NOT starting a flame war - APPLE vs WIndows

[LewisM]

OK, I have heard for many years Mac is supposedly superior for most graphics/photo applications/processing, hence why a lot of designers use them, and why our Univeristy installed a Mac lab (but 90% of the rest of campus is all Windows).

As an elective to finish my Biomed degree, I chose to do Digital Photo processing, for obvious reasons, besides having worked as a photographer for 10 years (need an easy subject for summer class!) - gain more tips and tricks.

We have to use Mac for all the presentations - Quicktime .mov's of the photos etc, besides using PS.

Now, I have only been using it for a while, but I am failing to see where the Mac is superior to Windows in ANY way in terms of photo processing. Everything the Mac does, my Windows laptop does (and faster) - from file imports to processing, I cannot for the life of me find a single appreciable advantage to the Mac AT ALL. Our lecturer/tutor is a dedicated Windows guy too (and a HIGHLY successful commercial photog), and he too sees no superiority at all.

As such, I decided not to use the Mac lab at all, and do all assignment work on the windows laptop and convert the presentations to .mov (yes, I have all the software to do it).

I must be missing something, because after I became accustomed to the Mac quirks compared to Windows, I see NIL advantages to workflow, output, input, colour, speed...

Why is it Mac is popular with graphic artists? It's a GENUINE, non-inflammatory question, as I am VERY open to learn (despite what I have said about Apple before :) )

I must say I also do not understand the design rational to the Mac - it is quirky. USB slot hidden UNDER the keyboard, where 99.9% of USB sticks WON'T fit without an extension cable, monitor/computer on/off switches hidden in an obscure spot (and so "sleek/slimline" you don't find them half the time), and a VERY VERY slow mouse (yes, I adjusted the settings as high as possible).

I guess I just prefer agricultural to chic :shrug::shrug: What you are used to I am sure, but I found myself pulling out my laptop 95% of the time, and using the compatible software instead.

[Larryp]

You'll stir up a hornets nest now, Lewis!:lol:

[LewisM]

Not intending to - it's a legitimate question.

To me, it was like comparing navel oranges to valencia oranges. Same thing, more or less, different packaging

[pluto]

Apart from the culture that exists in the design world being the reason people interested in design first choose a Mac, the key technical reason is that the Mac has superior font management. The designers at my work cite this as the only thing really keeping them from making the transition away from OSX as it becomes less focused on professional users with every new version.
In terms of photo editing / processing PS and Lightroom and other smaller packages are virtually identical on Windows and Mac.

Just to qualify my opinion I work for a design/film company where the entire graphic design department use Macs (also my GF who is a designer) and for post production we primarily run Linux for 3D/VFX with a bit of Windows and Macs for comp and edit. On any given day I could use any or all of these OSs depending on what I'm doing.

[multiweb]

MAC in the past were the only platform running Adobe products. They had a superior handling of fonts, especially postscript and graphics and have always been very close to the printing industry, so the preferred tool by all designers and publishers. In those days Windows desktops weren't even in the race. Things have changed a lot since then and most apps will run on any OS seamlessly.

[LewisM]

Thanks gents - now I start to get it. So, realistically, it's more the design than for photo manipulation etc.

I know the design degree guys and gals ONLY use the Macs, but the photogs really genuinely seem to be more Windows oriented. After working in this industry for 10 years, I saw more Windows laptops for in-field downloads than I ever saw Mac.

I must say I DO like the Mac monitor colour rendition.

[Capricorn1(Tom)]

Mac is for artwork, Windows is for Engineering---autocad etc, used by Engineers, Surveyors & Architects----real world stuff:P

[DavidTrap]

There's another advertising slogan that comes to mind,

"It's a Jeep thing. You wouldn't understand."

I agree with some of your comments, but others are just wrong (eg 99.9% of USB sticks won't fit under the keyboard).

DT

[LewisM]

David,

I had 2 Lexars, 1 Imation - not ONE would fit without the extension cord (the Imation would, but was quite solidly pushing AGAINST it and I felt it COULD have damaged the port or the stick! Others had similar USB issues). All Apple needs to do is just drop the interface maybe a few millimeters? Or just move it to the edge of the keyboard, but that would ruin their clean look I guess?

Maybe not 99%, but you have to choose your stick carefully! Let's say a LOT won't :)

Other than that, I can't see the differences - none I got remotely excited about anyway. Must be a Jeep thing afterall :)

[Andy01]

Um, you're forgetting something. Macs are cool, a PC's have no soul!

But this could be a ford vs. Holden, Nikon vs. Canon, liberal vs. Labor thing, some folks just prefer one over the other :)

But seriously, macs run "windows" type apps natively, whereas historically, something like 50% of a PC's resources are required to run windows alone, that doesn't leave very much for memory hungry programs like photoshop. Hence the preference of designers, photographers & Musicians for a mac. More bang for your buck, and they look nice too.

Mac even ran a highly successful series of TV ads a while ago about the most efficient computer in the office being the one people most liked using.

As a dedicated mac user for 20 odd years, and recently becoming hooked on astrophotography. It's doing my head in that most of the AP software is written for the PC when 99% of professional photographers (yes I am one of them) use macs.

Arguably, because they're intuitive, easy, and nice to use.

However, ironically and out of sheer desperation and sick of pulling my hair out trying to get my AP stuff to work on the mac, ie: my Orion mini guider, my EQ5, stacking and processing pre-photoshop etc. I realise that I've got to bite the bullet and buy a PC laptop.

As a trial, I borrowed one from a mate to run my scope, guider etc . And its working, sort of - and I have never used Windows at all. But gee by comparison, it's soooo clunky and so not user friendly to operate, what the?! Ok that's probably an exaggeration but it seems so backward and fussy trying to do the simplest things, compared to using the mac.

But I'll accept that's probably just me and my struggle with the transition from mac to PC.

Maybe windows 8 will be easier?

Interesting debate, I'll apologise in advance if I've offended any PC diehards,

Andy

[pluto]

Look this is just factually incorrect, I'm writing this on Windows 7 and the processor is sitting between 1-2% with a bunch of stuff open.
In fact due to Apple changing compilers a few years after the release of OSX the Adobe suite was still 32bit on Mac until CS5 (about 2 years after 64bit CS4 on Windows) which resulted in the designers in my office constantly getting "out of memory" errors on their Mac pros with 16gbs in PS until they finally went from CS4 to 6 earlier this year (because, of course, a 32bit application can only access 3gb of memory and Apple's hacks to get around that just didn't work).

No OS is better overall than the others, they all have their strengths and weaknesses which comes down to how you need to use them. OSX makes the easy things easy, Windows makes most stuff doable if not necessarily simple and Linux makes anything possible but with a fair dose of pain ... and don't even get me started on OpenBSD...

[pluto]

Not sure about under the keyboard but I do know that we have a heap of Apple usb extention cables that are useless as they have a small indent poking down in the middle of the socket so that a standard usb plug won't fit. Strangely I've never seen an Apple accessory that will fit so I don't know what they're for...?

[LewisM]

Can't say I have ever seen even close to 50% of pro photogs using one, at least in the field. Maybe in the studio (but again VERY few), but I have worked semi-pro (mixing with pros) for nigh on 10 years now, and RARELY have I seen someone grab out a Macbook or similar - almost exclusively they'll pull out a windows based laptop. In fact, when I first started loading Canon CR2 on the Mac, it did not like it much - and kept "flipping" the file backwards and forwards - load one CR2, load another, flip back to the previously loaded CR2, flip 3 ahead, load the new one, flip back to the next loaded etc - it was really odd. Plus the 300-odd CR2's I downloaded to the Mac took 9 minutes, whereas to the windows laptop took 4 minutes. That's quite the difference! And I usually use the good old clunky Canon DPP on the laptop (clunky but works well!)

Agree with Pluto on memory usage. I have 12GB of RAM and 300 GB of hard disc free, and can run MULTIPLE processor/RAM intensive programs simultaneously, without hangs or slow down. The system memory use is less than 1%.

Not sure about Mac being intuitive either. What you are used to I guess, but I found the Mac NON-intuitive actually, but that's with a PC mindset.

I think mainly what the differences really come down to is looks - agricultural vs sleek chic. But function needs to follow form... and a few things (USB for starters) on the Mac really need improvement in regards FUNCTION over form. But that would take away "the look". I get it, I just don't need it. I need something that will not be maladaptive to the broader stream.

Just PLEASE, please don't give me the "You don't get it" or "it's a Jeep thing" analogy - that's just a cop out excuse of not being able to "defend" something yourself :)

I guess we will never really know what Steve Jobs was thinking in the end, and it will be interesting to see where Apple goes in the next few years with him gone.

[CDKPhil]

I have been a Mac user for years.

I think the distinguishing difference between a Mac and a PC is the fact Apple make the whole package, software and hardware. The integration is seamless.
On the other side a PC is made by Samsung or Sony or some other manufacturer and then you are using a crappy Microsoft product to run the machine. (no offence to Microsoft users ). The computer itself is quite good but it is the Microsoft product that lets it down.

That seamless integration is what makes Apple products so different. The user interface, the reliability, the speed it operates, every thing is so easy to use. You don't need to be a tech head to use it.
From video editing, compositing, photographic processing and animation, I have used Mac and PC and the Mac wins every time.

I think it is so good that Mac exists and is doing so well, it keeps Microsoft on its toes. Competition drives technology.
I can only imagine if there was no Mac, we would have the same scenario as with VHS over Beta. Beta was the better product but marketing on the VHS side killed it. And the consumer was stuck with a substandard format for years.

To all the Mac bashers, if it was not for the innovation and creativity of Apple and its founder, there would be no iPods, iPhones, iPads, and all this great tech that we as consumers enjoy. We would be all stuck in a computer dark age.
Every new innovation that Apple comes out with is copied....they must be doing something right.

I don't understand why PC users give Mac users such a hard time. People like what they like so get over it.
Honestly who gives a sh#t what computer somebody uses if they are happy
with what they have that is good enough for me. It's all a personal choice and thanks to Apple we have a choice.


Cheers

[Colin_Fraser]

Well said :thumbsup:

[pluto]

I hope you're not referring to me as a Mac basher! As I stated earlier in the thread I use OSX, Windoze and Linux every day and they all have different ways of doing things and each has its own strengths and weaknesses and if we were talking about specific features, or lack there of, I would happily commend or "bash" any of them.
No one should deny the huge contributions that Apple has made to the design and commercialisation of computers and consumer electronics but to imply that they invented everything out of thin air is a bit of a stretch. When I got my first iPhone in '07 my first impression was that they'd taken everything I liked about the phones and PDAs I had owned, along with multitouch (which I was blown away by when I first saw it in the Microsoft surface/PixelSense demo) and packaged it into a beautifully designed piece of gear. They definitely made the smartphone mainstream, something that the companies who had been making smartphones for years had failed to do. A huge evolution but an evolution none the less.

Anyway the OPs question was a fair one and was answered pretty well by a few people earlier in the thread, we seem to have drifted OT.

[FlashDrive]

Whatever ' floats your boat ' people ....I'm a Windows fan myself ..!!
Every Computer I've owned (PC) I have built myself....unless I'm wrong ...I've never seen anybody build their own Mac....correct me if I'm wrong please.

Everything I've needed to do ...Windows has performed well ...Video editing ... Movie Making ...Encoding/ Batching...video file conversion ... all of these are quite demanding....and never had any issues in the Windows Platform.

Mind you ....You must have a decent machine to cope.....that's why I like to build my own.
Win 7 Ultimate 64bit / i7 2600k Intel Quad Processor @3.8 GHz ( unlocked multiplier ) 16Gb 2133 Patriot Viper DDR3 Ram / 3 X 240Gb SSD's / nVidia GTX 560Ti 1Gb DDR5 Video Card....never missed a beat.

My Daughter had PC's for years ....then had Mac's at her work place ...now she's a ' die hard ' Mac Fan and will never go back to a PC :shrug:
I went out and bought her a Mac Book Pro ...she gave me her ' old ' Windows XP Machine... ( still runs fine )..... I had a go at the MAC ....but I have to say ...I needed to spend a lot of time to get used to this ..... no left ' click ' on the mouse ... plus other things.
Also...Don't like being locked into ' iTunes ' for Music/ Video etc.

I like my PC ... very versatile in a lot of way's ...... and I'm happy you like ' your ' Mac ;)

Flash ..!! :D

[LewisM]

I am certainly not bashing it either, so everyone step down off their high horse :) Just a simple question of differences, efficiency etc. One PM I received was EXTREMELY informative and exactly what I was searching for answer wise. It's the "auot'back up" syndrome that starts these "wars".

As I have said now 3 times, it's what you are used to. Windows systems have as many odd functionalities as Mac does, just some of the design aspects of Mac I don't appreciate much - they seem to sometimes sacrifice functionality in the endeavour for aesthetics, which is many times a BAD idea.

I started using Mac back in about 1995 when I first went to Uni - they were going to install ALL Macs on campus (these were EARLY Macs obviously - or whatever they were called then?). I got used to them, but 9 times out of 10 our lessons involved running them in Windows emulation mode, which seemed kind of counter-productive when the whole system could be solved by installing Windows systems (plus the ever major headache they had of no external eject button for CD's, and CD's forever getting jammed!). 8 months into the new uni, they ripped out the Macs - at a SERIOUS loss to Apple, as they were on hire-purchase - installed Windows machines (I think Dell by memory). We, as an IT group, had to upgrade from Win 3.1 to the brand-spanking new Win 95 on all the systems :) It was an assignment task :)

I am considering purchasing a Mac - learning it's ins and outs - but am not so sure there will be any advantage (hence the question). I see not much need software-wise either, because I can find just about any Mac software for Win anyway, or I have a plethora of "grey: software that will happily convert it to Quicktime/iTune/Iphoto etc standard.

I finished one assignment piece yesterday on my Win system. Ran it through my format converter to a .mov, plugged into the Mac at Uni, and ran perfectly.

[pluto]

I know a couple of people who build their own boxes to install OSX on, though I'm pretty sure it violates the license (not that anyone cares). I'd say it could become a lot more popular soon if Apple doesn't release any more Mac Pro towers.
Google "hackintosh" and "osx86".

Lewis - as far as video support on Windows, basically every video encoder/editor/anything-else-that-deals-with-video will support quicktime as QT is just a container format, like avi. The only limitation you are likely to run into is if you have to encode a .mov using Apples ProRes codecs as Apple don't release the encoder for anything other than OSX (you can get the decoder for Win). This would only be a problem if you are trying to work as part of a Mac centric pipeline where people up and downstream are working with ProRes. We do all our video stuff at work on Mac and it wouldn't matter if we used either Mac or Windows as we use Premier now that Final Cut committed suicide with it's last update. Same with comp as Nuke is available on Mac, Windows and Linux.

[Colin_Fraser]

You said...

Everything the Mac does, my Windows laptop does (and faster)

I cannot for the life of me find a single appreciable advantage to the Mac AT ALL

after I became accustomed to the Mac quirks compared to Windows, I see NIL advantages to workflow, output, input, colour, speed..

I must say I also do not understand the design rational to the Mac - it is quirky.

monitor/computer on/off switches hidden in an obscure spot (and so "sleek/slimline" you don't find them half the time),

and a VERY VERY slow mouse

in fact, when I first started loading Canon CR2 on the Mac, it did not like it much

the 300-odd CR2's I downloaded to the Mac took 9 minutes, whereas to the windows laptop took 4 minutes. That's quite the difference!

but I found the Mac NON-intuitive actually

and a few things (USB for starters) on the Mac really need improvement in regards FUNCTION over form

And that's not bashing :shrug:




You're kidding, after all that ;)

[multiweb]

Gee that didn't take long. How old are you guys? 5?....:lol:

[LewisM]

I don't find that BASHING - that's COMPARING. Was there any derogatory remarks? Any inflammatory ones? Only for thin-skinned or someone with a really sensitive eco-system.

Really surprised by the reactions of but a few to open minded questions of simple comparison. Doesn't matter- one PM answered all the questions I needed to know, VERY informatively and without emotion or feelings of persecution...

[Colin_Fraser]

Golly Dad, were only having a bit of fun :D

[marki]

Woohoo Apple fan boys Vs PC fan boys, where's the popcorn :rolleyes:.

Really guys, use what you prefer and be done with it, if you like it, it must be the best for you, simple really.

Mark

[Andy01]

Sorry Lewis, not sure where you're getting your facts from, re: professional photographers using macs.

I've been one for 30 years, and I have my own studio, full of macs and so do almost all of my professional colleagues.
As former national president of the ACMP and 5x master of the AIPP I can assure you that our members are predominantly Mac users.

Maybe we could survey the membership : )

Cheers
Andy

[LewisM]

Maybe it's a regional thing then :) ;)

[FlashDrive]

Let's all ' Kiss ' and make up ..:lol:

[LewisM]

I thought you said "Let's all kiss in make-up"...

THAT is a regional thing ! :) ;)

Apples and Oranges...Aye Carumba!

[LewisM]

I also apologise if anyone's hackles got ruffled. Not my intention. I wanted a comparative debate, not a flame war.

[Octane]

Mac rules.

UNIX 4 lyf.

Colin: there is left- and right-click on the Mac -- by default, it's disabled. Just go in to settings, mouse settings and enable it.

Also, you are not locked in to iTunes for video/music. There's nothing stopping you from installing VLC Player, or a plethora of other audio/video players.

H

[FlashDrive]

Thanks H ....I'll talk to Aimee ( daughter ) see what she has been doing with her Media ....iTunes or otherwise.

Flash ..!! :hi:

[Poita]

For me the reasons are multiple.
I have to use Windows and MAC computers simultaneously and often.
The big advantage on the MAC for me is applescript, automator and the full unix shell. It allows for workflows that are nigh on impossible on the PC, and it doesn't require any extra software to set it up.
I find when I go to another office, if they have windows machines I often have to download some other bits and pieces to get my jobs done, but 9 times out of 10 what I need is already on the MAC as it is part of the OS.
Things have improved on windows since Win7 came out, but there are still a few holes when it comes to automating complex workflows.
Mac font handling is far superior, as is integration with USB and firewire, no dicking around because windows has reassigned a USB port etc.

It basically comes down to niggles and being able to get down and dirty under the hood, which is harder on the PC than on the Mac. It is kind of what you would expect when one OS has to handle an almost infinite range of hardware configs, and the other only a handful.
I do have my Windows PC running well, but it took a long time, and a lot of fiddling, and a lot of that time spent could have been time working and making money.
Generally, when I want to tinker, I use windows, when I want to get a job done, I use the mac.
Either can do the job, but I tend to get the work done faster on the mac, despite the fact that I have had a few years mac experience versus having a PC since 1987.

[Poita]

Yeah, there is a huge range of Media players, I used to use XBMC and VLC mostly on OSX.

[LewisM]

Ahem Peter... IPEC man, IPEC :)

Wife's getting antsy about that 7 ft long parcel in the garage... :)

[multiweb]

Applescript is super cool. MS needs something like that.

[tonybarry]

I am a Mac developer in science and engineering, and I see a lot of Macs in use by science people. Very few in use by engineering people.

The science folk like the Unix underpinnings, but would seem to be moving away from Mac and towards Linux due to the changes since Snow Leopard. This is not just my opinion - I have canvassed other scientists and they report the same.

The engineering folk like the Visual Studio environment, and the absolutely huge amount of applications developed for Windows. I see some eng switching to Apple hardware and then booting to Win for eng. work, but going back to OSX for net banking and other stuff where security is more of an issue. While Matlab is available cross platform, I know of one Mac dev and a whole lot more of PC devs for Matlab.

The security issue is thorny for both Mac and Win. Both platforms can be compromised, although Win has vastly more OS exploits. The Mac world has a few social engineered trojans and some OS vulns. In general, Microsoft is much better (proactive) about security patches than Apple. Linux is the clear winner in security.

As a dev who has coded for Mac since 1991, I can say I prefer the Apple world. The $100 security certificate needed for Mountain Lion development is not much fun, and I honestly do not know if it will make a difference to malware dissemination on the Mac (or not).

In the astro world (I don't do photoshop processing, just basic imaging and occultation work) I have found PC applications outnumber Mac apps by a long way. There are exceptions - Astroplanner (cross platform); Nebulosity (cross platform, but has a much bigger selection of cams on Win); Equinox (Mac only); Astro IIDC for FW cam control (Mac, now sadly gone out of business); ImageJ (cross platform Java) ... the list for Mac is not great.

In the end, I've found that experience on a platform counts for an awful lot. If a person is experienced on Win and then moves to Mac, it is a hard slog. Same in reverse. The intuitive Apple urban legend is true only for people who are computer naive and have a tutor to show them the basics. The easy-to-crash Windows urban legend is also just that - newer versions of Windows (7 in particular) seem to be quite robust, and the issues tend to be more with buggy device drivers than the OS. The Win 8 interface is not a great advantage, but it's early days yet. It may get its mojo together.

In response to Lewis's OP ... the Mac world is very nice - but if you have any kind of agenda or bias, or if you need a particular app that only exists for one platform, then the reasons to be Apple or PC are much less these days.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[CDKPhil]

No not at all, and your right Apple did not make things appear out of thin air, but they sure do a good job of presenting them.

I just think it is funny that there is so much tension over this topic.

It all comes down to personal experience, what works for one may not work for the other.

I think if you wanted to find out what is better for your needs get a Mac and PC of equivalent speed side by side and battle it out. This is the only way to know what is going to work better for you.

Hey I am bias so get a Mac :lol:

Phil

[multiweb]

Alleluia! First concise and informative post. Covered it all. :thumbsup:

[LewisM]

It sure did - and VERY nicely,and VERY similar to the PM I received from another Mac developer.

[pluto]

Funny you mention that as I did just that last year when we happened to get a Mac Pro and a PC with identical processors, same video cards (except for the extra bits Apple tacks on) and the same amount of ram. We ran Geekbench on both and, on the PC, both Windows 7 and Fedora 11.
Predictably Linux was out in front but I was surprised that Windows just edged ahead of OSX. Historically I've always thought Windows was fairly inefficient, especially for memory management, so this was a bit of a suprise and certainly a sign of the improvement that Windows 7 represented over XP (and Vista... *shudders*).
Although the OSs were fresh installs and had just been rebooted before the test I don't know what was running on OSX and Windows that could have affected those results and I also noticed that re-running the test would give very similar but slightly different individual results so the whole test isn't very scientific. I also can't remember the version of Mac OS that was on it.
Also worth noting was the prices of the two boxes, from memory the Mac Pro was about $11,500 and the PC was just over $8k. Although Mac prices have come down since then and I do think the current Macbook Pros are good value relative to other premium laptops on the market.

Of course in the test of which case was prettier the Mac won hands down ;)

[ourkind]

People are forgetting Apple Customer Service ROCKS!!! :thumbsup:

Not bias I own both.

[lacad01]

Horses for courses I guess. I use my Macbook at home for photo & video processing - Canon DPP & CS4 work well for my needs and built in iMovie is great for compiling home movies. I have a work supplied HP laptop used primarily for MS Office stuff, Visio and console/terminal - again it's a good tool that does it's job well. I'm not passionate about either, at the end of the day they're just tools to get jobs done...

[pluto]

Well said!

[garymck]

Hi,

my experience with Macs sucks.

This year after many yeaars using Dos / Win based computers I decided to make the switch to mac. I bought a 13" Macbook Pro with 8 gigs of ram and a 750 gig hard drive. I was seduced by claims of unmatched stability and ease of use. I really really wanted to love this Mac. Unfortunately my experience with it has been the opposite of what I believed it would be.

Mountain Lion has been an unstable OS. I have had more crashes in a month than I have had in 5 years of windows. The machine has locked up totally, crashed apps randomly. The machine has been checked by a "Genius" who proclaimed it "fine" and who cannot explain its behaviour. A friend who bough the same machine as me has had it back 3 times to Apple for the same issues. Like me, he was given no explanation. I have reformatted and reinstalled Mountain Lion 2 times without improvement.

My latest nightmare is the "Upgrade" of ITunes just released which refuses to import any new music.

My experience is not unique - a search finds plenty of others who have had similar experiences. Even the latest ITunes issue I have is not unique to me.

I have read the manuals/help etc, but think I may salvage my investment by dumping OSX and installing windows. That way I will only lose the $600 I paid over and above what a similar specced Windows machine would have cost....

I bought a chinese telescope mount once....never again. I bought Apple once....never again.

Thank you for reading my rant....I feel soooo much better having got it off my chest...

cheers
Gary

[irwjager]

MacOSX and Windows (as of Windows 2000) are fantastic OS's and have been rock solid for me.
These days, however, IMHO both Apple and Microsoft seem to be more focused on locking users (and developers) into their ecosystem than innovating and really addressing customer/user concerns.