The Federal budget, it wasn't all bad

[zultan]

$188m for the Australian Square Kilometre Array Pathfinder and Square Kilometre Array Radio Telescopes. :)

http://www.news.com.au/money/federal-budget/things-you-wont-believe-are-in-federal-budget-2013/story-fn84fgcm-1226642450043

[icytailmark]

dont forget they are finally helping disabled people in this country!!!

[multiweb]

At least that's going towards something constructive in Science not like the 68% of our GDP pIssed on welfare. Sounds we're heading for another surplus in 2017 though. All good. Go Swannies!

[pgc hunter]

All I can say is.... roll on September

[icytailmark]

yes bring on september i will be voting for labor for finally helping disabled people.

[Deeno]

.....or another unfunded broken promise

[multiweb]

I'm all for this. Taking care of the disabled and the oldies first. But with what money now? What's left after paying the young ones at home doing f'all for the past 7yrs? You reckon they remember what work is? :lol:

[casstony]

It would be a lot easier to care for the underprivileged if the ministers took up meditation instead of dreaming up grandiose schemes that waste billions of dollars.

Good to see a little money going to science.

[multiweb]

It's only a grandiose farce now where ever you look. What budget?... :lol: The bottom line is that they've run us into the ground and below and that's riding a mining boom. :rofl:Did you hear the surplus predictions and all the talks. It's fraking embarrassing... What about cutting gvt spending instead of taxing more? Too complicated?

[casstony]

I didn't bother listening to any of the budget - history is the best guide for future expectations. Remember we are much better off than the rest of the world - we're still at the top of the cliff :)

[multiweb]

Same here. Just noise to my ears. Had to have a look for a laugh though. Now that the AUD is going down hopefully we get some export going. But we need to go back to a gvt half the size of what it got to now for no reasons. That's gotta hurt a lot of people unfortunately.

[Steffen]

Take another look, most of the raised money comes from spending cuts, rather than taxes. The Medicare levy increase serves to fund the bulk of the NDIS scheme. Of course, a lot of the money also comes from making big business actually pay the taxes they ought to pay already.

Cheers
Steffen.

[AstralTraveller]

Social security and welfare are the biggest area of govt expenditure accounting for 34.68% of total spending. Of this the largest slice goes to the aged (13.75% of all spending) followed by assistance to families (8.77%) and assistance to people with disabilities (6.4%). The unemployed and sick combined get 2.4% while indigenous Australians get 0.26%. The whole welfare sector costs 0.94% to administer (or 2.7% of total welfare expenditure) and that covers capital and wages costs.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-09/interactive-budget-2013-where-will-your-tax-go/4682404

The fact that our economic system is structurally unable to provide work for all is not the fault of the unemployed. Naturally the unemployed lose hope - and not just in the last 7 years. I saw it in the early 1980's when I dispensed the dole. Fraser announced that everyone on the dole would be interviewed every 6 months to see if they were genuinely seeking work. If you were in Wollongong you had a 50% chance of seeing me. There were no staff to follow up interviews (not even non-attendance) so no one was ever cut off and the whole 'program' was a great waste of money. None-the-less it was pretty easy to see who was genuinely looking for work and who wasn't. Of course there was differences but overall the longer people were unemployed the less motivation they exhibited and those who had had a job in the past were more motivated than those who had never worked. Once one discounted those who had given up seeking work (and often had become unemployable) there was still far more people seeking work than there were jobs available. I believe nothing has changed. Of course we were told back then that the unemployed were the source of the problem, not it's victims. As I said, nothing has changed.

BTW before it gets lost; I'm glad they are funding the SKA and pathfinder. Pity some parts of the media don't realize that to avoid becoming a third-world economy we need to do first-world research.

[multiweb]

This doesn't even add up. :) Although you used 'most' in the sentence so it could work if most <=0 . ;)


:confuse3: This doesn't add up either. The NDIS scheme is a good thing long overdue but they should have planned it ahead and years ago when they still had money.




Ought to pay? That is the issue in my eyes. You can't make the big ones pay more. It doesn't promote growth. It's biting the hand that feeds you. Big businesses produce. Gvts spend.

[AstralTraveller]

Actually it's workers who produce.



If big business won't pay then don't let them exploit our national resources. Take them back. Let Gina wash dishes for a living.




The need for growth built into our economic system is the biggest single problem facing humanity.

[Retrograde]

Sorry but it's you who clearly has no idea whatsoever. Maybe time to re-assess where you get your information from?

The election is all about broadband. The NBN will hurt the business model of electronic media (Foxtel in particular) which is why its owners News Ltd (who own 70% of all newspapers sold in this country) & others like commercial radio & TV have been campaigning against the government rather than reporting the facts.

Lowest ever interest rates, continuing low unemployment, uninterrupted growth, re-affirmed AAA credit rating - yeah the country is in terrible shape. :screwy:

[multiweb]

Ok, poor choice of word then let's swap by generate money. To pay the workers as well.


Gina's still got to dig it out and export it.



Growth promotes research and progress. You're talking about over-population. :)

[avandonk]

The real idiocy was Keven Rudd who stupidly cut taxes by 50 Biliion after he won. It was a trap set by non core promises Howard.


Bert

[Deeno]

Makes you wonder how we could possibly rack up 300 billion dollars of debt and god knows how many billions are in the budget black hole.

[AstralTraveller]

Actually workers generate profits and so pay the employers.




It is true that historically capitalism had more use for research than the preceding feudal agricultural economy and so promoted research. However it does not follow that capitalism is the only possible economic system that would value and promote research. Unless the whole world were to fall victim to a Pol Pot-like dictatorship any conceivable economic system in this technologically-reliant world will value and promote research, though priorities would certainly change. Cuba, for all its faults and failings, is doing fantastic research in medicine (cancer treatments in particular), though this won't be reported in the mainstream media (I heard this from a friend who is a GP). [And before anyone suggest otherwise, no I'm not suggesting we slavishly follow the Cubans.]

However capitalism has an inbuilt need for growth and this is its great Achilles heel. In the long term permanent growth (implying an increased rate of usage of natural resources and an increased subjugation of the ecosystem to human sustenance) is simply unsustainable. Over-population is part of this problem but the fact that more people can (in principle at least) generate profits quicker will prevent capitalist governments from addressing this problem. It is notable that China (again despite its many many faults and failings) has taken the population issue more seriously than India.

[Deeno]

Oh sorry.
The gross debt only currently stands at 267 billion dollars.

$14000 for every worker......

[Retrograde]

but the correct measure is net debt (about $100b less)

[Octane]

It's my generation who will be left to pick up the debt that this wasteful government has left behind as its greatest legacy.

All the economic growth, low interest rates, low unemployment, etc., simply cannot negate the ridiculous debt situation this country now finds itself in.

Who in their right mind finds borrowing $100 million a day to float this nation feasible or acceptable? It /has/ to be paid back. And, with interest.

Sigh.

H

[multiweb]

Hey Pete, I reckon the interests owned on the whole amount for the time it's gonna take us to pay it back will round it off. ;)

[multiweb]

Us and the kids unfortunately. Next step is sucking our SMSF dry which has already started. I'm thinking of bailing out buying gold and dig a hole somewhere. :lol:

[avandonk]

Octane your generation deserves it!

My daughter is about your age and she thinks 'we' got some sort of advantage.

Bert

[Octane]

I wouldn't wish debt on anyone Bert! :P

H

[avandonk]

It is not that. It is all about relativity.

When my daughter was born in 1972 I got stuff all from the Gov.

She is now a smart person that tells me my generation has taken all the good positions or possies.

She was driving me back to Darwin from Katherine at about 130km per hour in her turbocharged Land Rover. She then had the nerve to say to me that my generation had taken it all! Of course I was not amused.

I wonder if when I croak and leave her my hacienda worth over 600k in Eltham would she say I was a squatter?

Bert

[AstralTraveller]

Returning to the OP for a moment, it seems the Australian Academy of Science isn't too fussed about the allocation to science in the budget. Probably no surprise but that doesn't mean they are wrong.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-15/scientists-lament-budgets-lack-of-vision/4691674

[LewisM]

What is most disconcerting about the forthcoming election is not the fact that the Liberals WILL win, but rather the fact that there is basically no other option - the election is purely to get Gillard and her throng of inept socialists OUT of government (oh, I will be SO glad to see Wayne Swan go!!!).

Facing a VERY poor choice at the polls, I am totally undecided whether to go with my traditional "genetic" selection of LNP (wish the Nationals were still a solo band) or to do the unconscionable/unthinkable - a donkey vote! As much as I dislike Gillard's National Socialism (:) ), I also have absolutely NO faith whatsoever in Abbott and his now tactless bunch of schoolboys.

And NO WAY IN COLD HELL AM I VOTING FOR PALMER. Be like voting for Pauline, with Money :) :)

H is right - the future is grim thanks to the wanton spending and insidious taxes imposed by the current "Government".

Anyway, this is not the place to discuss the reality of the situation and what needs to be done to fix it. We need a truly Off Topic Forum :)

[GrahamL]

You guys are going to break the quote button again if this keeps up :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

:lol:Let me be clear here. I am not an economist.

Reading some of these replies here is amusing, although the subject certainly isn't. :( How many here actually have a real grasp of macro and micro economics? Really, how many? Any practising economists here? Come on, you can own up now :D

I certainly don't have a grasp of it......and I have actually studied it, as units in management studies. :sadeyes: It is bewildering, which is why the world is in such a 'financial hand-basket to hell'! I am fairly sure few would be brave enough to deny that. A country cannot keep accumulating debt indefinitely.....it is a house of cards, which will eventually topple. You simply cannot have infinite growth, it can't be done. Something eventually has to give.

The highest debt to GDP ratio in the world, according to the World Bank include Zimbawe at approximately 218% GDP and Japan, which tops the list, at 220% GDP, whilst Australia is around 23% GDP, with the US at 73% GDP. The least amount of debt to GDP being North Korea at 0.4% GDP, which isn't surprising, as who the hell would want to lend them money? Japan's interest rate, like many countries is sitting at 0. Not much room to stimulate the economy, hey?

The bottom line is Governments, of all persuasion, spend money, usually money they don't have, nor which the poor old taxpayer can afford, to further their own desires or agendas, all the while, trying to keep disparate groups happy. Not an easy task.

It doesn't matter what they spend it on, whether it is wasted or not, as it keeps money circulating, which constantly percolates throughout the community. If Governments stop spending, money stops circulating, and thus stimulation of the economy draws down. Not a good place to be if you happen to be the one that loses your job, as I did during the GFC, and, if some had their way, no social security to fall back on.

It is mostly only those well off, or in secure employment who may advocate the eradication of social security. That's right, lets kill benefits and make a high number of people poor; that'll really help the country. Just remember, not everyone is as smart or clever as you and these people will always languish behind and will probably never be able to survive on their own. Oh well, survival of the fittest then. But remember, as there will always be someone on top, there will always be those on the bottom, its immutable. All we can hope for, at least I do, is to end up somewhere in the middle. Perhaps we should just 'euthanase' the poor, as the burdens that some seem to believe they are. Radical thought? No, it isn't a new idea, as the old sci-fi movie Logan's Run visited that concept.

Oh listen, I can hear howls of derision! I have been to poor countries and I am so very thankful that I am Australian and live in such a wonderful country, where I can make comments like these, without fear for my very life. Having seen what it is to be poor, I can certainly understand why so many make desperate attempts to get here. We are so very lucky living in Australia, even if you think otherwise.

But, back onto topic, it doesn't make any difference who you vote for....absolutely none, as you will still end up with a politician, usually someone who is ill equipped to run a $1.5 trillion economy. Then you multiply that by the number of seats and what do you get?

Well, I am reminded by the quote "What is a camel?" ....... A horse designed by a committee :D

For those that think times are grim, no they are not and if you think that statement is stupid, go read the Desiderata. I used to have it on the back of my loo door and contemplated it frequently.

Times are great! Why? Because I wake up every day still sucking in air. In fact, it is my motto. Any day you wake up still sucking in air is a great day indeed. Now the alternative, well that really is grim. Yeah, the grim reaper grim!

We live in difficult times and good times. Hmm, I seem to remember Charles Dickens start one of his novels that way, Yes, "It was the best of times and it was the worst of times", A Tale of Two Cities. First published in 1859....... So nothing really changes then?

Enjoy each and ever day. :)

Cheers Peter

[toc]

Saw a great bumper sticker today - 'Voting for Tony Abbott because you hate Julia Gillard, is like eating $%# because you hate spinach.' Pretty much sums it up for me :)

Anyway, Im getting FTTH in a few months so Im not fussed who wins to be honest - they are both abysmal.

[AndrewJ]

I reckon if everyone in OZ
( who is sick of the current politics )
drew a square box on their ballots
and wrote alongside it "No One worthy of my vote"
then put a tick in it,
it might just rattle their little system enough
that those who would be kings got the blowtorch put on em.
Sure its an invalid vote, but if enough people did it
it couldnt be ignored, and the vote cant be passed along the chain
as per the present system.
That said, i still wonder why, when we are supposed to be in the best of times, we cant get a surplus????

Andrew

[casstony]

There are some who know exactly how the financial systems work; unfortunately most of them are white the collar criminals (literally, although not convicted yet) responsible for the magnitude of the current crisis. It's in their interests for us Plebs to find economics 'bewildering' so that we won't know who to blame.

Back in the Savings & Loans crisis hundreds of US bankers were convicted and jailed; the current crisis is far worse with plenty of evidence of fraud, yet we're not seeing truck loads of bankers heading to jail.

Politicians and bankers in all developed countries are guilty of immoral conduct and in the large economies that's mixed with criminal conduct.

[Steffen]

-- Montagu Norman, Governor of The Bank Of England, addressing the United States Bankers' Association, NYC 1924

NB: This quotation was reprinted in the Idaho Leader, USA, on 26th August 1924, and has been read into the Australian Federal Hansard twice: by John Evans MP, in 1926, and by MD Cowan MP, in the session of 1930-31.

[multiweb]

Funny you say that. I remember reading an article years ago about a researcher who did some profiling on a sample of successful corporate guys and a small population of inmates. They could almost join the dots. Like minded. :lol:

[multiweb]

I love spinach and I'm pretty sure it's not what I've tasted since 2007. :P Although my taste buds are gone now. I wouldn't know the good stuff from the everyday BS. :lol:

[LewisM]

So long as a Swan is stuffed, basted and roasted, all is good. I can tolerate Dillard, but I cannot tolerate the quasi-Communist excrement that is Wayne Swan.

Be nice to see Krudd lose his seat too - he'd sell it to the Chinese if he could.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Oh Lewis, such a lack of faith. :P We are so stupid when it comes to politics, we go by our emotions and how we feel when choosing whether we like someone or not, or by what we read and see in the media, like they always get the facts right. :sadeyes: We certainly don't go by any factual information. Or are you well informed? I am honest enough to admit I have the same failings. I don't personally know the treasurer, nor do I have a grasp of accounting to know if he is doing a good job or not? I lack the facts! And, furthermore, you just cannot satisfy everyone, all the time, another one of those immutable laws. It will always be a balancing act. A tough task, it appears.

Could you do a better job, my friend? I know I certainly couldn't, I don't have a hide that is thick enough. :lol: Politics is probably the toughest job there is. It appears to be a tough and very dirty game, with the only winners being those that write the rules of the game.

Anyone who says they could do a better job are either ill informed, delusional, or are currently a politician? :lol:

[casstony]

If my dog had been in charge of Victoria or Canberra for the last decade or so we wouldn't have had the desal plant, the north/south pipeline, Miki ticketing system, insulation subsidies, bank subsidies (ie first home buyer grants) and all the other malinvestment of taxpayers money that I don't remember right now.

So I conclude that everybody could have done a better job simply by sitting on their hands and not touching anything.

[LewisM]

Peter,

I have a combination of feelings towards Swan - a lot of it based purely on perceptions of a smug, arrogant piece of excrement, the other based on his failings to be able to admit error, as well as seemingly being a poor economist. I think the only person I dislike MORE is Simon Crean, but that is neither here nor there...

As to his performance as Treasurer, I think the figures do speak for themselves - mainly the inability to fund election promises for a start, but wanton spendings on seeming trivialities. Can anyone else do any better - time will tell, but Australia is again going to have to tighten it's belt, do the hard yards, but the benefits will show.

[Stardrifter_WA]

So then, Casstony's dog for PM then! :lol:

[casstony]

For second choice I'd like Bob Katter for PM - at least it would be fun to watch politics again :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

All a media beatup Lewis. The press lets you believe what they want you to believe! :lol:

You're doing better than I am Lewis, I don't like any of them. :lol:

Oh, with only one exception and that is my local WA Government MP, he really is great, but then, I do know what he actually does for our community. But, in fairness of full disclosure, he did get a street light shaded for me and others in this area. So, I am a little biased. :D

A poor economist? Isn't that an oxymoron :rofl:

[strongmanmike]

A bit of tired old baseless rhetoric being said here :rolleyes:...

Australia is doing quite fine guys aaand getting some excellent things in place along the way. Over hyped journalism from a heavily conservative press is a poor tool of choice to form a solid robust opinion.

Above all I want Australia to have a truly high quality national broadband structure and the coalitions late in the piece, vision-less, cobbled together against their will, antiquated version, based on poor insight and understanding of technology, will just not cut it. We can easily afford the current model so we should do it and do it properly! You should all stand up and support this amazing piece of infrastructure.

Vote 1 Labor! (even if only for the NBN!)

You can reeeally hate me now H :thumbsup: :lol:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Reminds me of a corny joke......What is an Computer? ....... An accountant with a personality :lol:

[Stardrifter_WA]

I agree Mike, however, wouldn't it be better to get fibre-to-the-node first and then it could be rolled out to houses later. After all, at some point the copper network will need to be replaced anyway. Getting to the node first would still give us increased speed anyway and then at some future point upgrade the network to increase speed to houses. I am on wireless anyway, and it is adequate for my current needs, and it would be years before I would see landline anyway, current NBN ot not.

But, I care not, either way, just as long as my service remains reliable. So far so good. :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

And on the subject of economists......Who was the world's greatest financier?...................... Noah, he was the only person who could float his stock whilst everyone else was in liquidation. :rofl:

[strongmanmike]

It has got to be fibre all the way!

VISION and guts, that's what it needs, not procrastinating, conservativeness!!!! We have the chance, it is well uner way already, don't truncate it now pleeeeeease :prey: :doh:

Do it well do it properly, do it NOW :thumbsup:

[FlashDrive]

Awesome.....:lol:

[Deeno]

The Piper is knocking.....and future generations will be paying him.:confused2:

The cost isn't vision, its delusion:screwy:

[strongmanmike]

Man, the vision and it IS vision, could have been even better but they had to draw the line somewhere :doh: . Once the optic fibre is in the ground and all the way, it is simply a matter of upgrading the delivery systems in the future, the possibilities then will be simply amazing!

NBN All the Way! :party2:

Mike

[Deeno]

:rolleyes:

[strongmanmike]

:thumbsup:

[multiweb]

Maaaate!...where have you been? You're missing all the fun. :poke:
PS: don't forget to sprinkle a little global warming on top. ;)

[Peter Ward]

So, let me get this straight.... I should rip-up my existing co-axial cable line, so I can have faster a fibre optic line (even though I don't want the content/drivel it is likely to deliver) ...so then I can pay *even more $* for a *slower* (monopoly) service option just so I can stay connected?

I think it unlikely I'd vote for any party that crazy :rolleyes:

[LewisM]

NBN is the LAST thing on my mind - I'd rather fix Australia first than spending on "trivialities". There are FAR FAR FAR more pressing issues than getting ADSL in every home. Just another baseless promise.

Peter, unfortunately you could not be further from the truth re my media delusion of politicos. I, and my family, have NOT watched TV in a VERY VERY long time, apart from ABC For Kids. I won't watch TV (more interesting pursuits to do). I get my loathing for many politicians based on actual performances not what some moronic journalist wishes to tell me - and figures speak loader than rhetoric.

So, Septemeber 14 will see me either inserting my OWN box with "Dump them all" and ticking it, or voting for a politician I actually think has the balls to fix the situation rather than pandering to minorities, trivialities and foreign dignitaries. I will not vote for someone based on just ONE interest I have; I base my vote on what I think will benefit ALL, rather than just ONE. And Labors politics is all about pandering to small minorities instead of a global reality.

[Deeno]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/technology/samsung-announces-breakthrough-in-mobile-data-speed.html?_r=0

The way wireless technology is advancing the NBN will be obsolete long before its even finished....:lol:

50-60-70-80 or even 90 billion dollar white elephant.:scared:

Mmmm.:confused:... delusional 2010 election stunt

[FlashDrive]

errr..!! ......NBN ....:question:
NOTHING BUT Nonsense.

Flash.....:D

[Octane]

No hate, Mike. None at all. What gave you that idea?

However, I strongly disagree with debt being a good thing.

H

[strongmanmike]

Very short sighted Peter, no vision :)

[strongmanmike]

Sorry, sounds great (like many anti climate change and moon landing evidence) but probably not worth trying to explain here, as you can do your own research should you chose but you are simply just wrong on this, wireless vs fibre is no contest.

Mike

[strongmanmike]

Me no stupid :)

[Peter Ward]

My vision is fine..gets checked every year.. :)

Apart from entertainment content, I simply can't fathom what a high speed data pipe can provide, that is not available to me now at less cost.

Want to build something fast and *really* useful?

How about a high speed rail that connects the major eastern seaboard cities. Now *that* would get my vote.

[Octane]

If I've offended or upset you Mike, I offer my apologies. Life is simply too short to live with hangups.

H

[strongmanmike]

Perhaps no vision on a NBN but some on high speed rail - good on you!...but I guess only if it were a coalition idea huh? ..that's not likely though is it? :)

Mike

[strongmanmike]

Hey I ain't got no hangups :lol: I just want a high speed NBN not a sad half arsed one - simple :thumbsup:

[Paul Haese]

"And the stooge has come for me again." Jeremy Oxley. So true!;)

[multiweb]

It's not available where I am in Sydney. I don't think it's half arsed. I think it's a complete arse. Bloody disaster. :lol:

[strongmanmike]

Where are you getting your info on this though? Hopefully not Ray Hadley and Alan Jones :prey:...pleeease say this is not the case. This is a huge infrastructure venture and will obviously have hiccups and problems along the way, just like the Apollo program, LHC and the shuttle program did and in the spirit of the OP, the SKA will surely have too... vision and determination will prevail in the end if you aim high :thumbsup:

Mike

[Peter Ward]

Actually I really don't like being forced to only vote for "Coke" or "Pepsi" parties. I'm underwhelmed by both.

50 years on..and our (useless) lot are still ruminating over a second Sydney airport...

I'd prefer a benevolent dictator..a bit like Lee Kwan Yew...like it or not, we will be Westernized, educated and have modern infrastructure and a Tertiary economy... or remain a slum.

Sadly I fear Oz is headed for the latter...

[Larryp]

The 90 billion the NBN is costing would have built a lot of good quality highway and saved a lot of lives, too

[strongmanmike]

Vision Larry, Vision, you got to have vision come'on! :lol:

Mike

[Larryp]

Hey Mike-better roads is VISION, isn't it:lol:

[strongmanmike]

Only with a sit and wait, do nothing government :shrug: :)

[strongmanmike]

Of course, but what you are kind of proposing would cost many hundreds of Billions or more and make the cost of the NBN look like wiring your house :eyepop:...Oz is a big country, hard enough and expensive enough to run optic fibre around a good chunk of it, let alone freeway :eyepop:

Mike

[multiweb]

From the Telstra website (/nbn) No go here. Rang them and they told me that only 35000 households have connection so far. Not a good SNR to date hey? Billions spent, 1000s connected? :lol:


C'mon... people from the LHC, Apollo program, Shuttle program? They all had something in common. A brain. :)

[Larryp]

It still needs to be done, and the longer we wait, the more expensive it gets. Look at the USA-they managed to do it, and a long time ago. I guess the USA doesn't have near the problems with over-government that we have, though:)

[strongmanmike]

There are many high quality "brains" working on the NBN don't worry about that and to suggest otherwise proves a little ignorance ;). You can make derogatory claims all you want, it's easy... but having vision and guts is not :thumbsup:

Mike

[multiweb]

A vision is different from having a budget and proper planning. People in charge right now lack a brain and more importantly integrity. Again and again and again. It is embarrassing.

[strongmanmike]

All a matter of opinion that bit :rolleyes:... but the grand essence of the NBN is sound and worthwhile, how it is financially implemented is up for debate, sure but to down grade and slash its capability is simply a travesty!

[Peter Ward]

So, great, with the NBN, punters can download high speed porn at Broken Hill, but to actually drive safely on dual carriage-ways to a remote town in Australia remains a joke (I can say that with some experience, having just seen 1500km's of the Stuart Highway....)

Our lot are still talking about completing the Pacific Highway, yet Roosevelt started the USA's national highway program in the 1930's.

Talk about the cart before the horse.:rolleyes:

[Stardrifter_WA]

What figures? What source? Have you seen the budget document maybe?

Do you know where and how much the Government is actually spending? By the way, I have no clue. I know how much tax I pay and that is very little actually, but then, I don't earn much either. It is very easy to say the country is in a mess, but where is the empirical evidence, or are people basing these beliefs on hearsay? I have no idea. And, if it is as bad as is said, why are people killing themselves in trying so desperately to get here.

The only thing I know for certain is how my own finances are; and frankly things are not that bad, sure they could be better, however, I do handle money well and make it work for me.

I don't see that things are as bad as you and others intimate. I keep hearing about how bad things are, however, they are far worse in other countries, I know, been there. Yes Lewis, things can always be better, I agree, but they could also be a hell-of-a-lot worse.

And I don't watch TV much either, I have better things to do too, like type lots of stuff here :D I don't read newspapers either and get all my news from the ABC and BBC websites, and furthermore, I don't believe half of it anyway and then doubt the other half.

[multiweb]

Mate, I'm not denying that a high speed network would be wonderful. No doubt about that. But it wasn't planned properly and its implementation is failure after failure. What's it up to now? $36bn or there about? How many people are connected today? I still can't get it... This is the latest (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/union-firms-allied-over-nbn-disaster/story-e6frgaif-1226634272172)in WA & QLD. Just another glitch? It's terrible. This thing is going to snowball like everything else because it wasn't budgeted correctly. That's the problem. Not the vision or its usefulness.

[strongmanmike]

Crude inaccurate analogy Peter and I think you know it (surely??)

[strongmanmike]

Ahhh, so now the silly name calling is over (:lol:) a little bit of sense is creeeeping in :clap: it's ok to say an idea the other team has does have merit...it gets easier the more you practise :P

Mike

[KenGee]

It's clear that there are a few Tony Fanboys posting. Isn't demo-crazy great even people without a clue get to vote!

During the height of the mining boom when the country is rolling in cash did the Libs think to help out the disabled? in 20 years time the tiny deficient this government has run in the middle of a global financial downturn will be forgotten.

[strongmanmike]

It is incredible huh Ken, I shake my head at the partisan short sightedness :sadeyes:

Go the full NBN :thumbsup:

[multiweb]

No, nothing has changed. Nothing to do with common sense. :) It's not a matter of libs or labour or green or independents or whatever. The people in charge whichever side haven't got a clue on how to manage money or any business sense for that matter. This is a fact. It's been proven again and again. I call a donkey a donkey.

[strongmanmike]

Better a Donkey than standing idle by the side of the road watching the cars zoom past ;)

[multiweb]

:shrug: You don't like cows? We've got a couple in the top jobs. :P

[strongmanmike]

I think a donkey is still faster than a cow...was good enough for Mary to carry Jesus on :lol:

So, you just want to change cows..right? :rolleyes: :lol:

Ok this is just getting silly :question:

All harmless fun...as long as we get a good fast NBN :D

[Peter Ward]

Sorry, don't see your point.

I'd rather see some serious asphalt highways...or high speed rail... laid with the first five months of my wages, taken from me this year via tax, long before some lame digital "superhighway" that can download a movie on 60 seconds..

I'd add a B-Triple on the wrong side of the road can, and does, end the lives of many in a little under a second.

[Stardrifter_WA]

$36 billion. You make it sound like it is a massive amount of money. For a little perspective, remember the Australian economy is a 1.5 trillion dollar a year economy. So 36b isn't a huge amount in comparison, particularly when you consider that spread over several years.

Cheers Peter :)

[strongmanmike]

Ah yes you do, you're just too proud...let go, it feels good ;)

[Stardrifter_WA]

That's wide ranging statement! That's simply not true, many in politics have business and other degrees. Some are even Doctors. Are they fit to run the country? Probably not, too many fingers in the pie, every one of them trying to push their pet projects. No wonder it appears to be a mess. Doesn't actually mean it is. For some real perspective, try going to poor and underdeveloped countries, then you will see how lucky we really are. A good case in point, look at the two Koreas. Chalk and cheese economically, but essentially the same country, just different ideologies. How about the Middle East; is that better or worse than Australia?

I wouldn't want to live anywhere else really, with the only exception maybe being Canada.

[Peter Ward]

Aye currumba...talk about take a horse to water... :)

Things that make my life good:

Health (which includes clean air (though the air I breathe out is taxed ) and clean water)
Education
Transport (which doesn't include gridlock)
.....

...99 places later

Being able to download content 3x faster than I am now....

[strongmanmike]

Yes, that's right, all = "no vision" :rofl:

[Paul Haese]

:rofl::rofl: this is such a laugh.

Two things need observation. If the economy is in such good shape why have the reserve bank dropped interest rates consistently for the last three years? It is now currently at 30 year lows. They only do this if the economy is struggling. Other sectors are showing recession. Fact!

Secondly based on the former one should cut back on ones spending before going to the bank once more and finding nothing in the account. Economics 101. 7 years of deficits don't show fiscal management.

[Larryp]

Trouble is, Mike, the cars don't zoom past-they crawl past on our crappy roads;)

[Stardrifter_WA]

We are still at 2.75%, much better than most other countries. US and Japan, two of the major economies are at or near zero percent. So, on that basis, we are still doing better than others. If you really want to know why the reserve banks drops interest rates, read the minutes. Mind you, it is very dry reading, so if you have insomnia, this might help :lol:

It isn't as cut and dried as you suggest, there are global factors in play also.

[Peter Ward]

Ok, so given the high cost of health-care, gridlock in our cities, sheer lack of mass transit systems, an education system that graduates children that say
"youse" or "what I done", an aged care system that,for many, forces the sale of the family home.... well you get the drift....

How on earth does the ability to download "Debbie does Dallas" in 10 seconds fix the above?

[strongmanmike]

Oh, but I thought interest rates would always be lower under a coalition government..? Ah I see, if they are low under a coalition government that means things are going good but if they are low under a Labor government that means things are going bad :question:.... riiiight :rolleyes:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Oh Peter, you are so correct. I work in the education sector dealing with tertiary students and mathematical and literacy levels could be better. With some, it is appalling, how did they get through school? I have particularly noticed acronyms that are used in texting creeping into their work. But then, it keeps me employed. :)

[blink138]

well apart from health, water, education and transport...... what have the romans ever done for us!?

[strongmanmike]

Sigh...crude and complete short sighted emotive example, you sound like my 80 year old technophobe mother :lol:

[multiweb]

Regardless of what side the current gvt is from the facts are that we're in a massive debt (+interests), the cash rate is at %3 the inflation at %2.5, credit cards debts are through the roof. People and gvt have spent money they don't have. We're not in a good position. And we've just come out of a mining boom, meaning we've literally spent our a$$ off. People who have money in the bank or super are dead in the water and taxed out.

[strongmanmike]

Ok we are going around in meaningless circles now, one persons good is another's bad, guess that's life :hi:

[multiweb]

Nobody is going in circle Mike but you. We're just stating facts. What good comes out of debt?

[Peter Ward]

Me? Technophobe? Given my day job involves managing 6 primary and secondary computers, and thousands of networked systems...Phobia? nah! ...despite all the flash lights and buttons, they are just another way of helping in getting safely from A to B.

But, I'm clear as crystal now on your party-driven position. Given your lack of a life-fulfilling application to the NBN, or a rational response, I'll take it as a serious waste of my tax dollars.

[strongmanmike]

"We're"..??? So you are a team now? :question:
I think you are going in circles, you think I am going in circles, as I said, guess that's life :)

[strongmanmike]

Cool, that was your position from the outset and I knew it, just having a bit of fun with you Peter. So how fast can you watch porn on any of the 6 primary and secondary computers in the A380 anyway....

Humour :)

[Peter Ward]

In short , it's not possible. We're still trying how to work out how to order pizza.

[strongmanmike]

From a flight steward, who will use his IPhone perhaps...?

[Gem]

My simple 2 cents: nothing is ever as bad as we moan about, nor as good as we brag about. :)

[blink138]

ha ha good un!
I think whomever is debt free..... please cast the first stone, MOST people do have debt as in mortgages etcetera
it is a very lucky person (or government) that can claim total debt freedom
pat

[Peter Ward]

I finally paid off the house some years ago..... :thumbsup:

Can I throw this one?

[strongmanmike]

You are quite right but it is indeed pretty damn good here in Oz :thumbsup:

2013 Human Development Index report released recently by the UN

Have a look at it (http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/) and stop bloody complaining (except about not getting the best NBN we can) Australia is still ranked 2nd behind Norway... and even with our teeerrible dastardly cow government, gi'me a break :rolleyes:

Here (http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/global/hdr2013/) is the full 2013 report if you care to read it... instead of the Daily Telli :lol:

Mike

[strongmanmike]

Pretty impressive Peter but did it move?...bit smaller but THIS (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/68904452/original) one did ;) :lol:

[JB80]

Well as I'm away from things I'm a bit lost with all the current issues, I still have to send my postal vote in though and what is important to me is purely selfish.
Who is going to cut the cost of living?
And who will make housing affordable again?

My guess is neither are on anyones agenda and we will have to wait until Australia is finally drawn into the global mire.

Maybe my vote will get lost in the post.

[Paul Haese]

Debt free and run a business too, but I run it with fiscal responsibility, so I can throw as many stones as I like.;)

[strongmanmike]

Cool, jealous, would it be any easier now interest rates are as low as you have ever had...?

[Stardrifter_WA]

Sorry Mike, you are trying to compare two economic realities. At one point, my mortgage was nearly 17% under Labor, it came down considerably under Liberal. So yes, at THAT time, it was lower under Liberal. But having said that, the Government actually has little control over that, as it is global realities that may dictate those interest rates.

Cheers Peter :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Yeah Grant. Just think, in thirty years time, these will be the good old days :lol:

Nothing really changes, I have always grumbled about our Government. Yes, I am now officially, a grumpy old man :rofl: Just like my late father too, and he died a very long time ago....scary! :sadeyes: At least I am maintaining the family tradition. :lol:

[Peter Ward]

Soooooo....... let me get this straight as well. A good life (according to the UN) is how long you will live, are educated, and earn money (pay taxes).

Mike... you are of Italian heritage yes?

Go to the Amalifi coast, suck up up some sunshine and Chianti...and then tell me longevity, school and taxes is what it's all about.

Kindergarten Oz (and don't get me wrong, the sunshine here is pretty good) still has a long way to go.

[strongmanmike]

You look to be contradicting yourself there :question: I was just illustrating the false but effective creation of that notion which was so successful for successive coalition federal election campaigns, that's all...not being used for this one though :lol:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Consider the first stone cast. :D Actually Pat, there are far more term deposits in Australia than there are mortgages. However, the level of debt on credit cards is very high now.

[Larryp]

Regardless of low interest rates, most business is doing it tough at the moment. There is a great lack of business confidence out there at the moment, and people are not spending. Things are even very quiet in my field.
This always happens when a federal election is called, and this time our illustrious leader has given us 7 months of it instead of the usual 2 or so.
Pure genius!

[Stardrifter_WA]

Good feeling, hey Paul. :)

[Retrograde]

Wow - where to even begin with this?

Wireless technology can never complete with fibre due to the simple physics of wavelength/frequency. One fibre-optic cable can carry thousands of times more data than the entire radio spectrum and the latter has to be shared amongst all nearby users. One fibre optic cable has already been tested at
100 Terabits/second! :clap: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028095.500-ultrafast-fibre-optics-set-new-speed-record.html

Not only that I believe Samsung used the 28Ghz range (which is usually reserved for govt/military use). I began working with fibre-optics in the early 90s in the IT space and have seen speeds grow more than 1000 times since then (currently 16Gbps) due to advancements in multiplexing technology - fibre is THE most futureproof technology in existence at present bar none.

As for the cost people seem to be just plucking figures out of thin-air with no relation to the facts. The savings in e-health alone will make it worthwhile not to mention the potential opportunities in areas such as the next wave in distributed manufacturing, 3D-printing and the incredible opportunities that regional areas will have available to them. It's easy to diss something and spread fear and doom but when you examine them almost none of the criticisms aimed at the government from the coalition are based on reality. Sound and fury signifying nothing.

[Stardrifter_WA]

In a sense yes. Agreed. It is really to do with global realities, rather than necessarily domestic realities. He, or she, who owns the loaned money holds all the cards, probably? That is the industrial capitalists. I have long wondered where all the world governments get their loans from, considering so many are in massive debt? :screwy:

[strongmanmike]

Ok you win, Australia is a terrible place the UN has no idea, Peter Ward (and his low education, VW combi, EQ5 and 50mm Tasco) is the Massiah...I'm moving to the UAE and with my wife..no maybe Nauru :question:

[Peter Ward]

Mike..you need to get out more.

Take the Opal (travel) card.

I believe the (Labour) NSW government literally pissed $100 odd million against the wall in failed tenders before putting it in the too-hard basket.

Meanwhile Singapore and Hong Kong had systems like Octopus that not only allowed mass transit travel, but you could also buy a Coke from 7/11 or a Big Mac from Maccas with the same card.

Yet the DH's in Macquarie Street said it couldn't be done. :rolleyes:

It's this sort of waste...of my hard earned tax dollars and so typical of planet Oz....that I object to.

And frankly, if I could afford it, and it wasn't so far away, I'd buy a second home in Salerno in a heart-beat, as many Europeans know how to live, ...rather be told how we should live to in nanny-state Oz.

[LewisM]

I've had a vision... Mike likes, visions, so... come Septemeber 14, the Ranga that had the sanga chucked at her will be kicked out of Kirribilli, with her hairdresser...:) There, a vision... a fortune telling forecast for Australia.

NBN - the LAST thing we need. Peter puts it at 99 on his list, much further on mine. I come from a VERY long line of land holders, farmers, graziers, stockmen. We have properties all around Leyburn, Pittsworth, Monto, Moonford, Biloela and beyond. They could not care LESS about the NBN. No importance whatsoever, compared to the matters of farmers receiving the funding and help required to feed this nation, let alone provide valuable foreign income from surplus. Vision - feed the country rather than feeding a information (read: porn) super highway.

So, our family currently live - DEBT FREE (apart from the $150 I owe Kunama :) ) - on a copper rim. We cannot get ADSL 2, and struggle with ADSL on some days. Telstra have no plans for the next 4 years to change it. Do I care? NOT ONE BIT!

Yet, I can drive for 5 minutes and arrive on the Bruce Highway (M1) - the major highway through SE-QLD. I will be confronted by a major highway in worse state than many of the roads I have seen and driven on in rural Russia! Let alone consider taking this major route up past Gympie, where this major road becomes a 2 lane highway, with B Doubles, B triples, school buses and cars (and you NEVER see a train!). But, we need a fast information superhighway more importantly.Because that may give vision to people about how pathetic our roads are and why QLD now has the countries HIGHEST car rego prices to fund the repair of the roads that the Federal wont help with... visionary.

Labor is, and always will, pander to the minorities to win their seats. Doesn't take much vision to see where NDIS, NBN and other specifically targeted scams...err...schemes are aimed at. It's not caring for Australia, its vote buying. And the problem is, many Aussies have vision and can see through the shallow agenda through to the real, under-laying VITAL agenda that needs to be fixed before we consider these other trivialities.

I love Australia, and yes, our economy is O...K... but the price of living is abhorrent (I can buy milk, bread, and cheese in Russia STILL for less than I can buy just a loaf of bread here!!! Let alone car prices), rents are outrageous (we own and rent out property and we try to keep it low, but then you face ever-increasing electricity costs... carbon tax.... and water cost and we don't provide them internet :)) ), fuel crazy. When I flew for a living, I was being taxed $0.47/$1 earned - the government essentially took half my wage, and then of course, I was not entitled to the NHS, any Centrelink etc, because on PAPER, I earned too much...

Oh, I love Labor vision.... if of course the visionary ideas fail - which they usually do - we are all accused of being short sighted (and it is a common rhetoric!). Sheesh... let's set realistic expectations rather than throw out grandiose plans so that perhaps the visionary DREAMS can become reality by working through them properly and appropriately.

Vision requires fore-thought. Fore-thought requires planning, feasibility study, MONEY, and an agreement by consensus, and the vision that such endeavours can take some time and effort, rather than HERE, NOW.

[Hagar]

What a load of ongoing crap again. TOS = No Politics. Here it goes again. The Labour Party stooge standing up to bat for his team and all the Liberal party fox terriers tearing at his feet.

Doesn't matter who has the reins. We will all be screwed by those in power who think they are untouchable. September is coming.

[iceman]

Doug I've been keeping an eye on the thread and have already deleted a few posts that got personal early on, but at the moment noone's getting personal and it's just the same 4 or 5 people going around in circles.

Noone else has to read it if they don't want it to.

It's posts like yours that come in and try and ignite things that cause more problems.

[LewisM]

You are completely right Hagar. Hence why I have no clue which way to vote this year other than removing SHMBO from Kirribili.'

[marki]

You know what this thread needs? Some foot stomping banjo music augmented with the subtle overtones of pigs squealing. Yep I reckon we would get closer to the truth that way.

Mark

[Hagar]

Mike, you make a joke of your own terms of service. It states quite clearly what is expected but then again it would appear certain people seem to have the right to extend themselves beyond the TOS agreement, me included at times.

As for the statement I made, completely true. Mike Sidonio is playing the Stooge, he will not be swayed in any direction away from the party line. He has plenty nipping away at him but still doesn't faulter.

Noone else has to read it is a very true point but again is one of the reasons you have a TOS and that is to make it fit for all.

As for my statement only being to incite a reaction, I can't see how making a statement which has been made several times in this thread already suddenly become an incitefull statement.

Sorry if you are offended by my comments Mike or Mike.

[multiweb]

I'll echo that. Same here. Cash rate is s||thouse. :lol:


Sure is. :thumbsup: Just a bunch of monkeys at the reins. Not for long though. So we can keep it this way :P

[LewisM]

I am NOT paying you 17.5% interest on our $150 :)

[FlashDrive]

I have to agree with this ( and Lewis's Vision ;) ) .....why....because it's reality ....nothing but reality....everyday life in Oz.... I'm still trying to find ' Shang-ri-la '....that's my vision....no Redheads or Hairdressers allowed.

Flash.....:D

[avandonk]

Why am I reminded of simians at the zoo throwing their own excrement at each other all the while screeching at the top of their voice how terrible all the other simians are?

Bert

[Ric]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Good on you Bert, I nearly choked on my morning coffee while reading that. :thumbsup:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[LewisM]

Monkey see, monkey do :)

[avandonk]

Many years ago I was a young lad and my auntie and boy friend took us to the zoo in Melbourne. It was 1957 and chaperones were all the go. Three young boy nephews were close enough to stop them conducting themselves in an unsavoury manner. They bought us peanuts to feed to the monkeys. They were kissing on a park bench when they were informed that the monkeys were feeding your young charges peanuts! My brothers and I were happily accepting peanuts from the simians through the steel mesh. We had figured they had more than they could eat and we still had our bags of peanuts. I will never forget the glimmering of intelligence that told me 'why do you put us in indeterminate detention?'

Bert

[Stardrifter_WA]

This thread has gone from sublime to ridiculous. :sadeyes:

[LewisM]

Much like the state of politics.

[rat156]

I've been sitting back, holding my tongue, haven't even gotten to the last pages of the thread. Some nice discussion, not too much name calling (so far). I have opinions, but I won't air them yet, there are a couple of things I'd like to comment upon before they get lost...



Mike, Religion and Politics in a post and the thread hasn't been locked yet, quick call the Pope, it's a miracle!! I, for one, call for the beatification of Mike. Or is that beautification?....



Currently residing in the Middle East, paying $150/month for 512kbps internet, it's f'ing hot, dry, dusty and grey. No the ME is NOT better than Aus.
Canada appears nice on the surface, but really it's just too close to the USA and just too cold. Aus is really in the "Goldilocks zone" I love it, I wish I was there.

Cheers
Stuart

[Stardrifter_WA]

What state of politics? That is such a wide ranging statement Lewis, and many have made the same statement.

I have no idea what the state of politics are, not a flaming clue, and I doubt many really do, unless they are an economist, an accountant or a political analyst, or something along those lines. Yes, I could believe everything I hear or read in the news or from other sources, but based on that it is merely hearsay. It is not a source of 'primary information'. It is a 'secondary source' thus must be analysed and research thoroughly to ensure its validity and needs to be checked against the 'primary source', if possible. Have you done this? I sure haven't. There is a major bias and that is that you can get facts to fit your particular argument. I am sure guilty of this, but I do try to keep an open mind, but that isn't always so easy, particularly in the heat of discussion.

Sorry, but you have said this in the thread earlier, but failed back that with any real facts, or sources, and without empirical evidence it is merely conjecture, nothing more. And that is essentially the problem, most people are basically clueless, me included, about the real state of politics and the economy, simply because we are not politicians or work within the political machinery. Nor would I want to. :sadeyes:

The only thing I can say for a fact though, my belly is full and I have a roof over my head, and as long as I have that, all is well. I can still pay my bills and that hasn't changed. Things haven't really got any harder. I have spreadsheets, of my monthly budget, going back 15 years or more and these demonstrate that I haven't been going backwards either. Yes, cost of living pressures have risen, but so has my income. Sure I haven't got much further ahead, but I haven't gone backwards either, relatively speaking. So, nothing has really changed.

As for the cost of living, well.......it just isn't free. I don't like paying taxes as much as the next man, but it is one of the two certainties in life. Nothing has really changed there. Do I have control over how those taxes are spent? No I don't, so I am not going to worry about it. What gets done, will get done. Can I change that, well maybe, if I can do something, I do it, regardless whether I make a difference or not. At least I have tried.

I cannot say who is and isn't doing, or will do, a good job, as I lack totally understanding of the countries actual economic or political state of affairs, nor the capability of the politicians concerned. After all, I don't get to see their curriculum vitae. Nor do I actually analyse the state of a our budget, and probably wouldn't understand it anyway, if I did. So I cannot, in good conscience, say anything about an individual that I have no contact with, as all I have is hearsay about their performance. And, furthermore, listening to Question Time isn't any more illuminating either, as our system is based on an adversarial system, that is the Opposition will mostly oppose anything anyway, and later introduce what they oppose.

Without a full understanding of politics and economics, I doubt anyone can make that statements with any real meaning.

I know I will end up with a politician, whether I like them or not. I am not a swinging voter, as I have a definite position based on ideology and not by its characters, which come and go anyway. mI haven't changed that position in 40 years.

Cheers Peter :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hey Stuart, what's it like playing in the big sandbox? As for Canada, I like the cold better than the heat, any day. Mind you, may not like the idea of snow though. :)

Cheers Peter

[casstony]

Most mainstream economists don't have a clue either (IMO). They think the debt problem can be solved with more debt. This will drag out the pain for decades instead of getting rid of the debt (pay off or default) and doing a few tough years now.

The greatest danger of dragging out the problem is the creation of a socioeconomic environment conducive to extreme views, as evidenced by the rise of extreme nationalistic groups such as Golden Dawn.

[rat156]

ROFL.

Laughed so much I nearly shat!

Cheers
Stuart

[Stardrifter_WA]

Well, if they don't, what chance does the rest of us have? :lol:

[Kunama]

Check out the photos I just took in my "backyard" this afternoon:

[strongmanmike]

Ah Dougie...I thought you had left IIS :question: Anyway, I really appreciate your personal derogatory comments, yet again and it is so nice to hear them :love: Shame, once we were friends (I think?) ah but sigh... then I indictated who I bend toward politically (without name calling and vitriol but mostly exagerated and light hearted humour) and now you (and a few others) hate my guts :sad: :shrug: I noticed comments on my images for example dropped off from a few regulars :lol: But hey, I am a big man with a thick skin and do not care one iota.

Please try and keep it real and easy going, much better that way.

I still love you, amen ;)

Mike

[AstralTraveller]

Well, if it was any more frozen I might even vote for Abbott. :P As it is I'll just grit my teeth and enjoy the spinach. :rolleyes:

PS I heard Rudd on he radio the other day, something that probably didn't get wide coverage, speaking at the opening of a writers festival or some such thing. He reckons he's just finished a children's fantasy book 'The excruciating death of the red witch and the return of the golded-haired king'. Like he said - fantasy.

[strongmanmike]

:lol: Sorry Mike, I was going around in circles kind of on purpose :whistle:...so I'll stop :scared3:

[TrevorW]

Peace and goodwill :lol:;)

politics, religion and sport should not be argued because we all have varying opinions, preferences, beliefs, really nothing worth losing sleep over and besides

DILLIGAF

PS: everything is transient :thumbsup:

[Stardrifter_WA]

I still love my fellow man, even if he has differing views to my mine. :) And even if he is wrong. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I love a spirited debate, but I never walk away with a grudge, and if they do, then it ain't my problem, but theirs. :D

The world would be a dull place if we all shared the same view. :) Or would be rather interseting, depending on your point of view! :lol:

Cheers Peter

[strongmanmike]

I of course agree with you on the technical notes you have mentioned (one could go on and really ram the truth home but it is largely a waste of time in this thread since the only examples being touted is the download of porn and movies :rolleyes:) but it is this last bit you have said that is so true and so disappointing especially when it comes to scientific based issues, once politicians and their supporters start to expound scientifically misleading and baseless information things are getting bad :sadeyes:. I don't want to live in a society that puts narrow minded politics before scientific rigour.

Mike

[Stardrifter_WA]

And so what if we are going round and round in circles, someone will eventually get dizzy and fall over.

My preferred method of falling over over is........ One Tequila, Two Tequila, Three Tequila, Floor, hic. :lol:

[LewisM]

Just to clear the air here a little - Strongman Mike (as distinct from that icy one), I still loves ya man. I could care less if you were Julia Gillard's hairdresser :)

Nah, seriously, I don't judge people by what political affiliation they are. Take my life as a weird example: my wife is COMMUNIST (SHOCK, HORROR!). Her Mum still runs as local Communist Party rep back in Russia. Having said that, my wife, like MOST Russians DESPISE Socialism (has to do with a certain little German with half a moustache!). So, there is a snowflakes chance is Hades she'll ever vote Labor.

As to your images getting few comments Mike, it's because you whine about the wind all the time :) ;) Ask Julia for a National Windbreak Scheme :) :rofl: There's some pertinent vision for you :)

This whole thread is much ado about bugger all, but it's still interesting to throw ideas, ideals, and thoughts back at each other. Be a very boring place if we all agreed on everything (save Peter, who is sitting on the fence ;) :) )

[strongmanmike]

Ah yes but not for much longer YAY! (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/building_wallaroo_observatory)

:question:...not sure Julia would be able to accommodate my request though, as the opposition would certainly block it :lol:

Mike

[Paul Haese]

Agreed Peter, it is very complicated indeed, we have been heading downward for some time though and that says they are trying to get some drive back into the economy. Savings rates of individuals are higher than they have been for years. That says a lot about confidence. It is a tough equation, the Chinese mineral resources was a major underpinning on spending but it should not have been relied on so heavily. It could not be sustained when other economies were not buying as many products that were made in China. I saw that in early 2009 as every country was trying to avoid a depression by pouring billions and trillions into the domestic economies. As for the US and Japan; well both have had massive debt levels for years. The piper must be paid at some point. Time will tell.....;)

Mike, dropping or rapid rising interest rates are not as good as stable interest rates. Having high rates stems growth and is designed to do that. The recession we had to have caused a lot of pain but many years of growth too, the longest in our history. Dropping interest rates likewise are design to encouraging spending. That has been happening for the last 3 years. The mistake I think was raising interest rates at the start of the GFC. These small increases put the brakes on very quickly and then it became apparent we needed to drop the rates again. Far too late really. So this is not about a political point of view at all. Spending lots of money necessitated in the board's opinion for raised interest rates and that a readjustment would quickly follow. Spending should have slowed sooner and rate stability would have occurred sooner. It is all about how money is distributed in the economy and what flow rate it occurs at. Very complicated and requires a careful hand. Right now Australia needs to stop spending via the government and go for a balance in the money in and money out. Some borrowing is good, but not too much.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hey Lewis, if you are referring to me, I am not a fence sitter, I definitely have my feet firmly planted in one paddock, much to my families disgust, and have done so all my adult life, whether it is right or wrong.

I just don't go around pretending that I actually know something about politics based on useless information or what others say, which is then peddled as fact without any real basis. Scientific minds do like their facts, after all.

Cheers Peter :)

[strongmanmike]

Probably a bit too simplified there Paul. Australia has many facets and needs but above all spending was required and plenty of it to prevent loss of jobs and a recession during the GFC, this is not Labor rhetoric and even the coalition agreed, it was just the amount in the end that they decided to draw a difference of opinion on and such is adversarial politics. At the end of the day Australia's debt is quite modest and definitely manageable and has been used largely to very good effect in my opinion (perhaps not yours but such is life)

All good :thumbsup:

Mike

[Hagar]

:thanx::rofl::P:D:lol:;):welcome::s crewy::confused2::help::shrug::sade yes::(:P

[strongmanmike]

I just reread your post here Lewis and I have to say that comment is really very saddening, to suggest the NDIS is a scam is really sad and simply not fair. It was long over due and almost unanimously supported, why there is a small % who don't support it is beyond me, same as the Aboriginal referendum in the 60's a few percent of people actually voted to keep indigenous people form having voting rights :shrug:

Mike

[strongmanmike]

:lol: Did you ever get that video Doug? ;)

[Paul Haese]

Not to put too fine a point on things here Mike, but I did study economics at Uni as part of my undergraduate degree and got a distinctions for the subjects I took. I know that it is complicated, more so than you might know yourself.

[LewisM]

Mike, I didn't say I don't support it - I said I can see where the true agenda is with it. Gillard's crying in session was just the icing on the show cake.

I think it has merit -perhaps it could be "rewritten" better (and I don't claim to know HOW).

Politics is more smoke and mirrors than facts and actions.

[LewisM]

I too had the misfortune of having to do economics (and accounting) for my first degree.

Hence why the wife does the banking and balancing :) I make it and spend it, she checks and balances.

[Kunama]

Just as well your beautiful wife does the banking Lewis, or you would have a million invested in telescopes but live on the street.

[LewisM]

Just hopefully a street in a dark country town... like Jindabyne... :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Really? Must be nice to have an insight into everything. :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

I think a quote from Mark Twain sums this thread up best: In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from others.

[LewisM]

Glad I am atheist then :) :) :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Yep, totally agree. I am surprised it has lasted this long. It should be closed.

The problem with threads like this is that people are drawn, like moths to a flame, mostly because of strong held beliefs, or indeed, lack thereof.

[LewisM]

Just a smattering of nothing really :)

[LewisM]

Sums it up precisely.

Funny how it is always the same hot heads.... me included naturally.

[FlashDrive]

let's all ' Kiss and Make Up ' ....:lol:

Flash.....:hi:

[Hagar]

This was what my original post was about but Mike Salway decided to use it to try and show me up. Very sad attempt Mike.

[LewisM]

Let's let sleeping dogs lay --- before they turn into mongrels :) :)

[clive milne]

There are (at least) two politicians in Australia who I believe are worth support.

Andrew Wilkie:
A former intelligence officer of the ONA (office of national assessments) - Australia's equivalent of the CIA. Andrew's honest and ethical nature is evidenced in the period of 2003 where he exposed the malfeasance of the Howard government at great personal expense to himself and his family. I highly recommend his biography 'Axis of Deceit', also the episode of "whistle blower' featuring him that you can access here and here:
http://www.dymocks.com.au/productdetails/ProductDetail.aspx?R=9780975076927# .UZX4F-2DoqM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8zhr8uQY18&list=PL9252402ECB3E7540
If nothing else, the above two links will give you an insight into the dichotomy that exists between the media's portrayal of Australian politics and the reality itself.
Andrew is currently the independent Member for Denison. His policies reflect a degree of pragmatism, intelligence and social conscience that is rare amongst his peers.

Secondly, Senator Scott Ludlam.
I had the pleasure to meat Scott at a function a few years ago. The thing that struck me above all else was his inclination to try and understand rather than impose his understanding. He is incredibly well researched and defers to science when he forms his opinion irrespective of whether that leeds to a conflict with his party's traditional values.
His stance on the Thorium fuel cycle is a study in intelligent pragmatism.

It is a shame that guys like this will never lead this country in the foreseeable future.

[Stardrifter_WA]

A Joke:

The prime minister, the treasurer and the foreign minister were aboard the 34 Squadron transport. They were flying over Melbourne.

The PM says, you know, I could throw a $100 dollar bill out the window and make someone really happy.

That's nothing says the treasurer, I could throw 10 $100 bills out the window and make 10 people happy.

Not to be outdone, the FM says, I could throw 100 $100 dollar bills out the window and make a hundred people happy.

The two relief pilots sitting up front, overhear this conversation and one turns to the other and says, bloody idiots, I could throw the three of them off the plane and make 22 million people happy.

[TrevorW]

About time someone closed this thread seems to be getting a little personal IMO

[rat156]

Well, with all the talk about the closing of the thread, I thought I'd better put my 2c worth in.

The problem with politics in Australia, and many other places in the world is that there is no real alternatives, no real differences in policies between the two major parties. The Left has drifted to the right so far as to be indistinguishable between former Conservative governments. Take the present government's policy on asylum seekers. How is the current policy any different from the Howard government's?

From the Assylum Seekers Reference Centre...


Makes you ashamed to be Australian. We are extremely lucky to live in the country we do, with all the freedoms we take for granted, yet we cannot treat these people in a humane manner.

And a Labour Government did this, just imagine what Tony "stop the boats" Abbot will do now.

Unfortunately this is merely a symptom of the failing of all governments to govern. When asked in the recent guns debate in the US what a politicians foremost responsibility was, a US senator replied "to get re-elected" , not to make policy, not to represent their constituents, but to keep his job. The TV show also pointed out that there was a time when Australian politicians actually stood up for what they believed in, highlighting the Conservative MPs who lost their seat as a result of the tightening of gun regulations in Australia, made me proud, I'd even vote for them, just because they stood up for their convictions.

Nowadays we don't have elections, we have popularity contests, the thinness of any parties election platform is mainly to blame. Howard's core and non-core promises was the thin end of the wedge for this, the Tampa and other boat people issues showed Governments that they could outright lie to the populace and get away with it. Why? Because there is usually no alternative.

Please don't lock the thread, it's interesting and there's not too much name calling.

Cheers
Stuart

[Capricorn1(Tom)]

Incompetence is one again demonstrated with labors fiscal policy. The debt they have generated is frightening. The party is a dinosaur and hopefully the election will extinct them to history. Unfortunately the liberal party always inherits the mess caused by labor. And yes I work in the real world I'm self employed. Cheers :D

[Peter Ward]

I agree.

But, unless the Oz culture of political apathy changes, sadly, we will continue get the politicians we deserve.

I suppose the upside of the NBN will be the possibility of a shift away from centralised media, and how people become informed....and Thorium is a great example...and while I don't agree with Ludlam's
take, at least he is aware of the cycle....I digress, media needs a few more Jon Stewarts (aka the Daily show) to lambast the hypocrisy and spin, as opposed to well reasoned debate.

[blink138]

ha ha "tom tom" seems to have lost his direction!!
pat

[strongmanmike]

:lol: Yep, I was a moth because I am pretty keen to see the NBN get up in its entirety (or even upgraded) so if Turnbull had come out and said we will implement the NBN in its entirety and perhaps with even better technology but do it cheaper and faster I would have been quite happy and never got involved with this thread at all. Instead he announced a downgrade of the system so it is less effective and long lasting with only (predicted!) small savings and roll-out speed up :shrug:...this to me is craaazy. Of course something less powerful will likely be cheaper but it will be less powerful :screwy:, to make an announcement that you will be making something very inferior so it is (perhaps) a little cheaper and (perhaps) delivered slightly faster shows no vision - simple.

Mike

[toc]

Charming :eyepop: You wouldnt be Alan Jones by any chance? :D

[Capricorn1(Tom)]

Pat Julie has lost her direction.....including ripping the guts (funding) out of our defence forces.

Cheers Tom :D

[AstralTraveller]

So in one post you complain about the level of debt and in the next you complain about the lack of funding to the military. The only way decreased debt and increased spending can be reconciled is by advocating increased taxes. Is that a raised hand I see?? :D

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Tim,

Read the top two words of that reply; A Joke. I put those two words there to ensure that one realised that it is a joke and NOT a political statement. There are a few areas where I would never make a joke about, but politics isn't one of them.

However, I apologise if that joke offends you and others, it was purely meant as humour, since the general consensus of the thread is that they should all be tossed out. I just took that a step further, a bloody big step too, at thirty thousand feet. :lol:

Frankly, I don't care who is in anyway, really, I don't, as it doesn't make one iota of difference, as we still end up with a politician, who will push their own agenda. Just as we would if we were in that position, in all likelihood, as most people have differing ideas. Just as StrongmanMike would with the NBN, for this is what he is passionate about. I'm not, so I disagree with him, but that is the best part about this country....I can, without fear or favour.

Just imagine having this type of discussion in North Korea, you would end up in the gulag.

Oh, hang, that's most of North Korea :lol: Yes, I do think that is funny , taken in context (it's called black or satirical humour), but I DO NOT think the actual situation is funny, far from it, it is very sad indeed.

That begs the question; Are we becoming so politically correct that we can no longer make jokes? That is supposed to be a part of our culture, after all.

The original joke actually named the people concerned, but I changed it to just titles, to protect the innocent or guilty, depending on your perspective, and it could mean anyone over the long history of Australian politics.

And, I will also add this, just because I disagree strongly with someone, doesn't mean I have to dislike them. Quite the contrary actually, I usually like them more for standing up for what they believe in, whether that is right or wrong in my view. Fortunately, I am psychologically mature enough to know the difference, as we all often hold strong views.

So let just forget about it and go and get pissed instead. :D

And no, I am not Alan Jones, I am not that well informed.

Cheers Peter

[strongmanmike]

You betchya :clap:! and not just me either, this thread is but a gnats R's hair collection of opinions, I just hope that all those that do indeed support a good powerful and fast NBN can look past other (mostly overblown or plain inaccurate) issues to vote for it...or it will be gone for the foreseeable future :scared:



Now there's an idea we can agree on :thumbsup:

** Oh and for the record, since Hagar has a problem with me using them, I use emoticons to try and better reflect the colour of my statements and opinions, which is never mean and nasty. I guess it is too easy (for some) to misinterpret it as vitriol but in my case it is almost always a lack there of. I clearly don't always succeed in getting my delivery style right but rest assured I am almost never angry and try to avoid personal vitriol about anything, all good solid debate :thumbsup:

Mike

[Hagar]

If this is the basis for voting for who or what is going to lead this country, God help us all. You are making Abbott appear inteligent.

A powerful internet? What about feeding our pensioners? Providing old aged care at affordable prices. These sort of things seem much more important than uploading 50MB images, well at least for me anyway.

Almost forgot them.:thumbsup::eyepop::thumbsup::c onfused2::thanx::question::shrug::m ad2::sadeyes::):D:welcome:

[strongmanmike]

Making it personal yet agaiiiin Doug?? :doh: geeez, come'on man lighten up :shrug: I'm just not interested in writing an essay on all the reasons for my vote..is that ok with you? :rolleyes: For me the current NBN is a good piece of policy and should be supported, think I have made that quite clear now :question: :lol:

Mike

[Stardrifter_WA]

With a statement like that Hagar, you are showing your ignorance of the facts. Yes, Tony Abbott appears to be a fool in front of the camera, with that I can agree.

I don't have an opinion as to whether or not he can run the country based on his media appearance. What I do know however, is that Tony Abbott is a very intelligent man. For a start he has a Bachelor of Economics, a Bachelor of Law and is a Rhodes Scholar with a Masters in Arts. This doesn't include his other accomplishments, which are also fairly impressive. And if you don't think that is intelligence, what do you think is an adequate level of intelligence? Furthermore, Julia Gillard is no slouch either and has a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Laws. Does this mean they have the qualifications to run a country, I don't know, as what qualifications DO you need to run a country? I haven't got a clue.

So, before making such sweeping statements in trying to prove your point, please check your facts first.

And no, I am not advocating a position here, other than to say people make such sweeping statements without verification of facts or indeed provide any real understanding based on empirical evidence to support their position.

Cheers Peter

[AndrewJ]

What is the cost of anything that big.
( And its a pi$$ in the bucket relative to future returns )
I agree with Mike, we need to at least get the fibre in the ground in a consistent and managed way whilst we can still afford it.
The electronics at the ends can be changed/upgrade as time/money permits, but at least get the basic "cabling" done as an integrated system.

As an example ( referencing other peoples bugbears ie roads )
For those in Melb, I live near where the Sth eastern Feeway
cuts through Burke, Toorak and Tooronga rds.
18 odd years ago when Kennet got rid of the traffic lights so he could get more money for the tollway tender, he only bridged the Feeway.
There is a railway very close to the Feeway, but to save money, they didnt bridge that at the same time.
Now we cant afford to not fix it, as its stuffing up traffic and trains,
but we cant afford to fix it, cos its now too expensive
and will disrupt too much.
Shoulda just done it right first time.

Andrew

[AstralTraveller]

Channeling Maxwell Smart: If only he'd used his intelligence for niceness instead of evil!

[Hagar]

Just because he has a bucket full of scolastic awards does not really stand him on a thrown to run a country. He has dificulty getting through any public appearnces without stuffing up.
As it stands at the moment he is probably the biggest bonus the Liberal party could give to the Labor party.

As for my vote, undecided as yet. Labour party lies and broken promises makes it hard to vote Labour even though I have always voted Labour in the past. Take a look at the oposition, enough said. Minor party or independant, couldn't lower myself that low, a vote for any minor party is just a final vote for one of the above major parties anyway.

OOPS nearly forgot. :rofl::eyepop::lol:;):P:):D:shrug:: help::thanx:

[Stardrifter_WA]

:sadeyes:

Oh Hagar, you didn't disappoint, pretty much the emotive response I expected, with little in the way detail or facts to support your position.

What is required to run a country properly then? Everyone would probably have a different opinion regarding that question, so how do you determine who is right? But, that is the very nature of politics and why I don't make sweeping statements about this person or that, this party or that, as inevitably I would be wrong in someone else's eyes, or look silly simply because I hadn't checked my facts.

I am not a swinging voter, never have been. What I do hold is a very firm view based purely on ideology and not based on particular characters, as inevitably they just come and go. If that ideology is changed or becomes corrupted then I may change my viewpoint. Furthermore, I do not try and convince others of my ideological position, it is mine, others can determine their own course, they don't need my help. That is the fundamental principle of democracy.

So, unless someone comes along with a real vision for the country, then my position may never change, because I doubt that will ever happen. And, how would I know anyway?

Oh dear.....I think I am getting too old or too cynical to care anymore. :sadeyes:

Cheers Peter

[GrahamL]

What happened to the third comandment ?


3. Posting Topics
Please avoid topics about global warming, race, politics or religion

and the 11 pages tolerant of thrashing it?

[Hagar]

Can we really afford it at this point? It is a huge expenditure for a very small percentage of the population who in a lot of cases choose to live where they live.
I choose to live where I am and put up without town gas being available but I don't see anyone trying to get gas to my house. The answer is buy bottled gas at many,many times the price of town gas. Heat with electricity which is more expensive than town gas.
I fail to see the need for an internet connection at the speeds that are being thrown around. I manage quite well on ADSL and managed OK on dial up before that.

These things are nice to have but wont keep you warm in winter, put food on the table, take care of our old people, provide onging work for our youth but might just get a vote or two which might equate to a pollie and his hangers ons pay rise.

Best I remember. :P:lol::eyepop::hi::thanx:

[blink138]

if people can keep a civil tongue then there is no harm, and I for one am enjoying it
it is amazing that so many like minded people are so different ideologically!
pat

[AndrewJ]

Gday Hagar



Could we afford Myki ( now approx 3% the cost of the NBN :shrug:)
Could we afford the Desal plant???
Can we afford the NDIS????



The NDIS is going to chew through more money than 10 NBNs
esp when the lawyers get involved challenging what
someone is entitled to.
Im not disabled and no one near to me is, so is that a reason for me to say its no good and i dont think its good?????

At least the NBN will provide a framework to move forwards on.
If everthing had to be cost justified in the short term,
and provide a 15-30% return on investment before starting
nothing would get done.

Some things should just be done.

Andrew

[Stardrifter_WA]

Sorry Doug, but that is very narrow minded thinking.

StrongmanMike is right about the need for fast broadband, although I don't really care, but what he failed to mention and what you have failed to take into account is the opportunities that a fast broadband service will bring.

What opportunities, I hear you say? Well, precisely, I don't know, as my crystal ball is broken, but I do know that the Internet has brought lots of opportunities to companies and individuals, so it isn't a stretch to say that a fast network would bring greater opportunities, particularly in the area of education and medicine. Take for instance your ability to search for and order astro gear from overseas. Yes, there is good and bad with this, but it illustrates the opportunities that offered to OS companies to reach broader markets. Ebay, has given individuals lots of opportunities too.

We simply don't know what opportunities and new ideas that will spring from the fast broadband. I remember when the first PC started appearing the general consensus then was that it would do everyone out of a job, the paperless office, etc. It indeed put some people out of a job, but created many more. As with all advances in technology it brings opportunities and its problems as well. The problem with our society is we expect the Government to do everything for us, but it is up to the individual to take responsibility for themselves. For instance, I have a severe disability, although it isn't obvious, and was told by all the specialist and rehab that I will never work again, but I do, as I went out and found a job I could actually do and I am very successful at it. Fortunately, I am strong willed and thus motivated to overcome the difficulties.

I do see a need for fast broadband, and although I am at odds with StrongmanMike on its implementation, I am all for a fast Internet. Whether I see it in my lifetime is questionable, again, my crystal ball is broken.

Yes, your points are valid to a degree, but, if you take that narrow minded view, you only create short span solutions. You have to create the infrastructure to provide the long term solutions that will be able to provide the necessary resources to look after the vulnerable in our society.

[AstralTraveller]

I think a large part of our problem is that we are supposed to elect someone, or at least a very few people who have the wisdom and knowledge to know what to do on every issue, have the good of absolutely everyone at heart and are totally self-sacrificing in the pursuit of noble ends. Well Aragon son of Arathorn may have had these qualities but in the real world they just don't exist. I'd like to see people have a much more direct influence over decisions than just voting for tweedle-dum or tweedle-dummer every 3-4 years. That of course put a lot of responsibility on the general population to be informed but I see that as achievable. There is certainly a lot of people on this forum who would take the time to work through issues thoroughly if they thought it meant they could influence the course of events.

Another issue is that the size of the public sector relative to the private sector means that governments are a bit like a tug boat trying to control a bulk carrier. Sure they can push it around a bit, especially if it agrees to be moved, but if it sets a course and goes full steam ahead the poor old tug will just be dragged along. The private sector is motivated strictly by profit. Social good (which, yes, does occur) is just a by-product, but so is social harm (which also occurs in spadefuls). I've long since decided that we need to fundamentally change the structure of society rather than just squabbling over party politics. Yes, it does mater to some extent who is in power but really it's a bit like debating which way to face the raft as you approach a massive waterfall.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Good points David. Maybe one way this could be improved is through 4 year fixed terms, instead of the ability of Government triggering an election when it best suites them. Another solution would be to get rid of preferential voting, where a party can get in even though they didn't get most of the primary vote, that simply sucks! Third and final point, get rid of compulsory voting, where donkeys vote because they have to (well actually they don't have to vote as such, just have to roll up and get their name ticked off), but they do and have no real idea who they are voting for anyway. If pollies had to EARN our vote, then things may be different.

Sadly, this won't happen.

[Hagar]

Peter, How is this narrow minded. You are allowed to have your opinion and in the event of it differing from mine, my opinion becomes narrow minded. I just don't see the need for the NBN and so far you haven't been able to quantify a reason for it either. If I say that in my opinion we can't afford it I am wrong because your crystal ball is dirty. Come ON.

Unfortunately at the moment we can't even afford the crystal ball let alone the expenditure of nice to have solutions to problems we are yet to discover. We are all in a position of debt and if the media is correct it is something like $14000 per adult Australian.
Where do we draw the line and surrender to the fact we as a country just can't keep spending what we don't have, spend only to support ourselves and be mindfull that at some point we have to repay the debt.

Again if the media is correct the take up rate for NBN is quite low and the cost is significant. I can send data faster than I can create it on ADSL so why would I bother upgrading any further. Crystal ball stuff again. I am about to retire and am afraid the only crystal balls out there will be mine and they will get some sort of a kicking over our countries debt into the future. I hope to be fully self funded into the future and cost you all nothing more than a smile but believe me I am worried, I have taken a couple of hits already and think the crystal ball is cracked already.

:lol::eyepop::lol::thanx::confused2 ::sadeyes::shrug::eyepop::lol:

Remembered this time..

[strongmanmike]

Have I mentioned that the full fibre to the home NBN is the way to go and worth voting for? :question:

:lol: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thum bsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thum bsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thum bsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thum bsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thum bsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thum bsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup: just for grumpy Doug (meant nicely)

[toc]

No real offense taken here Peter :) Honestly they are not worth getting upset about. Apologies if I came across as someone who is that easily offended.

Ill drink a beer for you :thumbsup:

[Hagar]

So many times that your throat must be sore.

:cloudy::stupid::cloudy::bashcomp:: bashcomp::bashcomp::bashcomp::jawdr op::jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop::figh t::fight::nerd::nerd::nerd::nerd::c ool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

Grumpy? Who says I'm grumpy. Leave me alone, I' rubbing my crystal ballso I can see what comes next.

[Deeno]

Here's a vision!

Next really severe drought we might totally run out of water but, we will be able to watch all about it in full definition on the tele!

[strongmanmike]

Or the authorities will be able to transfer massive schematic diagram files in a hurry, have instant high definition video conferencing all around the country to bring the best minds face to face in real time instead of having to fly them around, information will travel faster and decisions will be able to be made faster in emergencies etc etc

The LHC needs it, The SKA needs it, Australia needs it COME'ON!!! :clap:

Hey the moon landing was pretty cool in crappy grainy B&W wasn't it?...imagine what it would have been like in Colour high definition...ahhh ;)

Besides if we can reduce our carbon emissions, droughts will be less of an issue, if we don't they will become worse and worse, the science tells us this and the World is moving in the direction of addressing this as Australia has = more reasons to influence your vote in Sept :thumbsup: :hi: :lol:


Mike

[Stardrifter_WA]

You don't see the need for broadband and at a personal level neither do I for that matter, but I don't argue that just because I don't need it the money should be spent elsewhere, that there are more pressing issues (and there always are), just because it has no benefit for me. That is a narrow minded view, sorry Doug.

I haven't researched this matter, as I have no real interest in it, and therefore cannot give definitive reasons, however, a quick search of the Internet has abundant articles as to why it should be built.

Here is an excerpt from one such article, and it isn't even about Australia, it is international in scope, so we shouldn't lag behind:

"Survey respondents foresee the main benefits of ultra-fast broadband as including future strategy, staff productivity, staff location and customer relationship management. Around 70 percent of respondents said they would consider investing in collaborative tools, voice-over IP and cloud-based applications and services to leverage the benefits of ultra-fast broadband." full article here: http://www.med.govt.nz/sectors-industries/technology-communication/fast-broadband/business

I agree that it is likely most people have debt, but "we are all in a position of debt" is an assumption Doug, sorry. I don't have any debt, and haven't done for a long time. And no, I am not rich either, far from it. I learned to managed money well, and I learned the hard way, in my early twenties. If I cannot afford to pay for something immediately, or quickly, if I had to borrow money, then I simply don't buy it. I never borrowed more than I could pay back quickly.

Whilst there is a significant amount of debt in Australia, there are a significant amount of deposits too. As at July 2012, which is the last figure I saw, Australian banks had deposits totally $16 billion, according to the RBA. So, not everyone is broke then.

[Stardrifter_WA]

I didn't think you did, just needed to clarify to be sure. Some people can't take a joke. I sometimes forget that. Won't stop though. :D

[Deeno]

By then the population will have out stripped our inadequate electricity supplies to make the NBN go!:eyepop:
Oh no, we're all going to die.:confused2:
If only we had a telephone:P
Don't vote for this Government. Your very life might depend on it!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[AndrewJ]

No we wont.
All the electricity will be sent to the Desal Plant :D
and we wont be allowed to use it.
Im sure with our new smart meters, they can
just turn off our supply as needed

( How cynical can one get:rolleyes: )

Andrew

[Stardrifter_WA]

Great, then there will be no power left to run the street lights, yahh!!!!!!

I don't have a problem with that, just put in a solar system to use during the day and observe all night......sounds good to me. :D

[Capricorn1(Tom)]

I'm out of this Post.....we all should get together and have a 4x (that's a beer for the southerners)...cheers Tom :D

[Hagar]

I gather you are saying that important issues should be shelved to allow the NBN for yet unknown true gains. Pretty short sighted.

New Zealand think Ultra fast broadband is a requirement so we have to follow suit. I can just see the headlines now Australian jumps off cliff because New Zealander thought it was a good idea.

I can do all these things with ADSL now, I have used VOIP for many years now. No problems.

I am glad you are like me and owe no one a cent. It's a great feeling isn't it. I bet the smile would quickly walk off your face if your savings were taken to pay or help pay the national debt. I recall the street protests and violence in Grease when the gov there looked like emptying bank accounts and that was just the thought of it. With any luck all our savings might just pay the national debt. Bugger it just went up while I was typing. Another tax will fix that.
Better give the politicians and their helpers a pay rise. Again.

It really is hard not to be cynical about politics especially when the Government we have didn't have a majority to do anything anyway. I am sure that is about to change though.

We are expected to hold these people in high esteem but after watch them on the news tonight and contemplating what the slanging match between now and September will be like, perhaps we should lock them all up until after the election.

:eyepop::eyepop: :eyepop::eyepop: :eyepop::eyepop: :eyepop::eyepop: :eyepop::eyepop: :eyepop::eyepop: :eyepop::eyepop:

Just for you Mike. XOXOXO

I think I've had enough as well. My head is sore.

[Kunama]

I would think the slanging match won't be much different to the preceding 12 pages ...................:poke:

Now we just need Kevin07 to get rid of the backstabbing redhead and Malcolm Turnbull to oust the marathon man and we might actually have a battle worth watching. :fight:

I just wish I had access to faster internet here in Jindabyne ....... it must be great to have fast ADSL in the cities!!!! :bashcomp:

..... and lets get these interest rates back up to 17% :cool:

[Stardrifter_WA]

No, not at all.

What I am saying is, that for Australia to remain competitive it must maintain its infrastructure, and part of that infrastructure is its telecommunications network. And that is lacking, as there is still a significant copper network, that is slowly failing. And, on this, I do know what I am talking about, as I used to work for Telstra, at least for a couple years, in their corporate test centre. It isn't an efficient network and takes a lot of work to maintain. So, there actually is a need to replace it, so yes, I do think the NBN should be built, just don't agree with the chosen design, as it is going to take too long. Yes, I do think there are other important issues. Can we solve all of them? No, we can't, no matter how much money you throw at them. That is the world we live it.Besides, taking the narrow view in trying to solve all the immediate problems without taking into account the wider implications would amount to financial suicide.

However, if we do not maintain our competitiveness, we will not conduct business and generate income in an efficient manner and then we won't be able to repay our debt, and I don't even want to contemplate the results of that. It is an increasingly competitive and connect world out there and if we want to be part of it, we must maintain the technology for that to happen. And, it was Cyprus, not Greece than the Government put a levy on bank deposits. And, you may be surprised to learn that the Government here is contemplating the seizure of inactive accounts. Read here; http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-26/banks-warn-customers-government-set-to-take-their-money/4541116

I am not trying to win an argument here, as there really is no argument anyway. I actually agree with most of what you say, however, I take a wider view, and the issues are complex, no doubt about it.

And, by the way, I don't believe half of what is written in the press and doubt the other half anyway, as they just tell you what they want you to believe. Oh, I am such a cynic. I don't watch the news on television, as it is often biased and only read the ABC and BBC websites, as they are reasonably credible sources. What I do do, is verify facts, preferably with 'primary information' sources or with reputable 'secondary information' sources, such as the Australia Bureau of Statistics, the Reserve Bank of Australia, World Bank, United Nations etc. You may also be interested to know that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) website is also quite useful. I do not use one single source but verify facts through a number of sources.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Oh, Matt....you must be a man who has money invested.

Unlike a lot of people, I don't have to worry about a mortgage, so I don't like to see the interest rates drop, I lose. :sadeyes:

As always, there are winners and losers.

[Stardrifter_WA]

You might be interested to know this.

There are only 4,926,500 owner occupied houses in Australia, according to the last figures available from the ABS. What is more interesting is that 69% of these are owned outright. Since 1966 the home ownership has doubled.

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/946A456AE7DA949DCA25773700169C7B

[Stardrifter_WA]

Saw this on an office wall.

The objective of all dedicated employees should be to analyse thoroughly all situations, anticipate all problems prior to their occurrence, have answers for these problems and more swiftly to solve these problems when called upon.

------------- HOWEVER ------------

When you are up to your arse in crocodiles, it’s difficult to remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp!!!!!!


It sums up the need to consider the long term objective.

[Hagar]

Peter for someone who likes to quote statistical information ( What I do do, is verify facts, preferably with 'primary information' sources or with reputable 'secondary information' sources, such as the Australia Bureau of Statistics, the Reserve Bank of Australia, World Bank, United Nations etc. You may also be interested to know that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) website is also quite useful. I do not use one single source but verify facts through a number of sources.), your words not mine, perhaps you had better take another look at the figures you are quoting here. Slightly less than 50% are owned outright.2.478M of 4.926M.
The 69% refers to the percentage of total dwellings that are owner occupied. I hope you are more diligent with your other quoted statistics.

:help::help::help::help:

[Deeno]

Thats the spirit!
Finally, after eight pages a post that can be taken seriously.
Imagine that, galaxy hunting from the backyard. How cool!

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of your 16" lightbridge?

[sophie]

Ha! My grandmother ran as a Communist candidate in Melbourne in the late 40s. To add insult to injury (for the era) she was a single mother who converted to Catholic in a Protestant area as well :lol:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Optically, for the price I think it is actually quite good. From a mechanical point of view, it simply sucked. It was hard to position and to track, but then I added the JMI track-n-train and because that had roller bearings, it made all the difference, very smooth and it tracks well. That then created a small issue with tube balance when using Ethos eyepieces, but have since added some tube weights and solved that problem. Added a GL laser and a Stellarvue RA finder and now it is all good. I like it. Oh, I added some solid rubber locking wheels and I just roll it out of the shed and I am observing within a few minutes. Sweet! :D

Cheers Peter

[Stardrifter_WA]

I bow to your superior intellect. Doesn't alter my main points though, so I concede the win to you. :sadeyes:

[JB80]

Still I wonder how many of those home owners/mortgages date from 10 years ago or earlier. It's fine if you got in early I guess but these days it ludicrously unaffordable unless you have bags of money. And it's not easy for renters either.

There are a lot of people out there who should never got given a mortgage to begin with and certainly the government should never of thrown money at them to do so, many, if they don't default will be seriously advanced in their years before they can claim ownership. I'd like to see them fix the housing bubble sensibly before it crashes like the Spanish one.

We can't ride the mining boom forever, better hope there is a good plan b when that stagnates.
A proper national high speed rail connecting all major cities would be a tremendously huge undertaking.

[Stardrifter_WA]

As Doug pointed out, I was in error, and I have no problem admitting that, however, I was actually quoting from two ABS figures, from the link shown, which was 2006, prior the 2008 GFC, and from another ABS figure that was very recent. You are right though, as a lot of those mortgages are more than ten years old. After the GFC a lot of people did pay down debt.

However, I still made the error by using two ABS disparate graphs without really thinking about it, which is my bad. Mind you, if I had been writing a report, I would, of course, double and tripled check my figures matched. But in the heat of an of a debate I made the cardinal sin, not checking that the figures match, and end up a little foolish. Not the or last time time, I am sure.

Oh well, you win some and you lose some, so I have no problem bowing out the debate graceful, as I am not a person who has to win and all cost.

Managed to get a few hours observing in, in between some cloud, so off to bed I go.

[JB80]

I wasn't trying to pull you up on it, honest. :)

It is just something that has been on our minds here of late, in trying to decide the pro's and con's of coming back to Oz and the current housing market is a huge factor in that. In the end Spain won out but I'd never want to see Australia in the mess they are in right now in Spain.
I genuinely think if it isn't sorted out sensibly then a fall could be on the cards which would be terrible for those invested in it but there are more factors than I understand to possibly make a fair assesment. All I know is it's not attractive to buy in Australia at the moment and coupled with rising cost of living it's crippling to those(like my mother) who are on the wrong end of the stick.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Jarrod,

I did realise that, and in fact, it was your comment that made me realise my mistake. But that just underpins my point that you just can't believe everything you hear or read, as people make mistakes and the wrong information is circulated. Also, I made another cardinal sin, and one I had mentioned earlier and that is people can get facts to suit their position. Although that wasn't my intent, I just spent two minutes on the ABS website, looked at two pages, both from two time periods, and mixed up the facts without verification or analyse. It really wasn't intentional and I made a foolish error. Wouldn't be the first time and I am sure it most be the last.

I openly admit that I do make mistake, and have no problem doing so. But, I will say this, if it has anything to do with decisions related to investments, exchange rates etc, I thoroughly analyse and check facts. Case in point, I am going to the US in July for six weeks (to go to Stellafane) and was monitoring the exchange rates. I monitored my term deposit, whilst saving for this trip and kept moving it around to get the best rates at maturity. Many people don't do this and just let it roll over at a lower rate. Bugger that, I made it work for me. I had to constantly analyse the market to determine the period the term deposit. Sometimes I got it right, sometimes I didn't, but overall I managed to built it to the point I could just go. All paid for now, just waiting for July to get here. :sadeyes: (are we there yet?) I now what relativity really means. As Einstein said, "Sit next to a pretty girl for an hour, and it will seem like a minute; sit on a hot stove for a minute, it will seem like an hour. Now that's relativity!

I am far from being an expert, but based on my analysis, gut feeling and a little bit of luck, I bought the US currency needed for my six week trip, the day before it started to drop and got a 'mid rate' of 1.013. The mid rate is actually what you can buy it for and not the publicly designated rate which was about 1.037. So, I was very happy that I bought when I did. :D

Cheers Peter

[Retrograde]

I agree. Whilst I'm a born again noob when it comes to amateur astronomy after not being active for 20 years (combination of light-polluted skies & inability to get away on weekends due to weekend/shift work commitments etc) I've been interested in astronomy & science most of my life. I got my science degree in the 80's before joining the IT industry (partly due to lack of opportunities in science at that time) where I still work today. It's only the last few years when science & technology started being misrepresented for political reasons that I became more engaged with politics.

What many people also haven't realised about the NBN is that it will make a modest profit in the longer term (despite being too marginal for most businesses to invest in) so it doesn't actually cost anything other than an up-front investment. As for it being at the expense of things like roads and rail I'm sure everyone knows about Labor's record investment in road & rail projects right? Oh that's right they don't get reported on so I guess they mustn't actually exist. :thumbsup:

[marki]

I have 3 questions.

1. How will the NBN super fast information highway help us dig up minerals faster, do we just run a cable to the big dozer?

2. Is it a good idea to vote for a political party based on a single issue for example the NBN?

3. Where's my banjo ?

Mark

[Stardrifter_WA]

Mark, that is an easy answer, so why bother asking the question? :D

[marki]

There was some other stuff under the sentence you quoted but it got deleted :D.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Oh dear :sadeyes: You saying naughty stuff :question:

:lol:

[TrevorW]

If you lot donated the equivalent monetary value of your wasted time and effort in posting here to my casue I'd have enough $$$ to fix MS.:question:

:P;):thumbsup:

[Stardrifter_WA]

What? Are you trying to guilt us into supporting your cause now :question: If so, poor form Trevor :sadeyes: Ask, by all means, but stop short at the guilt trip, please. Maybe that is not the way you meant it to come across, but that is the way it appeared to me, right or wrong. Most here would be aware of your other thread and if they wanted to support it, they would have done so.

Yes, your cause is worthy, there is no question about that, and on several occasions I have indeed supported it and still do. I still support a number of causes, like most people, unfortunately, there is only so much that people can support.

Another thing, it is only your opinion that this was a waste of time and effort, and on that basis, so is all other discourse then?

[strongmanmike]

In case any of you remaining doubting Thomas types missed Sunrise yesterday...this is a short and easy to understand over view of why you should vote for the best version of the NBN!!

...or you can just use the carrier pigeon I guess..?

NBN explained simply (http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/watch/17236769/impact-of-the-nbn/)

:)

[Deeno]

Nice little story from the ABC:question::question: ..what the...! You do flog commercial stations when its convenient:lol::lol:

I thought the eight lane freeway would be a good idea:thumbsup:. Shame the current government lacks the vision and guts to back schemes that would really enrich our lives for the future. Simple commodities like water, power,self sustaining food supply, transport, health:shrug:.

[marki]

Not much quality in my posts of late Trevor so it usually doesn't take me too long, afraid you would only get a few cents from me. The lab tech at work has just been diagnosed with MS, not very nice at all.

Mark

[TrevorW]

Cheers Mark, at least some people here have a sense of humour and those that figure I'm pushing a guilt trip maybe I've hit a sore point.

The fund has collected over a $1000 so far and thanks to the 3 people from this forum who have donated.

As you know this is a cause I have first hand knowledge about, and if guilt is the only way to get people to help out, then so be it, you'd think I was asking for blood, but as is often the case when it comes to charity people turn the other way and hide their wallets.

Regardless the debate here seems totally pointless in that the inevitable will happen some may believe that a change of Govt will fix the problem but personally I doubt it will, and as Mike often points out we live in a lucky country and I believe we will continue to do so for a very long time regardless of the political party at the helm but if we don't, we can only blame ourselves for it.

I'll get off my soapbox now. :thumbsup: