Newbie looking to get my first scope

[StarCravingMad]

Hi everyone :hi:

New to the forum as well as astronomy. I have always been interested in astronomy and ever since I was a little boy have wanted to go into space. (I still do actually lol)

But I have never taken the step towards astronomy until now. I'm looking to get a setup that will allow me to see Deep space objects and also take some pictures.

This is the package that was recommended to me (Bintel BT200 f/5 HEQ5 Pro GOTO, 200mm x 1000mm, HEQ5 Pro GOTO URL-> http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Reflector/Bintel-BT200-f/5-HEQ5-Pro-GOTO/1006/productview.aspx ), which I do plan on buying when I return from an overseas holiday in May. Now I don't understand exactly whats included, and what the specs mean.

Am I gonna need anything else to view and photograph Deep space? I already have a Canon 600d DSLR which I plan to use for the photo taking. How would I track objects while taking long exposure shots? I've done a little research but its all very new to me and theres alot of info to take in.

I'd like to hear your feedback on the package the guy at Bintel recommended me, and if you have any other suggestions of what other packages I can get.

Thanks in advance
Cheers
Kev :)

[OzStarGazer]

It is a great scope, but I am not sure it is the best choice for beginners. Many beginners seem to have problems in particular with the EQ mount.
Welcome to IIS!

[The Mekon]

Kev,

The telescope recommended will allow you to see deep space objects and do photography, but will not be outstanding for either. Any scope will show up the bright deep space objects (Orion Nebula, Omega Centauri, very bright galaxies) but it is only as aperture increases that the detail in these objects becomes apparent. A small refractor + EQ mount is usually the choice for budding astrophotography and a Dobsonian reflector for those wanting to see deep sky. What about you look for one of each (perhaps second hand)? Most of the people here who have been in the game a while have 2 or more scopes. Just like I have one motorbike for road riding and another for on the dirt.

[StarCravingMad]

Hi OzStarGazer :)

I've seen a couple videos on youtube in regards to setting up and using equatorial mounts and I think it would be ok. I think I have a grasp on how they work.
Wouldn't I need the EQ mount to track items so I can take long exposure photos? Or is this also easily done on a Az mount?

[StarCravingMad]

Thanks for the feedback :)
I would love to own more than one scope, but it will probably be a while before I do get a second one.

I have had a look at refractors and dobsonians, I was actually leaning towards the dobsonians but the package above was recommended to me by someone working at that store. I was only wanting to spend around $800 but he told me this would be best for beginning astrophotography. Do you think he was just trying to increase his sales? lol

What size aperture do you recommend? 10" or higher? I don't want to spend over $2000 I would say for my first scope, but I would like to see detail in deep space and photograph it.

Also, is it worth me modding my Canon 600d? I'd like to use it for regular photography still, can this be done? Or should I get another camera?

[Kev11]

I have exactly the same set up as you mention (as well as the same first name as yours). I wouldn't mod your camera yet. I have not done more than scratched the surface of the possibilities of my 'scope because the limitation is weather: we are between the slopes and mountains in NSW and cloudiness is common although there is little light pollution (Canberra in the SE). I have averaged 2 nights viewing/photography a month in the last three years. I would say don't spend a lot upfront unless you have a good site - the 8" scope needs a permanent set up, it is too heavy to lug around the country and the EQ takes time to align.
Best of Luck
Kevin

[OzStarGazer]

8" is usually considered good for beginners, but the bigger it is the more light it lets in so you can see deeper into space.
You won't see the images of deep space through your eyepiece like you see them in the photos you take though, but I think you know. :)
Just buy a telescope that you will really love and doesn't frustrate you. You could also buy a small dob for the first few months to get better acquainted with astronomy and then sell it and buy a bigger and more sophisticated scope also suitable for astrophotography, or also keep the first one if you don't need the money.

[The Mekon]

[QUOTE]
The recommended scope more than twice your $800!! Bintel are honest dealers so they were probably trying to point out the only scope that comes near to matching your two requirements at a reasonable price.

[CJ]

These words = lots of money! :)

[StarCravingMad]

Thanks alot for the feedback everyone :)

If I decide to get a Dobsonian mount, I am curious as to how you track items, especially for photography

[astro744]

This is a great package for a beginner for visual and astrophotography and do not be deterred by the EQ mount. One learns how to use it and it is needed for tracking. I would be very happy with this as my first telescope.

My first telescope was a 6" Newt. on an EQ mount many years ago and at the time I had to wait a while before I could afford the RA motor and then I got the astrophotography bug and needed a DEC motor.

Your mount has all of this but you still need one more thing and that is something to guide the telescope whilst taking the image. On my setup I invested in a separate guidescope and rings mounted to my telescope and a Barlow and illuminated crosshair eyepiece to guide with. My guidescope was a 60mm x 700mm refractor.

Nowadays you can get CCD autoguiders mounted on small refractors that ride with the telescope or you can still do it visually. Off axis guiders are common for SCT's and they are still available for Newtonians and refractors from Lumicon (Easy Guider Systems). These mount between the camera and focuser and have a small prism that is used to find and guide on a small field star. You would have to insure you have enough travel in your focuser to accommodate an Easy Guider otherwise you may not reach focus. I personally think the auto-guide CCD and small refractor is the go now.

Note with a Newtonian on an EQ mount, whether it be for visual or photo, you will get the eyepiece or camera at all sorts of awkward angles that are uncomfortable for long periods. This is more a problem for visual but it can be overcome by rotating the tube slightly when an object is in an awkward part of the sky. (You will need a small 2-3 step ladder too).

The guys at BINTEL in Glebe are great and they know their stuff and they are genuine in their advice. You could not buy from a better bunch of guys.

Try to avoid aperture fever as it is very contagious and can be spread by looking through bigger telescopes but also simply by reading about bigger telescope on this and other forums. I cured my aperture fever by buying a Tele Vue 60 and this is now my best and most used telescope. What this telescope can show will simply amaze you!

Note on tracking: An EQ mount is needed for long exposure tracking. A computerised Alt-Az mount can track but you get field rotation that is noticeable especially in longer exposures.

Welcome to IIS and enjoy your holiday and your telescope.

[SimmoW]

Astro, I agree with your point 're. Aperture fever! As a beginner I too am tempted to buy a (impractical, heavy) lightbucket. But your comment about your 60mm scope makes me feel more positive, that you don't always need a huge aperture, with a good quality smaller scope. Is that what u really find? Better off just having the one good quality scope that is easy to lug around...

[julianh72]

I think it might be helpful to point out to a newbie that there are "long exposures" (less than a minute or so, say), and then there are "LOOOONNGGG exposures" (many minutes to several hours)!

For the latter, yes you will need guide-scopes and a first-rate, perfectly aligned EQ mount, but for exposures of up to a up of minute or so, far more modest equipment can suffice.

For someone who is completely new to observing / astro-photography, there is a whole universe to discover (pun intended!) that can be captured at modest magnification, and with exposures of say 30 seconds or less (a LOT less, in the case of planetary work). You can achieve a heck of a lot with very modest equipment, such as manual pointing of the scope to acquire the target, and using a digital camera shooting through an eyepiece, or a webcam. For "short time exposures" of up to say 30 seconds or so (or longer, with practice), you can achieve reasonable results even with manual telescope control, but having an EQ mount with an RA motor drive makes it easier of course (assuming you know how to do a reasonable polar alignment), and having a full GoTo mount makes it easier to acquire your target in the first place.

I really don't see the need for a newbie to purchase a guide-scope as part of their initial rig, especially if the first few months of photography would be relatively short exposures of less than a minute or so.

I would suggest to the OP that it is probably a good idea to start with modest expectations (and modest equipment), because the chances of success first time out with a really sophisticated rig would be pretty slim!

If the mount and scope are chosen with a view to being useful in the long term (perhaps mainly for visual use, if / when you buy a more specialised astro-photography rig), even if it is not the ideal platform for long exposures of deep sky objects, then there is very little likelihood that the initial purchase would ever be wasted.

[raymo]

Hi Kevin, This is a sticky issue, with many things to consider, so don't
jump right in.
Firstly, your words "take some pictures" are important. Unless you
are going to be satisfied with very mediocre images, you will have a
heck of a lot to learn, regardless of any knowledge of other types of photography you may have. The processing of your images after you have acquired them will require several types of software, and time
spent learning how to use it. It is most definitely not just a matter of
attaching a camera to your scope and clicking away, except for the
most basic shots. You can spend many hours, or even days, on the
computer to come up with a really good image.
Secondly, if you don't think that you have the commitment to do the
above, the rig suggested by Bintel would probably not be the best
choice for you. Firstly, it is essential that early observing sessions
be enjoyable, in order to maintain your interest. This may not
happen if you have to lug your tripod outside, level it, attach 20kgs
of mount and counterweights, attach scope. Connect a power supply.
Switch on Synscan, enter your observing site details. Do a polar
alignment by which ever method you choose, and then do a star
align. If you have to bring your rig indoors after each session this
quickly becomes tedious. There is also the matter of cost. You can
add many hundreds of dollars to the price of the scope and mount.
Firstly a decent power supply, then an autoguider, and probably
a guidescope, and all sorts of other accessories you will find you
will need.
If you think you have the commitment, then go for it; it's a good
beginner's to intermediate rig.
I personally would suggest an 8" Dob [Go To or not, your choice].
You can simply carry it outside and you're ready to go. You can do
basic imaging with it. Whilst enjoying your new scope, learn more
about astronomy and imaging, and a bit further down the track
get the imaging rig that you have by then decided would suit you best.
I taught adult evening classes in astronomy, and was able to
follow up with many of the students. I found that frequently the ones
that went in boots and all, and bought large/complicated scopes
were soon lost to the hobby. One young man was so keen that he
imported a 17.5" Coulter Dob from the U.S. He used it twice.
In short, as has been stated many times, no one scope will do everything really well, so choose your compromise carefully.
raymo

[pw]

The dob 8" is simple & great value, but you won't get your camera to focus on it. The faster short tube version Bintel are recommending is a better choice if you want to photography through it.

[astro744]

I have collected a few different telescopes in 30 years and have tasted larger aperture. My TV-60 complements my other 'scopes but being small and of such high quality I am really enjoying using it as I can be setup in minutes, have virtually no cool down time and also be able to pack up in minutes and yes I don't have to lug around heavier 'scopes & mounts.



Good point. I remember when I started dabbling in film astrophotography I had to change focusers and I got myself a photo-visual focuser that had a removeable upper body with separate photo and visual component that could be made parfocal. It was really nice.

[raymo]

That may be the case with the Bintel Dobs, but you can focus just
fine with the SW Dobs and EQ mounted Newts. Just unscrew the 1.25"
eyepiece barrel from the focuser and the camera's T-ring screws straight onto the exposed male thread. That is how I use my 8" EQ NEWT and
my 10" Flex Dob.
raymo

[StarCravingMad]

Information overload, lol, just so much to soak in, thank God for internet and forums!

What do you guys think of this concept here? I found a youtube channel called "Astrophotography Tutorials" and this guy posts his recommendations on starting equipment based on his experiences for a first time astrophotographer.

He has some very nice photos but is only using a small and relatively cheap telescope, it seems he spent alot more money on his other gear.

He is using a 72mm ED Refractor telescope to the value of only $379(USD?). (Anyone know what the ED stands for, I haven't seen it yet in my scope browsing I don't think.)

The rest of the gear is actually where he spent the bigger part of around $4.5k he says.

Teleview TRF-2008 Flattener/Reducer $250
Orian Atlas EQ-G Computerized Goto mount $1400
1 shot colour cooled Astro CCD Camera $1200
Auto guider (No price mentioned)
Plus extra optional accessories such as dew heaters, Electronic focuser, Stabilizer pads,

He guarantees that his setup with a 75mm ED Refractor will take better photos than any other scope type/size.

Why would a smaller scope take better shots than a larger aperture scope, I don't get it?

This setup is way over my budget, but I am curious as to why he is pushing Astrophotography noobs in this direction.

Also would like to know if this is what Mekon meant when he said "A small refractor + EQ mount is usually the choice for budding astrophotography"

Link to his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaMQo_AnnzQ

[barx1963]

Kevin
You are coming up against the biggest issue that faces beginners in our hobby. Unfortunately there is no scope/mount combo that does it all and achieves great results. Everything is a compromise and the important thing is decide what you want to do and then work out how to achieve that.
Imaging and visual observing are very different beasts, and within those 2 broad areas there are different areas of interest that have different equipment requirements. Add to that the limits imposed by budget and you have to make some hard decisions. If imaging is what you passionately want to pursue, then definitely go for it but my advice would be select good gear for imaging. And if that is the case then the mantra is that the largest part of your budget should be spent on the mount.
If however you really want to be a visual observer but dabble in imaging then my advice is get a dob, preferably 8" to 10" and some charts etc to learn your way around the night sky. If you want to dabble in imaging then you can still have a go at startrails or time lapses and see if night time imaging really floats your boat.
The message is trying to do it all is really only going to lead to compromise.

Cheers

Malcolm

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Kevin,

One reason a small but quality refractor is a good choice for AP is that they are light, they require little or NO maintenance, like aligning the mirrors (called collimation for newtonian reflectors, like the one suggested to you).

Refractors that are ED (Extra Low Dispersion) have quality glass, normally a GOOD focuser with 10:1 fine focus mechanism and are light, usually weigh about 3kgs max and therefore don't tax an EQ mount that much, meaning tracking is easier and more reliable than a great big hunk of 8" tube weighing about 10Kgs or more.

AS you have stated you want something that can show details AND do astrophotography, then the easiest way to get started is an 80mm ED refractor on an EQ5Pro or HEQ5Pro. Buy a T Ring which clicks onto your DSLR camera in the place of the lens and then this screws onto the 1.25" adaptor that Raymo mentions, or an extension tube out the back of the refractor focus tube.

I mention ED80 as it has a reasonable focal length of 600mm, good quality glass (not in the Televue league or Takahashi, but good enough) and is light, affordable ($629 for the telescope tube/finder/rings from Bintel) and can be mounted straight onto an EQ5 Pro ($1029) and a Canon T Ring is $35.

So for $1693, (plus the cost of an extension tube) you could whack the camera on it and take say 30 sec shots, and stack them to get some photos without too much trouble.

Yep, its TWICE your price, but not much fiddling with the scope needs to be done, such as collimating and cool down or a beefier mount to hold it.

One reason I have (and others) started with an 8" reflector on an HEQ5Pro is that the mirrors and tube in a newtonian are relatively cheap for LARGE aperture compared to a refractor glass lens which needs careful construction and exotic glass to make it work, hence the higher cost.

My set up is selling for $$ similar to the Bintel $1699 for the 8" F4 on HEQ5 Pro and this is around the same for the abovementioned ED80 on a less capable EQ5Pro (handles less weight).

This is about your starting point to get into easy (ish) astrophotography and EXACTLY what Bintel are suggesting as a base pack.

As the 8" (200mm) is BIGGER, it will let in more light than the 80mm and therefore you will get MORE showing for the same 30 sec photo which is about the limit before mount error, tracking and polar alignment may start to make your stars funny shapes etc.

The large mirror of the 200mm reflector means it gets more details too and has a 800mm focal length (F4) or 1000mm F5 (like mine). I can use mine visually as well as for photography, but need a special low profile focuser adaptor to reach focus with a camera. More cost, then there is autoguiding using another scope+camera+computer to keep the mount on track for longer exposures, therefore MORE $$$ and so on and so on.

You rarely keep your first scope (or at least use it to justify buying another one which is bigger/better/more capable) so if you dont want to RISK $1600-$2000 on trying to get Astrophotography, then start with a Dobsonian, use it for visual, pay about $500-$600 for it and keep it forever. Later, if you are still interested, keep or sell the dobsonian here to a newbie and save up for the above mentioned AP rig and see how you go.

It is a risk, and one most of us here who have tried astrophotography either have committed to with open wallets, or dabbled and closed the wallet and did something else, or simply stayed a visual observer.

A lot to digest, and something I went through in one of my tax return posts a while back, here (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=63415&page=3) which has a LOT of information and choices and suggestions on this very topic. Take a read and see what you think.

Cheers

Chris

[StarCravingMad]

Thank you so much everybody. I understand what everyone is telling me and I will take your advice. Instead of jumping straight into the Astrophotography rig, I will probably go for a Dobsonian instead for the time being. 30 second long exposure shots are fine by me to begin with.

And I'll see where it goes from there and decide later if I wanna get into a full AP setup.

Does anyone have any sample photos of what can be achieved on that type of setup?

Also, weather these days is actually quite sucky, haha, when are the best months for Astronomy for us downunder?

Cheers
Kev

[Oggie]

Kevin,

I am going through this myself at the moment, looking to purchase my first scope, but I have the advantage that I have had the opportunity to use my daughters 8" SkyWatcher Flex Dob with Goto for the past three months.

I am very surprised with the results I have been able to achieve with attaching my Canon 60D on prime focus and taking numerous 20 second exposures then stacking in DeepSkyStacker, along with flats and darks to produce photos of some of the larger Nebulae. The photos don't always work out (lot's of trial and error), but when they do, it is brilliant (at least to my eyes - see below). I know the photos I have produced are far from perfect, but they have encouraged me to take the next step.

As I am really into the photographic side of things and not as concerned with visual astronomy, I intend to initially go with a GSO 6" Ritchey Chretien Astrograph on a HEQ5 Pro EQ mount and will take sub 1 minute photos and stack those. I hope to put this together with all the basics for less than $2,000.00. Down the track I will likely add either a guide scope or an off axis guider to the setup for longer exposures.

http://locost7.info/images/OrionNebula.jpg

[StarCravingMad]

Thanks Peter!

I don't know much about how the photos are supposed to look, but Im impressed and would be more than happy to get similar results myself. :)

One more question everyone.

I know that refractors can also be used for terrestrial viewing. I am really into wildlife and would like to get a closer look at some of the birds, as well as look around the area. Would a dobsonian be okay for land viewing and tree viewing? Or is it strictly for sky viewing?

[OzStarGazer]

I think an image erector (not very expensive) should work with all telescopes, including dobsonians. However at least with my scope the image is not only upside down; right and left sides are also inverted.

[pw]

The Bintel 8" dob struggles to focus close enough & of course everything is inverted. I tried making a photo through mine of a bird in a large tree, very low contrast & sharpness.

[CJ]

Hi Kevin
The term Dobsonian refers to the type of mount. The telescope they usually support, a Newtonian, aka a reflector telescope, does turn everything upside down, making them not really usable for terrestrial viewing.
:thumbsup:

[CJ]

I saw a diagram somewhere that had reflectors inverting along the vertical access but not the horizontal axis. I assumed the secondary flips left and right back to normal. Darned if I can remember where I saw it.....

[OzStarGazer]

By the way, do you-all flip your photos of the moon in Photoshop or any other program? I do, although I guess it is not so important, but I like to see the moon like it really looks in our sky... :) (Well, of course only if your scope inverts images...)

[StarCravingMad]

I just ordered myself a cheapie refractor online. When I get back from my holiday to the philippines and I figure out how much I have left in my budget, I'll get some quality kit then.

For the price of this cheap scope I am not expecting much from it, only to maybe look at the moon as well as for terrestrial viewing.

Ordered from Kogan as it was on sale from $139 down to $56

1 x Refractor Telescope 70mm x 700mm
3 x Eyepieces (SR4mm, H12.5mm, H20mm)
1 x Barlow Lens (3X)
1 x Erector (1.5X)
http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/refractor-telescope-700mm-x-70mm/?gclid=CNG-8KbMtL0CFQEepQodOzYALw

Gives me something to play with until I can get myself a proper scope :)

[Scorpius51]

Hi Kev

I have the exact combo that you were recommended, although I purchased them separately. It is a great setup for visual, which is what I use it for. Many DSOs are visible with this scope, particularly if you have dark skies. The mount is quite sturdy with this relatively short OTA and tracks very well when suitably polar aligned. I see no reason why it wouldn't be fine for astrophotography with a suitable camera setup.

The challenge for photographing DSOs is mount alignment and finding the best exposure and image processing techniques. There are many experienced members here that can guide you with this.

Cheers
John

[astro744]

Odd number of reflections = left to right reversed. i.e. back to front.

Even number of reflections = upside down.

Standard Newtonian has 2 mirrors (even) therefore image is upside down. If you want it right way around stand on the side and turn your head.

Standard refractor with star diagonal (odd) produces left-right reversed image when standing behind telescope and looking down.

Standard SCT has 3 mirrors when used with star diagonal (typical) therefore has odd number of reflections and image will be reversed.

Note upside down is not reversed and will match a star chart. Reversed will not match a star chart.

[astro744]

An 8" f6 standard Dob is effectively a 1200mm telephoto mirror lens. At this focal length even a 1/4 second exposure will produce a blurry Moon (although typically Moon shots are faster shutter speed. Add a Barlow for extra focal length required for planets and whether still photography or video you will find the image moving too fast.

In 30 seconds your field has significantly shifted so I'm not sure how you can photograph without any form of tracking. Alt-Az motorised tracking is OK but you get field rotation over time. You really need EQ tracking.

[astro744]

This should be a rule every imager should stick to not just for planets and the Moon but also star fields (so you can match up with a map!).

The IIS Moon phase too could do with a flip although it simply looks upside down. It is what you would see if you looked at the Moon in the sky with the unaided eye facing south with your back arched over and observed it upside down. If the argument is that the view is to represent that in a telescope, then which type, Newtonian, refractor with star diagonal or SCT with star diagonal? I think the view should represent an unaided eye (or binocular) view from an observer in the southern hemisphere since IIS is a southern web site. The Moon would typically be in the northern part of the sky so the observers back would be to the south (high altitudes near zenith excepted). First quarter Moon is a good example. When seen in the sky from the southern hemisphere it is illuminated from the left or from the top left if rising or bottom left if setting, never from the right when waxing. The IIS image shows the correct part of the Moon illuminated but upside down. If we are catering for northern hemisphere viewers, then the question must be asked. Why?

[OzStarGazer]

Well, let us know how it is and how much it weighs... :) I haven't taken a decision yet. I looked at the Celestron Travel Scope and PowerSeeker, then I also found some cheapies on eBay, but I don't know yet. I wish they sent the Travel Scope cheaply to Australia from overseas, but unfortunately it is still a bit heavy. Shipping costs are more than the scope!!!! And the scope is half the price it is here. :(

[astro744]

Do you have a set of binoculars? I often recommend that if you do not have enough money for a descent telescope you spend what you do have on quality binoculars as they will last you a lifetime if cared for.

The telescope you have chosen is a bargain at $56 but you will find the Huygens eyepieces will let you down. Your most used one will be the 20mm giving you about a 1 degree field at 35x magnification. The 12.5mm will give you about 0.625 deg at 56x which will just fit a full lunar disc. (I am allowing 35 deg. apparent field for the Huygens eyepiece). The Huygens eyepiece is a very early design with a narrow apparent field. It was designed to work with very long focal ratio refractors.

You will also find you will likely use the 4mm and Barlow once (just to try them) and then pack them away as the magnification is simply too high for this telescope. Note if this telescope comes with any screw-on solar filter for the eyepiece, through it away as it is NOT safe as it will crack and let damaging rays of the Sun through.

[OzStarGazer]

The binoculars would be an option for travelling, but I also wanted to use the small refractor with a solar filter to view the sun...

[StarCravingMad]

The ones on the Kogan website were free shipping. I paid an extra $1.66 for postal insurance :)
I think it goes back to regular price soon.