The Federal budget, it wasn't all bad

[strongmanmike]

Eeeexactly!...so a vote for a strong NBN is very worthwhile :thumbsup:

Good luck with the charity work Trevor :)

Mike

[Stardrifter_WA]

No sore point Trevor, sorry to disappoint you. You have had an entire thread on this subject and it is obvious your passionate about this, so that being the case, I think you meant what you said. You may try and hide behind what you said as being humour, but I don't see anything at all funny about what you stated, as it isn't a funny subject. Not at all. I have a good sense of humour, but there are a few subjects I won't go near and that is one of them.

I support causes that I am affected by along with others, including MS, so if you are trying to infer something, you're wrong. I will continue to support causes, just don't like be badgered into do so, as it simply puts people off. I discovered that when I was involved in fundraising, which I have done a number of times in my life.

Sadly, with cost of living pressures people are finding it harder to give to charity and other causes, and charities are particularly under extreme pressure right now. Unfortunately, it is a sign of the times.

So, don't try and guilt me by saying it is a sore point. That just doesn't work.

[Larryp]

:)
The NBN is a worthwhile project, Mike, but so are many other things. The big problem with this country is we are over-governed. I remember reading in "The Financial Review'' back in 1985 that we have 41% of our workforce employed in government and para-government jobs, ie non-productive jobs, compared to the USA with 21%.This ratio is probably much worse now.
If we reduced our level of government, and hence the number of government employees, we could accomplish so much more.
We have both state and federal depts. of education and health, for instance-we should eliminate 1 level and that would save us a fortune!
That money could be spent on other things.:)

[rat156]

Like all the (now unemployed) public servants...

What an amazingly myopic point of view, the above statement states that ALL public servants are non-productive. Have a look at the state of play in Qld, Campbell Newman has ripped the guts out of the public service. That's working out really well :sadeyes:

More Alan Jones type rhetoric, i.e. opinionated utterly uninformed rubbish.

Cheers
Stuart

Disclaimer, yes, I work for the DoD.

[Larryp]

Non-productive in the sense that they do not create wealth for the country-they only administer the country. And I stand by my statement we are over-governed.:)

[AstralTraveller]

Aren't hospital staff, teachers, fire, police, many road and traffic workers, universities, CASA, AQIS and the military, government or para-government? To say they 'only administer' is a misrepresentation.

[Larryp]

The people you mention, David, come under essential services, and they don't just "administer" They would be there under any form of government.
I am talking about the huge bureaucracies that administer everything. For instance, we have federal and state education depts., and federal and state health depts. We should eliminate all the duplication and we would save a lot of money, which could then be allocated to those you have mentioned.
Governments love to create bureaucracies, and unfortunately we have three tiers of government doing this.:)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Laurie,

I agree with your sentiments and originally understood what you meant. Yes, we have three tiers of government, but are you proposing that we eliminate the state governments and hand that control to local councils? That is exactly what the federal government probably have in mind, with the idea of having a referendum at the next election to recognise local government, in the constitution. Will this lessen bureaucracy, I doubt it. It just moves it around.

That would be a step too far, as local government often appear to be a law unto themselves now. Politicising local government would be an absolute disaster, as it would remove state rights and marginalise state government. I have had so many problem with local governments, as they flirt the law and impose their own restrictions. If it wasn't for the state executive, I would have had to take expensive legal action.

Right now, I am being bullied by a council, and bullying by its definition is the use of force or coercion, and have very little in the way of stopping them. I won't go into details on this as there is likely to be a court case, and it is likely to get messy, as it also involves state government. The council will just do what they want to do and if you don't like it, take it to court. This is an expensive exercise and they know that and use that against you by saying that they will do everything they can to fight it. Problem is, the money they use is ratepayers money, so they don't care. Just put up rates to compensate. :sadeyes: Frankly, I am sick of rate hikes. :mad2:

If councils get that recognition, god help us all. The federal government have had two referendums before with an overwhelming no vote, from memory, and they will keep trying until they get the yes answer they want. Leave the system as it is, it sort of works. Now I will hear howls of derision, if so, please provide an example where it works better before doing so.

Do you really want Canberra dictating terms and doling out money directly to councils, those councils that support a particular party. Not me.

[AstralTraveller]

It's true there is wastage in the public service (just as there is in business) but I suspect it is less then what many people fear. When I was in Dept of Social Security in the early 80s the entire administrative cost (capital, consumables and wages) was 1% of the operating budget. Considering how much farnarkelling could be involved in paying a pittance I think that was pretty good.

What I saw then (and what I see in a different way where I am now) was how much money was wasted in an attempt to save money. A simple one was the under-supply of application or change of circumstance forms (the sort of thing clients had to fill in to get on benefit or change address/number of kids/income etc). When we (often!) ran out and Sydney central had no more in stock we would have to photocopy some. The cost per copy on a photocopier (the old wet type) must have been at least 10x the cost of printing, probably closer to 100x, and then someone stood next to the copier as it turned out about 10 sheets/minute. These days my sister, a nurse with 30 years experience and in charge of wards, can spend up to half a shift on the phone trying to arrange a casual for the next shift because they are 'saving' on clerical support staff. :screwy: This does affect patient care and someday, somewhere will cost a life. :mad2:

[rat156]

Laurie,

These so called "huge bureaucracies" that you mention, how big are they? How much of the total Health and Education budgets do they consume? I'm afraid that you've been misinformed somewhere along the way. If Health and Education are anything like Defence, and they are worse off, of that I know, then there is very little in their budgets for unnecessary duplication.

Perhaps you fail to realise that there are both State and Federal implications for Health and Education, which are better served by having a Federal dept which looks after Federal Education issues, and a State one that looks after State issues. The only alternative is to have an only Federal approach, which would necessitate the expansion of the Federal Ed Dept enormously, it may even have to set up an office in each State.

Undoubtedly there is waste in the public service, I see it every day, but there's waste in the private sector as well, I saw that when I worked there, I believe that the larger the business the more perceived waste there is, but as a percentage of turnover it becomes smaller. The Governments (all put together) are easily the largest business in the country, so waste may seem to be huge, but in relation to the overall scheme it's tiny.

This is just Government bashing, like the Shock Jocks and their ilk want you to do. Do some research before sinking the boot into the Government (Federal or State, either party), know something more than platitudes and headlines before slashing the public service and putting many hard working people in the dole queue. KNOW what it means to all sectors of society before casting your vote on September 14.

If you're in doubt ask any of the members here that work or worked in Health in QLD to see what casting the wrong vote will do to both Health and Education, not to mention the NDIS, NBN etc.

Cheers
Stuart

[Larryp]

Stuart
I have worked in the health field all my working life, and in recent years I have seen more and more UNNECESSARY intrusion by government into the everyday workings of private practice-I am glad I am retiring completely at the end of June, because I am sick and tired of paperwork.
For instance in NSW, we have a state government voucher scheme for needy people to obtain dental treatment. The government already has my Dental Board registration, and hence my ADA membership and professional indemnity insurance, which are necessary for registration in the first place.
The health dept then asks for copies of all these documents, a copy of my drivers licence and even my passport, for god's sake!-to allow me to treat these patients, and this is to be done every year!
Try and tell me this isn't a complete waste of time and energy!-just some tin-pot bureaucrat doing some empire-building.
As for your comment about Queensland Health, how many bureaucrats lost their jobs compared to front-line workers?
As for shock jocks, I'm afraid I never listen to the radio and would not know what they are saying, nor do I care-I just go on my own observations.
In my original post, I mentioned a Financial Review article from 1985, stating some 41% of our tax-paying workforce work in government and para-goverment jobs, compared to some 21% in the U.S. Why the big disparity?
Cheers
Laurie:)

[Larryp]

Hi Peter
I am not advocating doing away with state goverments, and certainly not advocating recognition of local councils.
I just feel there is a lot of federal/state overlap and the whole system could be streamlined and made more efficient.
I was hoping when we had the referendum on becoming a republic, that the pollies might take the opportunity the restructure our political system and make it more streamlined-alas, it wasn't to be.
Cheers
Laurie:)

[rat156]

Respectfully, 1985 isn't 2013, a lot of things have changed in 28 years!

Have you seen the US health system? Surely you wouldn't wish that on us?

I think we need some more up-to-date statistics on this before anything meaningful could be discussed. Respectfully, I don't think the Fin Review is the best source of unbiased statistics.

Cheers
Stuart

[Stardrifter_WA]

A streamlined government.....yeah right! Like that is ever going to happen Laurie :lol:

But I suppose, one can dream. Until they put a tax on it and employ more people to collect it. :rofl:

[rat156]

All the ones I know were front line workers, I'm sure that there have been cuts in middle management as well, but if they had a job to do (which most would have), then their job is now being done by someone else, a lot of the time by a "contractor", which don't show up on public service jobs, but get paid more (usually). This is where real waste occurs, not in a "fat" public service, which I really don't think is the actual case.

Cheers
Stuart

[Larryp]

You are right, there, Peter:rofl:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Laurie,

I am almost positive that the Government have a lonely pathetic person locked in a dark dreary office somewhere thinking up ways to tax us more. And, probably only let them out for sunshine when they come up with new ways to screw the taxpayer.

So, I better not give them new ideas then. :lol:

[Larryp]

No, definitely don't give them any new ideas, Peter :lol:

[AstralTraveller]

Sometimes the reason for (apparently) excessive bureaucracy isn't obvious, perhaps it was a court case or some legislative requirement; ie something external to the bureaucracy. One thing it almost certainly isn't is the fault of the poor sod who has to enforce the policy. In my time at DSS we had all sorts of BS procedures thrust on us by ignoramuses in Canberra who had never seen a dole office nor had to deal with the sorts of people who frequent them. If you were tertiary educated, well balanced and had expected to be unemployed you could have jumped through the hoops but many of the poor sods who wound up as clients couldn't work out what was required of them. Many had English as a second language and were basically illiterate in their first language anyway, others had mental health issues, there were the drunks and druggies and some were just plain thick. Why do you think they were the ones out of work? And it didn't catch the scammers - they, in their own way, had their act together.

In my experience the average front-line public servant is looking to minimise work and take the path of least resistance. This sort of excessive paperwork is probably as unpopular with many of the clerical staff as it is with you. The one or two little Hitlers I did encounter were at very small regional offices where they didn't have enough to do. In the larger offices with people waiting two hours for in interview and paperwork 3ft high we just wanted to make a decision in keeping with the intention of the law and get on with it.