LPI vs NexImage vs StarShoot?

DaveO (David) · #1 10-05-2006, 04:09 PM

Hi All

Can anybody out there comment on the relative strengths/weaknesses of these 3 products?

Meade LPI
Orion StarShoot
Celestron NexImage

I have a new notebook, so could use any of them. However I am wondering which is likely to give the best results and which comes with the best software.

All thoughts welcome.

astro_south (Andrew) · #2 11-05-2006, 12:41 AM

David

(warning...very non-expert advice follows

)

Have you considered a Philips ToUCam Pro II? You need to unscrew the lens and insert an adaptor (available on the web) and when linked with some great free software (K3CCDtools & Registax) makes an excellent planetary imager...something to do with a CCD chip over a cmos chip I think. I'm only a recent ToUcam owner, but I am certainly impressed. If you are on the southside of Brisbane, we could organise a meetup and your welcome to try it out before you buy.

iceman (Mike) · #3 11-05-2006, 05:48 AM

Dave,

What do you want an imager for?
Purely solar system imaging? (ie: moon/planets), or do you plan to use it for deep-space stuff as well?

I echo Andrew's comments that the ToUcam Pro (840k or 900nc) should be added to your list. The NexImage has the same CCD chip as the ToUcam, but a slightly different chipset I believe.

The Orion StarShoot is fairly new, and I've seen some "ok" images from it, but nothing that rivals the ToUcam yet. It could be because not enough people are using it, but I also think it doesn't have the same sensitive CCD chip as the ToUcam/NexImage.

Don't worry about what software comes with them - for planetary/lunar stuff, you're best off using K3CCDTools, which is free for version 1. It's what most solar system imagers use as their capture software.

The processing software you're likely to use (registax) is also free.

Hitchhiker · #4 11-05-2006, 08:34 AM

My 2 cents as an LPI user.

Pros: You can do up to 15 sec exposures 'straight out of the box', so if you want to do some (limited) deep sky stuff, you can.

Comes with software (though, as Mike says you can get other free software to use)

Is ready to use straight away - don't have to get any adapters or filters.

No compression is done on the image - you get a full 900k bmp file, so no compression artifacts.

Cons: Pixel size - the LPI has 8 micron pixels vs the ToUCam/NextImage 5.6 microns. What this means in practice is the ToUcam will give a 40% bigger image for the same focal length.

Sensitivity - the LPI is not as sensitive as the ToUCam/NexImage - this lets you use a shorter exposure time to 'freeze' the seeing.

Frame rate - the maximum frame rate I have ever managed is slightly over 2 fps. This means, at best, you are going to get half the frames of the ToUCam brigade. More frames means more chance you will get good frames.

I've had a great time using the LPI (note that I got mine for free with my telescope) but if I had to choose between the LPI and ToUCam/Neximage for planetary/lunar imaging I would go with the ToUCam. The LPI has some great features but, where it counts for planetary imaging (pixel size, sensitivity, and frame rate), the ToUCam comes out ahead.

I have no knowledge of the Orion Starshoot so can't offer an opinion.

Just my opinion

DaveO (David) · #5 11-05-2006, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Have you considered a Philips ToUCam Pro II?

Andrew

Thanks for the info. I had not thought about the ToUCam.

The reason for picking the other 3 was that they were (as far as I am aware), "ready to use" options. Basically plug them in and let the software do the work, as opposed to having to play with the software to get the images right.

However this may have been a naive - and there is no "non-expert advice" from where I am sitting!!!

I am in Kenmore, so I will PM you to discuss catching up - thanks for the kind offer.

DaveO (David) · #6 11-05-2006, 08:41 AM

Quote:

What do you want an imager for?

Mike

Initially I want to do some "easy" imaging (

) - so I am thinking lunar and planetary. I have seen what is involved in doing DSO inaging, and am not quite ready for that (this decade!).

This will be my first foray, so I want to reduce the complexity. I will have to investigate the ToUCam to get some details.

Thanks as always for the feedback.

DaveO (David) · #7 11-05-2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

My 2 cents as an LPI user.

Adam

Thanks a lot for that. As a novice, I was unaware of some of those issues, and your summary was great!! Definitely work more than 2c!

[1ponders] (Paul) · #8 11-05-2006, 08:45 AM

Dave, come up to Astroron's next dark of the moon get together. It will be advertised in the Star Party and Observinging Sessions forum. There will be both LPI and ToUcam (maybe even a Neximager) and you can see first hand how they work.

Dennis · #9 11-05-2006, 10:14 AM

Hi David

I cut my webcam teeth on the LPI, which was a very nice, educational, useful and easy introduction to webcam imaging. It is a nice, integrated SW/HW package and the software is easy to use. A big plus is that you get the results there and then - no need for the post processing with software such as Registax.

After seeing the results of others using the ToUcam, I purchased a Philips ToUcam 840K and have not used the LPI since, as the ToUcam has better resolution as nicely described by Hitchhiker (above).

Going from ground zero, I valued my learning experiences with the LPI as overall, I found it slightly easier to use out of the box – it is quite a forgiving system. If you don't mind the steeper learning curve and your focus will be planets and the moon, I would recommend the ToUcam.

Cheers

Dennis

acropolite (Phil) · #10 11-05-2006, 10:55 AM

From what I've read, the Neximage is identical to the ToUcam, and as it comes ready to go with software and 1.25 inch nosepiece is probably a better proposition. Andrews have a special on the Neximage at the moment for $219.

DaveO (David) · #11 11-05-2006, 11:03 AM

Phil

Thanks for that. Yes, everything I've seen so far says that they are the same, including the Celestron web site. Given that, the fact that it is a complete package built to purpose does appeal. And thanks for the tip re Andrews. I had missed that when looking for prices.

DaveO (David) · #12 12-05-2006, 09:36 AM

All

So far the NexImage seems to be the pick for me over the ToUCam, basically because it is packaged.

However I have been doing some digging on the Orion devices. They have two, one which is CMOS and one which is CCD. The specs for the CCD are listed below:

CCD Color Imager Specifications - CCD SensorSony® ExView HAD™ ICX259AK Color
CCD Sensor size - 1/3"
Pixel array - 752 x 582 (437,664 total)
No. exposures for full-color image - 1
Exposure range - .002 sec to 9.3 hrs
A/D conversion - 16 bit
Thermoelectric cooling (TEC) - Yes
IR filter - Yes
Oversampling (increases S/N) - 2x
Autoguider capability - Yes
USB connection - 2.0 high speed

It has a larger chip than the NexImage, and the TEC. I understand that nobody may have played with this one, but what are people's thoughts re the specs? Is the TEC really all it is hyped to be? Is it worth 2-3 times the cost of the NexImage?

[1ponders] (Paul) · #13 12-05-2006, 01:09 PM

You don't happen to know the pixel size do you?

DaveO (David) · #14 12-05-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [1ponders]

You don't happen to know the pixel size do you?

No - I am waiting on a reply from them. When I initially asked the question they simply gave me the number of pixels! No reply yet, but will probably have to wait until they are at work again tonight.

Interestingly, further research seems to indicate that the Orion DSCI is probably NOT a competitor of the NexImage, but rather the Meade DSI. Similiar specs to the DSI (first version) as well as pricing. Later versions of the DSI are even better specs (eg 1/2" chip vs 1/3" in DSCI vs 1/4" in NexImage/ToUCam).

However that leaves me wonderig how effective it might be for solar system imaging. An extension of the old question, if I have a DSI, do I need an LPI?

The Orion version of the LPI is a CMOS device, which seems to be not as good (but cheaper).

The question is finding the sweet spot(s) on the price performance graph. The NexImage is $219 at Andrews. The DSCI is $579 at Sirius Optics. BinTel have the Meade DSI at $494, and the DSI II at $899.

Given everybody's recommendations on the ToUCam/NexImage, and the price, it is very tempting. Especially since this would be my first foray into the whole imaging game.

DaveO (David) · #15 12-05-2006, 01:50 PM

Oops, and then there is the GSTAR-Ex @ $595 from MyAstroShop. Although this is not a one-shot CCD - you need to add the filters (extra cost).

http://www.myastroshop.com.au/guides/gstar.htm

So many options, so little money!

DaveO (David) · #16 12-05-2006, 02:08 PM

There is an old expression: "The question is the answer"!

Having looked at what I wrote above, I think the answer is obvious.

Therefore I have just ordered the NexImage from Andrews. For the price, I think it is probably the best option as an introduction. If I want something more sophisticated later, I can always upgrade!

Now all I need is the scope into which to put the camera!

Dennis · #17 12-05-2006, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [1ponders]

You don't happen to know the pixel size do you?

I found the following for the Sony ExView HAD ICX259AK CCD on the Orion Star Shoot Yahoo Groups website in the Files section:

Orion Star Shooter
752 (H) × 582 (V)
Chip size: 6.00mm (H) × 4.96mm (V)
Unit cell size: 6.50μm (H) × 6.25μm (V)

Cheers

Dennis

Hitchhiker · #18 12-05-2006, 03:44 PM

I think you will be very happy with the NexImage for planetary imaging, congratulations.

I wouldn't recommend a DSI as a planetary camera - even though I have seen some very good planetary pics taken with it. Frame rate is around the 2 fps level at the exposures you would be using for planetary imaging. Pixel size is 9.5 x 7.5 microns so a little on the large size.

matt · #19 15-05-2006, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iceman

The NexImage has the same CCD chip as the ToUcam, but a slightly different chipset I believe.

Mike

I'm interested in the comment you've made about the NexImage Vs TouCam.

Can you elaborate any further? I'm giving serious thought to getting hold of a Toucam to see how it stacks up with the NexImage but am completely clueless when it comes to chips/chipsets etc

Do you think there'd be a significant difference?

Has anyone used both and can verify a difference in performance?

nightsky · #20 20-05-2006, 12:53 AM

Just picked myself up a Meade LPI from Astromart for $118 Aus incl postage from Canada (as a after thought I should have asked the PM to pick it up for me as he's visiting there would have saved on postage) should receive it in about 10 days, the bloke who sold it only used it once,he got it free when he bought his Mead LX 200.I'll let you know how it goes when I receive it.
NightSky