Beginner telescope

[erick (Eric)]

ps. Look in this thread about a book called "Heavens Above". Well worth it for someone scanning the sky with binoculars and starting from knowledge level zero like I did.

[Gargoyle_Steve (Steve)]

You could not do better than to take to heart everything that Eric has written, great response Eric!

The advice being given above is being offered freely by those who have seen and done all of these things - ie used binoculars, telescopes ("cheap" ones and more "quality" ones) and is being given so that you do not make mistakes in buying something that you will soon regret having spent yoru hard earned dollars on.

For my own opinion - I personally own 2 telscopes & 3 pairs of binoculars, so I have viewing instruments that range from 32 mm aperture through to 302mm - each of these has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Personally I don't think you can get a useful (new) telescope for much less than $400, and again it isn't so much about the telescope it's ALL ABOUT HOW STURDY THE MOUNT IS. Increase the magnification you want to view at, increase the sturdiness of mount required.

For my money (yes, this IS exactly how I spent my money) you can't beat a Dobsonian mounted reflector (hereafter called a "dob") as best for quality, aperture and sturdiness for the dollars spent. Check out the 150mm (6") and 200 mm (8") aperture models here ($369 & $399 respectively), these are excellent and there are literally scores if not hundreds of happy owners of this brand here in Ice In Space. I have owned both a 10" and 12" from this same manufacturer:

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm
(scroll down about 1/3 of the way)


Binoculars - also a boon to modern astronomy - keep in mind that anything above 10 magnification (that's the 10 x nn bit in the description) will be pretty much unusable due to image wobble if you are trying to just hand hold them. 7 x 50's (50 mm aperture each side) or 10 x 50's are pretty common. For anything larger in magnification, or for simply heavy bino's (my 20 x 80's weigh in at 2.4 kg) you need to consider some sort of monopod, tripod, or other bino-suitable mount.

Try these guys for excellent binos:

http://www.aoe.com.au/astronomical.html
They sell other models of bino's but these are the ones that are recommended for astro use.
(ie do NOT use any with the "ruby / red" front lens coating, in astronomy you WANT to keep the red light, not reflect it away)

Andrews Communications, as mentioned above for dob's, also sell bino's, many are thge same model as sold by AOE.
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-11.htm

Hope you find this useful!

[boundless]

I'm looking for a great pair of binoculas for my Dad as a Christmas present. He loves going to the horse racing and also cricket where he wants to see the players up close and also doesn't mind people spotting.

I need a pair that he can pick out players/spectators from one side of a large sporting ground (e.g. MCG) to the other.

Any suggestions of the magnification needed?

Cheers

[erick (Eric)]

Boundless, please email the guys at AOE (www.aoe.com.au) and ask them.

I think that the required magnification may be 15 times or more, which is above easy hand-held binoculars, but maybe I'm being pessimistic.

I've seen pictures of horse-racing (you know movies etc.) where people in the posh boxes seem to be using 7x or 8x binoculars - but the race callers are using 15x or 20x which are firmly fixed on mounts.

Let us know what you find out.
Eric

Originally Posted by boundless

I'm looking for a great pair of binoculas for my Dad as a Christmas present. He loves going to the horse racing and also cricket where he wants to see the players up close and also doesn't mind people spotting.

I need a pair that he can pick out players/spectators from one side of a large sporting ground (e.g. MCG) to the other.

Any suggestions of the magnification needed?

Cheers

[Clarry (Clayton)]

As I had today off I decided to head over to Andrews Communication in Greystanes to have a look at the scopes on offer. The chap there was great. He spent some time showing me the various scopes on display, how to use them & so on. Unfortunately he didn't have Guan Sheng GS-680 in store for me to see but after hearing what he & you people on this forum said about it I decided to buy. So tomorrow it will be delivered with a green filter for the moon & a Collimator. I can't wait. I have to say the 8"ers are much bigger and more impressive than I imagined.
To think a few days ago I was considering wasteing $80 on an Aldi telescope and here I am now, about to take delivery of something that I'm sure will give me many hundreds of hours of pleasure as well as a better knowledge of my galaxy.
Thank you folks.

[erick (Eric)]

Clayton. We await your first light report. And there are a lot of folk to answer more questions and show you what to do and how to do.

[stattonb (Statton)]

i have brought many scopes from andrews and i would recommend if u are just startin in this hobby to invest in a 8" scope from them

[Ian Robinson]

Well , why not a good sized pair of binoculars to start off .

Up to 20x80s can be hand held - I have a pair and I hand hold them , usually and they give stunning views of night time objects . If you decide astronomy isn't for you , you've got a nice pair of field binos for spying on the harbour, the beach and ....

If you want to view the planets and take a really good look at the moon .... no option but a telescope .... a dob up to about 10" diameter would be the go (just beware of coma - the bugbear of newtonian based reflectors - distorts the image away from the centre of the field of view - particularly noticeable with low power eyepieces (wide apparent field of view). A nice sized dob would be the best way to go as a started - more bang for you $ compared with SCTs, Makcasses , and very much better value for money than a refractor (especially APOs).

Bigger the light collecting objective - the better the resolution (detail) and the fainter the objects (magnitude) you can see.

Dob's or newts bigger than 10" a bit of an effort to move about , and no longer are all that easily portable - especially if you will be taking it places in the car to get dark unpolluted skies.

If you buy a dob - consider as one of your first accessories a coma corrector lens and an upgrade to a low profile 2" crayford focusor - rack and pinions focusors and helical focusors are bad news.

I'd suggest you hold off on buying a scope with a gem, it'll make things complicated and may turn you off unless you are technically ready for it (ie want to photograph stuff).

Another option is to bypass buying a telescope initially if you are mostly interested in deep space and comets and star fields etc (wide angle stuff) , already have a nice camera and some zooms or telephoto lenses and to simply buy modest but solid equatorial mount with at least dual axis drives) and bung the camera on the GEM and start taking shortish exposures - maybe a minute or two with fast film or a highish digital camera ASA speed setting (800 ?). You'd need a LPF if the yard is in an area that is light polluted.
You can progress to guided imaging easy enough pretty quickly and cheaply later as you chase those fainter objects or move to lenses with longer focal lengths (100mm , 200mm , 300mm ....etc). Ypu'd be amazed what you can record in a minute or two on film or digitally (and if the tracking is good enough images can be stacked and processed to show truely incredible images once you learn the tricks).

[rayman888 (Ray)]

Originally Posted by Gargoyle_Steve

For my money (yes, this IS exactly how I spent my money) you can't beat a Dobsonian mounted reflector (hereafter called a "dob") as best for quality, aperture and sturdiness for the dollars spent. Check out the 150mm (6") and 200 mm (8") aperture models here ($369 & $399 respectively), these are excellent and there are literally scores if not hundreds of happy owners of this brand here in Ice In Space. I have owned both a 10" and 12" from this same manufacturer:

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm
(scroll down about 1/3 of the way)

Can I confirm that these telescopes are the Guan Sheng 6" and 8" dob?

Is that brand better than Skywatcher or Celestron in terms of quality, both of the OTA, glass used, EPs and mount construction when comparing equatorial mounted reflector (5" and above) rather than dob? Or would you suggest another brand? ATM I have a 127mm Celestron short tube reflector which I'm thinking of returning.

Thanks.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by boundless

the Aldi telescope. I think you are playing us for fools.

These cheap department store telescopes (Aldi, Dick Smith, Big W, K Mart, Australian Geographic, plus many others) are commonly referred to as XTT's. Xmas Trash Telescopes.

They are completely useless for anything other than using as a weight source to anchor your boat.

1)The finderscope mounting brackets are terrible and never retain alignment with the main scope.

2)The finderscope itself is useless and almost impossible to locate any target in.

3)If you do happen to find a target in the finderscope its alignment will have moved and the target will not be in the field of view of the main scope.

4)If you do get lucky and find a target in the main scope the mounts are so flimsy, when you accidently bump the leg of the tripod the target will have moved 3 universes from the field of view, never to be found again.

5)About the only thing you will ever find in one of these scopes is the moon and bright planets.

6)The supplied eyepieces are of abyssmal quality and suitable to throw into the lake.

7)The optical quality of the main scope is horrid and even with high quality eyepieces the views will be poor.

Save your money.

Buy a "decent" pair of binoculars (8x 42's, 10x42's or 10x50's), or an 8" dobsonian reflector, as already indicated. Importantly, buy it from somewhere that specialises in selling optical equipment and astronomical telescopes.

Cheers,
John B

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by rayman888

Can I confirm that these telescopes are the Guan Sheng 6" and 8" dob?

Is that brand better than Skywatcher or Celestron in terms of quality, both of the OTA, glass used, EPs and mount construction when comparing equatorial mounted reflector (5" and above) rather than dob? Or would you suggest another brand? ATM I have a 127mm Celestron short tube reflector which I'm thinking of returning.

Thanks.

Think you'll find the mass produced small scopers (dobs , scts and achros and apos) are pretty much of a muchness quality wize and put side by side with compeditor scopes same size and type are pretty much indistinquishable optically - it's the mounts (rockers and bases, and tube hardware where the biggest differences will be) where the biggest differences are to be found - buying a brandname is not a guarantee of better quality - plenty of big brand small scopes are lemons.. The bigger companies take advantage of the fact that most beginners do not know what to expect and know bugger all about telescopes when that buy these telescopes.

I would suggest that it may be well worth your trouble to join a club first and get along to viewing nights (this way you can :
1) talk with experienced amateurs
2) get to look through a range of scopes
3) maybe befriend someone who will come with you and help you select the right scope for you rather than being led astray by a salesperson who is interested in quick sale.
4) visit the shops a few times without your wollet or credit card and give the scopes you are considering a thorough examination and ask LOTS of questions (if you aren't sure or don't know something - ASK the staff.
and
5) read reviews of scopes under consideration.
6) NEVER EVER BUY ON IMPULSE. (plenty of people have bought scopes on an impulse and regretted their choice at their leisure).

Problem with mass produced scopes is that compromises are made with the figure ( you are probably looking at not much better than 1/4 wave ??? precision - takes a lot of effort and time to get the optics to premium quality figures = $ , and cheaper materials are used in the tube , the rocker box and base , and some even try to pass off cheap and nasty focusors).

In my opinion it pays to source the components of your desired telescope (and build your own OTA and dob mount) .... you'll wind up the perfect telescope for you rather than a compromise that you may be dissatisfied with.
Plenty of places who supply top quality primary and secondary mirrors, mirror cells (made of metal with multiple points of flotation) , spiders and secondary holders, and focusors.
The tune can be made from a range of materials (I originally used formatube for my 10" newt ( after a few years of exposure to damp nights and being used" it became pretty daggy looking ) - and am now moving to a PVC stormwater pipe 316mm OD which is pretty rigid and most importantly moisture proof , and if you are handy with carpentry tools you can make a first class dob mount from marine grade ply that will look great and will be an object of pride for many years.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

I would suggest that it may be well worth your trouble to join a club first and get along to viewing nights (this way you can :
1) talk with experienced amateurs
2) get to look through a range of scopes
3) maybe befriend someone who will come with you and help you select the right scope for you rather than being led astray by a salesperson who is interested in quick sale.
4) visit the shops a few times without your wollet or credit card and give the scopes you are considering a thorough examination and ask LOTS of questions (if you aren't sure or don't know something - ASK the staff.
and
5) read reviews of scopes under consideration.
6) NEVER EVER BUY ON IMPULSE. (plenty of people have bought scopes on an impulse and regretted their choice at their leisure).

All good advice

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Problem with mass produced scopes is that compromises are made with the figure ( you are probably looking at not much better than 1/4 wave ???

Whilst that is generally true of cheaper mass produced scopes the optical quality of the GSO dobs is outstanding, particularly considering the price. The optics are pretty reasonable irrespective of price. I have used countless GSO dobs and have seen several with outstanding optics and most have been good to very good. I haven't seen one GSO dob that had bad optics. I have seen several that needed some slight tuning optically and mechanically, which any experienced club person would be happy to assist with.

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

In my opinion it pays to source the components of your desired telescope (and build your own OTA and dob mount) .... you'll wind up the perfect telescope for you rather than a compromise that you may be dissatisfied with.
Plenty of places who supply top quality primary and secondary mirrors, mirror cells (made of metal with multiple points of flotation) , spiders and secondary holders, and focusors.

Whilst this is good advice for an experienced observer, it isn't necessarily appropriate for someone buying their first telescope. The $399 8" GSO dob will give outstanding performance relative to its price and will keep any beginner happy for at least a year to 18 months, probably longer. At that time the person can either upgrade or build their own and sell the GSO scope at a small loss only. It is pointless a beginner who may only last a few weeks or months in the hobby spending a lot of money and even more time in a scope that they will never recoup their costs on, particularly if they only last 5 minutes in the hobby. Darkplagues' beautiful custom built 16" truss dob with Suchting mirror, which he offered for sale for $2,750 despite the Suchting 16" mirror costing $3,500 alone; is testament to this. What a deal, a Moonlite focuser and a complete Obsession clone for $-750 back in the bank.

You only build them if you know for certain, you're gonna keep them. That doesn't apply to a beginner buying their first scope !

Cheers,
John B

[rayman888 (Ray)]

Originally Posted by ausastronomer

Whilst that is generally true of cheaper mass produced scopes the optical quality of the GSO dobs is outstanding, particularly considering the price. The optics are pretty reasonable irrespective of price. I have used countless GSO dobs and have seen several with outstanding optics and most have been good to very good. I haven't seen one GSO dob that had bad optics. I have seen several that needed some slight tuning optically and mechanically, which any experienced club person would be happy to assist with.

The $399 8" GSO dob will give outstanding performance relative to its price and will keep any beginner happy for at least a year to 18 months, probably longer.

Cheers,
John B

I presume GSO stands for Guan Sheng optics, No?

Is the 8" GSO dob (A$399) better than their GS-500 6" f/5 150mm x 750mm reflector on SV1 equatorial mount with tripod at A$499 (from Andrews)? Having used an equatorial mount and looking at the pictured dob mount, I suspect I would prefer the EQ mount better. It seems to track better. I did use a celestron alt./az. mount (on their 50mm refractor at $58!) and find it very frustrating to point at a celestrial object, very jerky. Am I correct in that assumption about the eq mount? Does the dob mount track just as well, or indeed does it track at all? Note that I don't have a dob, so haven't used one yet. I need to make a decision whether to return my purchase soon.

Sorry, if I come across as a noob 'cos I'm indeed a noob here! LOL.

BTW, are those new collapsible dobs by Skywatcher any good. They have an 8" 200mm x 1200mm for A$599, $200 more than the GSO 8" dob!

[dannat (Daniel)]

ray, the dob mount is essentially alt/az which you need to push/pull etc to move the scope. It does not track unless you buy an add-on which is expensive (ot more than scope itself). that said set up time is basically putting on the ground.
An eq mount has controls whereby you turn the knob to keep the object viewed in view, but in order to do this you need to spends some time getting the mount aligned to the south celesstial pole in the sky.this initially takes some time but gets quicker with practice

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by rayman888

I presume GSO stands for Guan Sheng optics, No?

Is the 8" GSO dob (A$399) better than their GS-500 6" f/5 150mm x 750mm reflector on SV1 equatorial mount with tripod at A$499 (from Andrews)? Having used an equatorial mount and looking at the pictured dob mount, I suspect I would prefer the EQ mount better. It seems to track better. I did use a celestron alt./az. mount (on their 50mm refractor at $58!) and find it very frustrating to point at a celestrial object, very jerky. Am I correct in that assumption about the eq mount? Does the dob mount track just as well, or indeed does it track at all? Note that I don't have a dob, so haven't used one yet. I need to make a decision whether to return my purchase soon.

Sorry, if I come across as a noob 'cos I'm indeed a noob here! LOL.

BTW, are those new collapsible dobs by Skywatcher any good. They have an 8" 200mm x 1200mm for A$599, $200 more than the GSO 8" dob!

Hi,

Yes GSO stands for Guan Sheng Optics. It is the scope sold by Andrews Communications, BINTEL etc.

You cannot compare a cheap flimsy alt/az mount to a dob mount. There is absolutely no comparison between the two, except they both have horizontal and vertical axes, as the direction in which the scope moves. The dob mount is infinitely easier to set up. It is easier to locate and aim to an object, and subsequently to steer the telescope. They are simplicity itself. They also make it very easy to hand track objects, which is quite difficult with the Celestron alt/az mount you are referring to.

Unfortunately a decent equatorial mount costs a lot of money. Over $1,000 plus for a decent chinese made one. $3,000 plus for a high quality US or Japanese made one. With the cheaper equatorial mounts which are packaged with the cheaper scopes, the mount quality is very poor and the mount is generally inadequate to properly carry the weight load of the telescope that's put on it. This makes them unstable and wobble for long periods every time you touch the scope to focus etc. It subsequently can put the object out of the FOV. In addition the 8"/F6 dob will show you infinitely more optically than the 6"/F5 telescope could ever hope to do. With the 8" dob package you have about $350 going into the scope and optics and about $50 into the mount. The mount is cheap because they can be mass produced on CNC machines from chipboard laminate and they are very simple, with minimal moving parts. With the 6"/F5 SV1 package you have about $200 going into the scope and optics and about $300 going into a very inadequte equatorial mount. A cheap poor quality equatorial mount is a lesson in frustration. Particularly when the scope is undermounted. That's what you get with a 6"/F5 newt on an SV1 mount. You would also find it infinitely more difficult to point any equatorial mount directly to a target (unless it has goto), than you will with any dob mount.

Having used both types of scope over many years, I would be buying the 8" dob in a flash.

Cheers,
John B

[shelltree (Shelley)]

Originally Posted by erick

ps. Look in this thread about a book called "Heavens Above". Well worth it for someone scanning the sky with binoculars and starting from knowledge level zero like I did.

I can definitely vouch for this book, it is absolutely amazing! So very simple to read, written like a conversation with a fellow observer with helpful and easy diagrams of constellations and directions to particular objects. Written up in order of constellation so you can look for a huge range of things in the one constellation. Even directions (with diagrams) to find the South Celestial Pole etc.

I'm still a newbie and found this book very easy to use and it helped me find a heap of things I had never thought to look for before! I'd also suggest covering it with clear plastic covering as the front page isn't very glossy and will be affected by the dew!

[Suzy]

Originally Posted by Clarry

As I had today off I decided to head over to Andrews Communication in Greystanes to have a look at the scopes on offer. The chap there was great. He spent some time showing me the various scopes on display, how to use them & so on. Unfortunately he didn't have Guan Sheng GS-680 in store for me to see but after hearing what he & you people on this forum said about it I decided to buy. So tomorrow it will be delivered with a green filter for the moon & a Collimator. I can't wait. I have to say the 8"ers are much bigger and more impressive than I imagined.
To think a few days ago I was considering wasteing $80 on an Aldi telescope and here I am now, about to take delivery of something that I'm sure will give me many hundreds of hours of pleasure as well as a better knowledge of my galaxy.
Thank you folks.

Well done Clayton!
Looking forward to your first light report.
Oh and I nearly forgot, to our forum.
You did well- you consulted the advice of people in the know and bought on good judgement. You will be very happy with your purchase, trust me.

Once you get your scope and are ready for your first light, try out these gems - they are often suggested for people just starting out as they are so spectacular, and let's face it, when we get our first scope, we want to be hit the awesomeness right on that very first night don't we?!

This list is courtesy of Rob H which I pulled out and quoted from another thread...

Try...
alpha Centauri (brilliant binary)
Albireo (beta Cygni) (beautiful orange/blue pair)
omega Centauri (most spectacular globular cluster)
47 Tucanae (also most spectacular globular cluster)
M22 (globular cluster in Sagittarius)
M13 (Hercules Globular Cluster)
M6 (Butterfly Cluster in Scorpius, not too far from M7)
M11 (Wild Duck Cluster in Scutum)
eta Carinae nebula
M8 (Lagoon Nebula)
All relatively bright objects.

Regards, Rob

[Mliss (Mel)]

Originally Posted by Suzy

when we get our first scope, we want to be hit the awesomeness right on that very first night don't we?!

that is so true!!

I'm an Andrews fan too, I've been on the phone to them a few times and they're never in a hurry, even with the little questions...not to mention they really know their stuff.

Clayton, you'll love it here!