only assume that Mr Abbot and Hockey place a value of zero on my wifes contribution to raising the next generation (My son is about to turn six) Still buggered if I know how we can get her into any useful and productive work as where we are, a school bus is not available so she has to drive him to school and back each day and she has to be home for him when as well, not sure if they reckon that six years old is a good and self sufficient age where he is OK to be home alone for some hours every day of the week. Pretty hard to find work for her when you would have to be asking for a 10 to 2 job, local to home and not during school holidays.

All that at a time when I have to replace my work car, which in itself is going to cost me an extra $2500 or so per year because of the previous governments FBT changes. The work car is a novated lease and the FBT on that will go from 7% of the cars base value to 25% when I turn it over next week and I can not really cut the value of the car and still have it do what we need it to. I have juggled every ball under the sun in the last month to make that affordable by culling most luxury items I have been having over recent years and then had the budget take away every cent I managed to find.

Anyway, the upshot is that an extra $2500 a year (at least, I have not delved into the details to see what else might impact me) has just disappeared from my budget and most of my hobbies just got the chop. I still hope to build a nice obs but it is going to take a lot, lot longer. Hopefully I can still put in permanent piers this year. At least they are relatively cheap as I can keep the main input costs down to raw materials and do everything myself.

[The_bluester]

Argh, another potential setback to ponder while I think about how to attack this. The town I live near has had semi active plans for a highway bypass for years. Vicroads have recently released some animated concept "Fly through" videos on youtube. One of the proposals (I am probably concerned about nothing, that option is very unlikely to get up) would have the bypass on my side of town, only a couple of KM away with a huge roundabout, and even in the animation they show it as being lit up with dozens of the standard sort of "Light everywhere" luminaires!

Knowing my luck of the last couple of years, if I grit my teeth, spend my money and build a RORO shed they will build the bypass, do it on our side of town and double our skyglow issues in a direction that is currently pretty good!

If I build and they turn it murky, is spectroscopy overly affected by skyglow? I would hate to have an expensive RORO turned into a paddock ornament and at least spectroscopy would still let me do something useful in there.

[ZeroID]

Geez, a double whammy. A pier at least is a cheaper start option till you see what happens I guess.

[The_bluester]

I probably should just ignore the issue, by my understanding the option to put it out our way is far from favored (It is much longer and more complex than the other side of town) and even if it goes that way, who knows how long it will be before it is built.

I have however landed myself with a bit of an issue for doing it this year. Even if I get fencing in to be able to do my piers without worrying about ponies wrecking them it is going to be too wet soon to get a concrete truck in to where I would put them. Perhaps I should just muscle up and get the materials and fire up the little mixer I have in the shed! But there would be plenty of loads through that to make up the piers.

[The_bluester]

Ok, I am a long way from building but my plans are still festering away.

Can anyone comment on the use of a regulated DC power supply to run mounts and heaters? Particularly when paired with an ups to smooth over any short power interruptions (We get them from time to time)

I am thinking in terms of the 20A lab supplies from the likes of Jaycar. I am inclined to get one sooner than later and in my case being visual, would probably run the mount from it too as the worst a bump would produce is a need to realign the mount to continue observing, rather than a loss of track and guide star in AP.

[ZeroID]

I just use a converted PC power supply, free. Puts out 5v, 12v with plenty of amps available. I use the 5v to slow run fans, 12 v for mount, fast fans.
UPS are quite cheap for smaller models, work out your load and buy something with a bit of headroom for expansion and surges. Remember though that UPS are normally designed to allow a graceful shutdown on a PC, not for longer run periods unless you buy bigger and\or with external battery packs.
(My wife is in the UPS Industry over here in NZ, clever lady, very clever.)

[The_bluester]

A PC psu I did not think of, I might even have a spare. Have to work out which pins trigger it out of standby though.

I would think an ups which could run it all for half an hour would be good, if power is out for longer than that then loosing an image is the least of our concerns.

[ZeroID]

Plenty of circuits, google is your friend. I used a big resistor to trick the load sensor. Use a 400 watt model, plenty of amps to spare. I was using mine as a workshop power supply previously. You could also use a 12volt wall charger. Some of the older ones are quite grunty. I'm using a 13.6 Laptop pwr supply for the mount. About the size of a pack of cigs, output about 8 amps, strapped to the side of the pier. I work in IT so those sorts of things are all over the place. I just check the 'chuck out trolley' each day to see whats around and as I also add to the trolley I get first dibs mostly :D.
Actually my Colleagues ask me if I can use bits about to be chucked out now. They know my predeliction. ;)

[The_bluester]

My recent issue is that I don't have any 12V supplies over 1A, plenty for my mount even slewing at full speed on both axes but nowhere near enough for the corrector heater in an SCT. It just pulls the volts down and the controller cuts out.

[The_bluester]

I do like to complicate my life.

While out walking today it occurred to me that after filling it (with appropriate boxing up to install piers into un disturbed soil) an old dam on our property might be a better obs site.

It would not be completely filled, so would have part of the old dam bank which is planted with shrubs to give far better protection from car headlights than any other spot on the property. Though some drains would have to be installed to avoid flooding.
It still has views down to about 30 degrees in all directions.
It is further from and protected from house lights.
It is not visible from the roads.

On the minus side is that the piers would have a ridiculous mass of concrete set through the fill into virgin ground so would cost more, and filling it to a suitable level and compacting it would be time consuming and somewhat costly, but it is currently a dead space so I do not have to carve out an otherwise useful area to build on.

[The_bluester]

OK, more ideas floating around. Inspired by another thread in here.

I have been pondering the best location for a scope shed for quite some time, and I am still not settled.

I have an existing large shed, if a good wooden platform was built to make a mezzanine floor in that shed with a projecting "second story" room built on it, would it be possible to build something like that which would be stable enough for AP? I am sure it would be fine for visual but my concern would be that it would suffer from vibration issues from people moving about the floor.

If I could locate it somewhere that it did not destroy the usefulness of my existing shed, would a concrete column down to a below ground anchor point be a better idea for an AP pier? And how big would that need to be?

[ZeroID]

Seen plenty of build stories on CloudyNights where they have put piers down a couple of stories into the base and had isolated floors so no vibration. It all comes down to how much resource ($$$) you can muster for the build.
My pier is an old unused 10" dia concrete pipe stood on end and secured with a meter long threaded rod to the concrete slab below. Cost, about $30 in plywood, rod, nuts, washers etc and a bit of McGyver modification of some existing hardware. I could fill it with a few bags of cement to really solidify it but my floor is isolated from the pier and I have no movement or vibration problems.
I have heard of piers being made from old tree trunks ... so you might have to check the alignment now and then but it can be vibration free if you don't kick it. And a tree stump once !!
Piers through upstairs floors seem to use reinforced block columns as they would place under an upstairs fireplace. Expensive and quite large footprint. I think you can get precast coloumn units as well. Idea is good, cost becomes the real issue. Although if you can work remotely on the scope then there is no floor vibration, Downstairs computer, Teamviewer etc.
Cheapest is your old dam idea for a pier and sounds like a good location LP wise. Could make a taller pier and add a platform around it now and a shed later. Gotta think ahead ;)
How about a side or rear addition to the shed ? Probably cheaper to build than a mezzanine floor I'd say.
Keep thinking, collect resources slowly. Been there, done that. :thumbsup: I know the value of my OB and it isn't in $$$

[The_bluester]

The mezzanine idea came to me recently, more than anything else inspired by a previous suggestion of my wifes to build an upstairs obs into the house or over an existing garage, the problem with both ideas being where to put a column underneath for a pier.

If I can arrange things so that I can install a pier column or columns in the shed without wrecking the utility of the shed space (It is a pretty decent sized shed) then making a second storey/mezzanine with a ROR section could be a very tenable idea, potentially cheaper or at least not much more costly than a new shed, great views with low horizons all around, leverages the existing power and data, does not take up any paddock space etc.

The issue I keep butting up against with siting an obs on the old abandoned dam area is creating 365 day access, it would take a huge amount of gravel, and it would potentially be a lot more at risk in another fire than my shed is.

[ZeroID]

In the shed could the pier be part or integral to a partition wall ? I created a darkroom in a garage many years ago. If you pick the right position it could give better usage to the shed, Office maybe, or warm rom with PCs etc.
Floor plan with measurements required. Photos as well, inside, outside. Still quite an expensive option all the same, floor joists, beams, floor surface, pier materials, wiring, opening roof modifications.
Based on your earlier posting about budgetary restrictions, this is not a cheap option.
But dreams are free

My tinshed Ob only cost about $400 plus about $500 to modify it. Cheap chinese kitset garden shed reinforced with 6 x 1 fencing timber where required, corners, top rails. Ply and timber split roof and beleive it or not some big pallets from work supported to make the floor. Free.
Then work recarpeted with carpet tiles and I collected the leftovers, new to do the floor, again free. And the big drain pipe pier of course.
Most used tool, my battery drill and a lot of spire screws holding it all together.

[The_bluester]

In my case, the budget constraints are more a time to do things rather than a hard constraint on the total spend (within reason of course)

Using pier columns as part of a partition downstairs is an idea I did not think of, and possibly workable.

[ZeroID]

Not knowing the width of the shed and therefore the length of the floor joists it may need some central support to stop springing anyway. The pier would not be part of the wall, just isolated within the supporting wall joists. So no transmitted vibratiion.
Would you need a permit to do the work ?
What's the roof pitch angle ?
Real work would have to be a very big 'cube' of rebo'd concrete to stabilise the pier column buried into the ground beneath it.

Start digging ...:work:

[The_bluester]

This is just another idea for the mix. I imagine I would need a building permit but it should not require a planning permit. The work I would be able to do myself.

Only really significant issue I can see (Assuming I decide it is feasible to begin with) is that my main shed (28 foot by 72 foot) needs a bit of work to bring it up to snuff, which I have been progressively doing for a long time. I could find myself having to complete that to bring it into a shape were I could get someone to sign off on a building permit.

I am still working on "Approval" for the very first idea (New shed near the main shed) which is largely the best compromise and keeps the astro gear well away from the rest of my tools and stuff I would not like to have near optics. A mezzanine type arrangement would need to be a well closed off room to ensure no paint thinners etc ever found their way on to mirrors.

[Jen]

Oh these man caves are just getting better and better :) hehehe I love them :) make sure u post pics Paul :) hey Bo I wouldn't mind reading that eBook thing you wrote if that's ok :) my email addy is jabryent@hotmail.com :)
now that my hubby's insurance policy makes him worth more once he is deceased and is now sleeping with one eye open he has come to the conclusion that a happy wife makes a happy life hahaha so I'm getting an observatory instead of a pool wooohooo :) I'm just not sure which way to go yet :D