Would you take out a loan

TrevorW · #1 11-10-2009, 03:14 PM

Guys we are always borrowing for this or that whether it be cars, boats, you name it but how many of us would borrow a significant amount to set up our ideal observatory

$10k, 20K or even more remember I'm talking about equipment that could last a lifetime

Be honest with yourself I've pondered the idea but never have

Davros (Lauren) · #2 11-10-2009, 03:39 PM

I suppose astro gear holds its value well and improvements to your house / yard are a good thing. Gotta make better economical sense that a car that looses half of its value when it drives out of the yard.

Omaroo (Chris Malikoff) · #3 11-10-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davros

I suppose astro gear holds its value well and improvements to your house / yard are a good thing. Gotta make better economical sense that a car that looses half of its value when it drives out of the yard.

A bit like a swimming pool I think - you either want one or not. If you don't, you won't buy a house with one. As far as "adding" value, I suspect that an observatory in the yard would turn off potential buyers rather than attract them and certainly wouldn't add to the house value. It'd more likely be seen as "something to get rid of".... unless you sell to another astronomer of course, or a gardener who might want it as a shed.

supernova1965 (Warren) · #4 11-10-2009, 03:48 PM

The way things are in the world at the moment I think anyone who is debt free are in a good position. I would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the bank.

dpastern (Dave Pastern) · #5 11-10-2009, 04:19 PM

Since I had a bad credit rating (probably still do), I doubt the bank would lend me that much money. I basically was working contract a few years back, got sick, took time off work without pay, had to pay bills somehow, maxed both my credit cards out (and also bought a few silly things on impulse that I know I shouldn't have). I became unemployed, took a while to get employed again, and couldn't afford the mininum repayments to keep the bank happy. Despite trying to negotiate with them, and seeing the Centrelink FIS and also an independant financial advisor, the bank told me where to go and didn't agree to a temporary repayment plan until I became employed again. The financial advisor in question had NEVER been knocked back on a repayment plan before, she was gobsmacked. Obviously the bank had it in for me (I'd had a biatch at the credit card department very rudely have a go at me over the phone and I told her to **** off).

Anyways, all debts paid off now, some money in the bank, regular job etc. Bank has given me another credit card with a 1k limit and a 2nd chance. I'm working on building up my credit rating again and keeping out of debt.

If I had a better credit rating, and a higher income job, I'd consider a loan on a AP1200, deepsky 10" RC and throw in a QHY9 CCD imaging setup with filter holder and filters, as well as a permanent pier with some basic cover from the weather. I don't want much do I!!!

Dave

mac (Matt) · #6 11-10-2009, 04:34 PM

There's no way I'd go into serious debt over a telescope or observatory - unless it could make me money somehow. That's the general rule of borrowing money - it must, in turn, make money. For example, buying a house: properties generally increase in value at a higher rate than the mortgage. Therefore, a property is making money. Another example is a vehicle. If you use a vehicle to get you to work, which allows you to earn money, then that is a positive investment.

If you use your telescope gear to make money, whether it be through astrophotography which you sell to a magazine, or through paid scientific research, then yes, it is a worthwhile loan.

Just my ten cents

supernova1965 (Warren) · #7 11-10-2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpastern

Since I had a bad credit rating (probably still do), I doubt the bank would lend me that much money. I basically was working contract a few years back, got sick, took time off work without pay, had to pay bills somehow, maxed both my credit cards out (and also bought a few silly things on impulse that I know I shouldn't have). I became unemployed, took a while to get employed again, and couldn't afford the mininum repayments to keep the bank happy. Despite trying to negotiate with them, and seeing the Centrelink FIS and also an independant financial advisor, the bank told me where to go and didn't agree to a temporary repayment plan until I became employed again. The financial advisor in question had NEVER been knocked back on a repayment plan before, she was gobsmacked. Obviously the bank had it in for me (I'd had a biatch at the credit card department very rudely have a go at me over the phone and I told her to **** off).

Anyways, all debts paid off now, some money in the bank, regular job etc. Bank has given me another credit card with a 1k limit and a 2nd chance. I'm working on building up my credit rating again and keeping out of debt.

If I had a better credit rating, and a higher income job, I'd consider a loan on a AP1200, deepsky 10" RC and throw in a QHY9 CCD imaging setup with filter holder and filters, as well as a permanent pier with some basic cover from the weather. I don't want much do I!!!

Dave

Good on you for getting on top of things not an easy thing to do don't let em get you back into their trap again of easy money our bank is constantly trying to get us to up our credit limit but we have our balance at zero and intend to keep it there. The only money we owe is to a friend for our car we pay him a good interest rate and we look after each other.

starlooker (Duc) · #8 11-10-2009, 04:50 PM

A loan for a house or car make sense.

A loan for a hobby makes less sense.

Starkler (Geoff) · #9 11-10-2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Guys we are always borrowing for this or that

I dont. Only thing I have ever taken a loan from a financial insto for is the house mortgage. Cars or any other big ticket items I have always bought from savings. Personal debt is toxic to wealth and should only ever be taken as leverage on productive assets. If you have to a take a loan (and dont already have the savings) it probably means you cant afford it.

AdrianF (Adrian) · #10 11-10-2009, 04:59 PM

As far as I am concerned when it comes to a hobby if I cant afford it I dont need it.

Adrian

PeterM · #11 11-10-2009, 05:00 PM

15 years or so ago a good astro friend and I went Astro busking for a while in the mall at Surfers Paradise right in between Hungry Jacks and Maccas near the famous Surfers beach sign. The Moon, Saturn, Jupiter and for a while the impacts of Shoemaker - Levi were all we had to show and we timed it well. We became a very a good attraction with many lining up to look through the 'scopes for a $2 coin. Suffice to say we made enough for me to purchase a Galaxy Optics 14inch set and a rebuild of my Dob at the time. Haven't done this for years now but I know of someoene who set up Astro busking at Southbank with his 12inch Dob on Friday and Saturday nights, nearly always coming home with $200-$400 per night, he very quickly paid himself back the money he put into the hobby. So if you want to upgrade your gear etc it can be as simple as that, no loan required. I also know of a lady who does well selling her prints of the Moon at one of the big markets, not pretty nebula etc, just phases of the Moon, in great demand it seems.
I did worry at first about louts and possible damage etc but quickly realised even they are interested in having a look. We never charged anyone who didn't have any money, everyone got a look and we came home smiling.
Make your gear work for you and you can have anything you want.
PeterM.

dpastern (Dave Pastern) · #12 11-10-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supernova1965

Good on you for getting on top of things not an easy thing to do don't let em get you back into their trap again of easy money our bank is constantly trying to get us to up our credit limit but we have our balance at zero and intend to keep it there. The only money we owe is to a friend for our car we pay him a good interest rate and we look after each other.

Don't worry Warren - I've been burnt once. Not again. I have a lot more self control with money these days and I'm also living at home, which reduces a lot of financial stress. I know some on these forums have criticised me for electing to live at home, but my parents like me at home, it's cheaper for me too. I'm single, not really looking for a girlfriend, and I'm not the type to go out and pick girls up and bring them home just for a shag, so I don't have to really worry about "privacy". My parents live upstairs, I live downstairs, and we usually don't get in each others hair. I'm glad I moved back home, especially considering my dad's failing health.

Dave

AlexN · #13 11-10-2009, 05:24 PM

I plan to add 40k onto my house loan that I'm applying for in the next few months to add an observatory with a bit of special gear in it.. Whats the harm?? I'm looking at buying a 22 acre property 300km out of the city for a single purpose, Astrophotography. This purpose can not be properly achieved without a permanent setup, a fairly substantial mount and a rather large telescope...

Just recently I refinanced my car loan to encompass my credit card debt, when I did that I got an extra $6000 thrown on top for astro gear.. It all depends on how badly you want the gear.. doing it on top of a car loan is the wrong way to do it.. with interest, you end up paying quite a lot more for your gear than if you'd bought it with your own money, the advantage being that you get it NOW..

On a home loan, I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn't extend the loan amount to encompass some new gear and an observatory.. Is the new gear and the observatory going to make you happy? happier than if you didnt have it? if the answer is yes, and you can afford the difference in the loan repayments, I say go for it... I am..

Alex.

PeterM · #14 11-10-2009, 05:37 PM

Far better than laying on your bed in your last days thinking to yourself I really wish I had of bought that astro/imaging gear when I could of.
PeterM.

pmrid (Peter) · #15 11-10-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davros

improvements to your house / yard are a good thing. Gotta make better economical sense that a car that looses half of its value when it drives out of the yard.

Hmmm! Don't really agree. The value of anything is not what it costs but what someone else would be willing to pay to buy it from you. Not many non-astronomers want an observatory in their yard. In some ways, the presence of a permanent observatory (as opposed to something that can either be disassembled or used for another non-astronomy purpose) may significantly limit potential buyers - particularly all those many, many poor souls out there who are not hooked on the joys of staying up half the night with icycles hanging off their ears.
BUT, if, as Alex is doing, the property he's talking about is ALL observatory and not much else, then resale is not his objective and as he's a young man, he'll probably expect to get plenty of years of use out of it. So he's doing this for resale.
Peter

AlexN · #16 11-10-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starkler

Personal debt is toxic to wealth and should only ever be taken as leverage on productive assets. If you have to a take a loan (and dont already have the savings) it probably means you cant afford it.

Just a bit more interjection on my part..

Personal debt is toxic to wealth, but wealth does not mean happiness. Who wants to be wealthy, but unhappy.. Yes, it would be great to live in an ideal world where nobody is in debt.. That would be great. That said, how many of us would have a 12.5" RC or a 180mm APO on an AP1200 GTO with a big fancy CCD camera on it if we could... When you're talking about getting a 300~350k (minimum these days really) home loan, whats an extra $50k on top going to hurt? It might cost you an extra $100 a month, and if being very happy is not worth $100 a month to you then I feel utterly depressed for you.. If hoarding wealth is your goal in life, it must be a sad existence. You can not take your money with you when you die, you SHOULD not let your children inherit large amounts of wealth from you as if you do they will not learn the value of a dollar and grow up expecting that everything should be made easy for them.. All you have in this life in a brief period of time with which you can choose what to do. You could choose to save all your money for a rainy day and not have and experience the things you want, or you could just say to yourself well, debt, its here today, it'll be here tomorrow, and if all you get for it is a roof over your head, well that will do, but if you can afford a little extra a month, why wouldnt you get a roof over your head, and a sliding roof over your shiny new telescope/mount/camera...

I vote happiness over money. Money isn't important, Its not even real in a sense, we're just made to believe that it is.

supernova1965 (Warren) · #17 11-10-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexN

Just a bit more interjection on my part..

Personal debt is toxic to wealth, but wealth does not mean happiness. Who wants to be wealthy, but unhappy.. Yes, it would be great to live in an ideal world where nobody is in debt.. That would be great. That said, how many of us would have a 12.5" RC or a 180mm APO on an AP1200 GTO with a big fancy CCD camera on it if we could... When you're talking about getting a 300~350k (minimum these days really) home loan, whats an extra $50k on top going to hurt? It might cost you an extra $100 a month, and if being very happy is not worth $100 a month to you then I feel utterly depressed for you.. If hoarding wealth is your goal in life, it must be a sad existence. You can not take your money with you when you die, you SHOULD not let your children inherit large amounts of wealth from you as if you do they will not learn the value of a dollar and grow up expecting that everything should be made easy for them.. All you have in this life in a brief period of time with which you can choose what to do. You could choose to save all your money for a rainy day and not have and experience the things you want, or you could just say to yourself well, debt, its here today, it'll be here tomorrow, and if all you get for it is a roof over your head, well that will do, but if you can afford a little extra a month, why wouldnt you get a roof over your head, and a sliding roof over your shiny new telescope/mount/camera...

I vote happiness over money. Money isn't important, Its not even real in a sense, we're just made to believe that it is.

That's assuming that all people have large amounts of money to pass on some of us through no fault of our own are just getting by and are still happy in spite the fact. You can be happy no matter if you live in rental or your own home if you own the biggest and brightest of everything you can still be depressed. Don't get me wrong I love things too but I also believe that if you get things it's because you have been generous to others in the past. Like with my astronomy gear I went to our local recycling center and there it all was and I got it for $58 I know that I enjoy using it but if it were gone I could get over it I look at it like a gift but I also know that it is not going to last for ever so attachment to anything is going to cause pain in the future.

OzRob (Rob) · #18 11-10-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starlooker

A loan for a house or car make sense.

A loan for a hobby makes less sense.

I know people who have borrowed money for holidays. Some of them are currently paying of their credit cards to pay for the last one and planning the next one...lol

IMO if it gets a lot of use and makes you happy then there is no harm borrowing money if it is within your capacity to make the repayments.

matt · #19 11-10-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexN

Just a bit more interjection on my part..

Personal debt is toxic to wealth, but wealth does not mean happiness. Who wants to be wealthy, but unhappy.. Yes, it would be great to live in an ideal world where nobody is in debt.. That would be great. That said, how many of us would have a 12.5" RC or a 180mm APO on an AP1200 GTO with a big fancy CCD camera on it if we could... When you're talking about getting a 300~350k (minimum these days really) home loan, whats an extra $50k on top going to hurt? It might cost you an extra $100 a month, and if being very happy is not worth $100 a month to you then I feel utterly depressed for you.. If hoarding wealth is your goal in life, it must be a sad existence. You can not take your money with you when you die, you SHOULD not let your children inherit large amounts of wealth from you as if you do they will not learn the value of a dollar and grow up expecting that everything should be made easy for them.. All you have in this life in a brief period of time with which you can choose what to do. You could choose to save all your money for a rainy day and not have and experience the things you want, or you could just say to yourself well, debt, its here today, it'll be here tomorrow, and if all you get for it is a roof over your head, well that will do, but if you can afford a little extra a month, why wouldnt you get a roof over your head, and a sliding roof over your shiny new telescope/mount/camera...

I vote happiness over money. Money isn't important, Its not even real in a sense, we're just made to believe that it is.

No offence, Alex...but you do sound like a lot of people around your age.

I'm not saying your 'attitude' toward debt/credit and instant gratification is right or wrong, by the way

It's just interesting.

Kevnool (Kev) · #20 11-10-2009, 06:15 PM

Bit of a personal question best answered by a financial adviser.
Cheers Kev.