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  #21  
Old 14-09-2021, 08:54 PM
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kosborn (Kevin)
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Originally Posted by Startrek View Post
Thanks Kevin,
Sorry to pick everyone’s brains and I know that each optical system is different but trying to gather enough data on the 2600MC so I’m not waisting to much time outside capturing and determining the most suitable calibration methods
Capture software ?
Method obtaining your Flats ( white t shirt or not ? ) no of Flats , exposure times and ADU count ?
Thanks
Martin
To take flats I use a white t-shirt with the Esprit 100ED and the Newtonian. For the Esprit I use a laptop screen set to mid grey. For the Newtonian I use sky flats just before sunset (the 10" aperture is too big for the laptop screen). I use SGPro which allows you to set desired ADU (I choose 25000) and then uses a flats calibration wizard to work out the best exposure time for that ADU. I take 40 exposures per filter for the ASI1600mm mono or total 40 exposures for the ASI2600mc colour. The exposure time for the darks of course matches the exposure times for the subs and the exposure times for the flats.
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  #22  
Old 14-09-2021, 09:24 PM
Startrek (Martin)
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To take flats I use a white t-shirt with the Esprit 100ED and the Newtonian. For the Esprit I use a laptop screen set to mid grey. For the Newtonian I use sky flats just before sunset (the 10" aperture is too big for the laptop screen). I use SGPro which allows you to set desired ADU (I choose 25000) and then uses a flats calibration wizard to work out the best exposure time for that ADU. I take 40 exposures per filter for the ASI1600mm mono or total 40 exposures for the ASI2600mc colour. The exposure time for the darks of course matches the exposure times for the subs and the exposure times for the flats.
Thanks Kevin,
Brilliant !!
Martin
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  #23  
Old 15-09-2021, 09:24 AM
Startrek (Martin)
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Paul,


Forgot to ask you a question about your Bias frames ( yourself and Pete are the only folk who use them who replied )

What exposure time setting did you use to take your Bias frames ?
The 2600MC specs show a minimum exposure of 32 micro seconds or 0.000032 sec
This seems awfully quick ?
I don't know whether my capture software APT will register that setting ( Ive posted a query in the APT forum , waiting on an answer from Ivo )



Await your advice



Thanks
Martin
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  #24  
Old 15-09-2021, 01:55 PM
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The_bluester (Paul)
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I set an exposure of 0 seconds with the camera capped and let the driver sort it out, but I have heard of people using exposures of up to several seconds. I don't know how APT behaves for very short exposures. Given the very low dark current you would probably get away with a second or so with everything capped to prevent stray light impacting things.

For a master bias, I used 100 bias frames given that by definition they are very quick to shoot.
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  #25  
Old 15-09-2021, 02:41 PM
Startrek (Martin)
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Originally Posted by The_bluester View Post
I set an exposure of 0 seconds with the camera capped and let the driver sort it out, but I have heard of people using exposures of up to several seconds. I don't know how APT behaves for very short exposures. Given the very low dark current you would probably get away with a second or so with everything capped to prevent stray light impacting things.

For a master bias, I used 100 bias frames given that by definition they are very quick to shoot.
Paul,
Thanks again
Cheers
Martin
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  #26  
Old 15-09-2021, 09:12 PM
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Thanks Craig,
Great information
I use the Optolong L Extreme duel band to image emission Nebula and the 2600MC has a UV/ IR protective window so I can expect longer exposures using this arrangement.
Your 533MC has a 14bit ADU ie: max ADU of 32,768 so applying 50% would be around 16,400 ADU. Choosing higher at 20,000 ADU at the same illumination level would take a longer exposure , right ??
Cheers
Martin
I use the L-extreme too, although my OTA is f7 and your newt's should be faster - unsure if OTA f/ratio impacts flats exposure time but I assume it would, so my 8s is partly because of the relative slowness of the Esprit 120 I suppose.

You're right about the ADU target, perhaps a target of 20,000 is too high for the sensor, although it does not appear to cause any issues. I often shoot flats but have never once actually needed to use them, it's more of a "just in case" I'll try 16,400 next time and see how it goes. Cheers I use an iPad with a white tshirt over the dew shield by the way, although with the standard 10.5" iPad it doesn't actually cover the entire dew shield (about 2-3mm of uncovered dew shield on the short side) but does not appear to have caused issues either.
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  #27  
Old 16-09-2021, 07:53 AM
Startrek (Martin)
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To add more confusion to the topic of Calibration, I received a recommendation / suggestion on the APT forum by a member to use the following method -

Calibrate your Flats with Dark Flats

Don’t calibrate your Darks or Dark Flats , you only integrate them into a Master Dark and Master Dark Flat

You then calibrate your Flats using the Master Dark Flat , instead of using the Master Dark , and then integrate your Flats into a Master Flat

To clarify my understanding of the Calibration terminology -

Calibrate means to stack your Light frames with specific calibration frames ( dark, flat , dark flat or bias or alternatively a Master ) ?

Master means create a stacked file of the same type of calibration frame to be used with your Light frames in final stacking process ?

Integrate means to stack 2 types of calibration frames to form a single stack Master calibration file ?

Appreciate advice and confirmation on the above ( by the way I use Deep Sky Stacker )

Whoosh ........,



Thanks
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  #28  
Old 16-09-2021, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Startrek View Post
Paul,


Forgot to ask you a question about your Bias frames ( yourself and Pete are the only folk who use them who replied )

What exposure time setting did you use to take your Bias frames ?
The 2600MC specs show a minimum exposure of 32 micro seconds or 0.000032 sec
This seems awfully quick ?
I don't know whether my capture software APT will register that setting ( Ive posted a query in the APT forum , waiting on an answer from Ivo )



Await your advice



Thanks
Martin
That's the shortest exposure the camera can take. I tried it the other night in NINA. I set the exposure to 0 and it shoots at 0.000032.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Startrek View Post
To add more confusion to the topic of Calibration, I received a recommendation / suggestion on the APT forum by a member to use the following method -

Calibrate your Flats with Dark Flats

Don’t calibrate your Darks or Dark Flats , you only integrate them into a Master Dark and Master Dark Flat

You then calibrate your Flats using the Master Dark Flat , instead of using the Master Dark , and then integrate your Flats into a Master Flat

To clarify my understanding of the Calibration terminology -

Calibrate means to stack your Light frames with specific calibration frames ( dark, flat , dark flat or bias or alternatively a Master ) ?

Master means create a stacked file of the same type of calibration frame to be used with your Light frames in final stacking process ?

Integrate means to stack 2 types of calibration frames to form a single stack Master calibration file ?

Appreciate advice and confirmation on the above ( by the way I use Deep Sky Stacker )

Whoosh ........,



Thanks
^ I totally don't get that. I just chuck all of my lights and whatever calibration frames I use into Deep Sky Stacker and let it do the work.
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  #29  
Old 16-09-2021, 08:32 AM
Startrek (Martin)
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Originally Posted by AdamJL View Post
That's the shortest exposure the camera can take. I tried it the other night in NINA. I set the exposure to 0 and it shoots at 0.000032.




^ I totally don't get that. I just chuck all of my lights and whatever calibration frames I use into Deep Sky Stacker and let it do the work.
Adam,
Thanks
Me neither.....
I’m reading to much on different forums and coming with different methods and opinions all the time , one says this one says that ........
It’s either I do a PhD in Calibration at MIT or just experiment with Calibration frames until I get a good result
Cheers
Martin
Post and Thread ended !
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  #30  
Old 16-09-2021, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Startrek View Post
To add more confusion to the topic of Calibration, I received a recommendation / suggestion on the APT forum by a member to use the following method -

Calibrate your Flats with Dark Flats

Don’t calibrate your Darks or Dark Flats , you only integrate them into a Master Dark and Master Dark Flat

You then calibrate your Flats using the Master Dark Flat , instead of using the Master Dark , and then integrate your Flats into a Master Flat

To clarify my understanding of the Calibration terminology -

Calibrate means to stack your Light frames with specific calibration frames ( dark, flat , dark flat or bias or alternatively a Master ) ?

Master means create a stacked file of the same type of calibration frame to be used with your Light frames in final stacking process ?

Integrate means to stack 2 types of calibration frames to form a single stack Master calibration file ?

Appreciate advice and confirmation on the above ( by the way I use Deep Sky Stacker )

Whoosh ........,



Thanks
I think different people and different software approaches it differently. But, the idea is that you may need to calibrate your calibration frames.

Eg, darks may be calibrated with bias. Flats may be calibrated with bias or dark flats. Dark flats may be calibrated with bias. Bias is not calibrated by anything. Lights are then calibrated by the masters of all of the above.

Although I don't use PixInsight much the workflow I follow with that is basically - create master bias, create master darks by calibrating from master bias, create master dark flat by calibrating with bias, create master flat by calibrating with master dark flat, then use bias, flat and dark masters (but not dark flat master) to calibrate lights. At least, if memory serves, this was my process.

In APP I just stick all calibration frames into it and it does the work, but if for example I try and make a master flat without adding bias or dark flats it will have a whinge that it needs to calibrate the flats (with bias or dark flat) to make an accurate master flat.

Aside from processing software, individual cameras will also vary in terms of requirements, eg I have heard bias frames do not work with certain cameras, and for example on the 533, I can generally not bother with darks as long as my data is well dithered, as the combo of dithering and pixel rejection algorithms in the integration means that all hot pixels are removed and thermal noise is very low anyway. I have never been able to perceive much, if any, difference with the 533 between a stack from well dithered data sans darks, and the same data with darks.
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  #31  
Old 16-09-2021, 05:23 PM
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OK, my take on the terminology (And workflow) and trying to to make too much war and peace.

"Integration" is commonly used to describe the stacking of multiple light frames, but it is actually more like averaging. Integration builds values up and up over time, the actual exposures are an integration. The longer the exposure or the more photons arriving in a given time, the larger the pixel value and the bigger the difference to random or repeating noise, which will occur less often so does not integrate up as strongly. I think "Stacking" is better terminology.

"Calibration" is done before stacking, and what the calibration frames do depends on what type they are.

Dark, flat and bias frames. You stack these to make master darks, master bias and master flat frames (Include dark-flats here, they are nothing different to a normal dark frame, just the exposures match your fixed length flats)

Master dark, master dark-flat and master bias frames calibrate lights or flats by subtraction. They are subtracted pixel by pixel from light or flat frames. Master darks and dark-flats subtract fixed noise (Read noise) hot pixels and dark current (All predictable and repeatable) Master bias frames subtract only the fixed noise.

A master flat is made up of calibrated flats (With a master dark flat or master bias, depending on camera and preference) divided in to your light frames. Say the centre of the master flat frame has a brightness of 100 and the corners have a brightness of 50, that is 0.5 times the illumination in the middle. The corners would be divided by 0.5 to make them as bright as the middle.

After the calibration frames (Which are applied to each light) you should have lights which don't have read noise (On average) Don't have hot pixels, don't have any dark current and the illumination should be flat from centre to edge. THEN they can be registered and stacked to average out the shot noise and reject outliers!
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  #32  
Old 16-09-2021, 06:35 PM
Startrek (Martin)
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I think different people and different software approaches it differently. But, the idea is that you may need to calibrate your calibration frames.

Eg, darks may be calibrated with bias. Flats may be calibrated with bias or dark flats. Dark flats may be calibrated with bias. Bias is not calibrated by anything. Lights are then calibrated by the masters of all of the above.

Although I don't use PixInsight much the workflow I follow with that is basically - create master bias, create master darks by calibrating from master bias, create master dark flat by calibrating with bias, create master flat by calibrating with master dark flat, then use bias, flat and dark masters (but not dark flat master) to calibrate lights. At least, if memory serves, this was my process.

In APP I just stick all calibration frames into it and it does the work, but if for example I try and make a master flat without adding bias or dark flats it will have a whinge that it needs to calibrate the flats (with bias or dark flat) to make an accurate master flat.

Aside from processing software, individual cameras will also vary in terms of requirements, eg I have heard bias frames do not work with certain cameras, and for example on the 533, I can generally not bother with darks as long as my data is well dithered, as the combo of dithering and pixel rejection algorithms in the integration means that all hot pixels are removed and thermal noise is very low anyway. I have never been able to perceive much, if any, difference with the 533 between a stack from well dithered data sans darks, and the same data with darks.
Thanks Craig
I think next clear night ( hopefully on the weekend with a big ol moon up ) I’ll capture some lights say an hour on a target like M17 , capture my Flats and dark Flats , take some darks and Bias too
Then experiment on calibration with DSS and compare results with various methods
Vignetting and dust donuts are my main issue
I’ve thoroughly cleaned my camera sensor, protective window , coma corrector and L Extreme filter under a led mag lamp ( doesn’t guarantee your free of dust donuts )
Cheers
Martin
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  #33  
Old 16-09-2021, 06:36 PM
Startrek (Martin)
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Originally Posted by The_bluester View Post
OK, my take on the terminology (And workflow) and trying to to make too much war and peace.

"Integration" is commonly used to describe the stacking of multiple light frames, but it is actually more like averaging. Integration builds values up and up over time, the actual exposures are an integration. The longer the exposure or the more photons arriving in a given time, the larger the pixel value and the bigger the difference to random or repeating noise, which will occur less often so does not integrate up as strongly. I think "Stacking" is better terminology.

"Calibration" is done before stacking, and what the calibration frames do depends on what type they are.

Dark, flat and bias frames. You stack these to make master darks, master bias and master flat frames (Include dark-flats here, they are nothing different to a normal dark frame, just the exposures match your fixed length flats)

Master dark, master dark-flat and master bias frames calibrate lights or flats by subtraction. They are subtracted pixel by pixel from light or flat frames. Master darks and dark-flats subtract fixed noise (Read noise) hot pixels and dark current (All predictable and repeatable) Master bias frames subtract only the fixed noise.

A master flat is made up of calibrated flats (With a master dark flat or master bias, depending on camera and preference) divided in to your light frames. Say the centre of the master flat frame has a brightness of 100 and the corners have a brightness of 50, that is 0.5 times the illumination in the middle. The corners would be divided by 0.5 to make them as bright as the middle.

After the calibration frames (Which are applied to each light) you should have lights which don't have read noise (On average) Don't have hot pixels, don't have any dark current and the illumination should be flat from centre to edge. THEN they can be registered and stacked to average out the shot noise and reject outliers!
Paul,
Thanks for the detailed explanation and procedures
Already copied it into my Astro notes
Much appreciated
Martin
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  #34  
Old 16-09-2021, 06:52 PM
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I should add that some programs behave differently. Some programs will subtract master bias information from dark frames if you load a master bias to make a master dark. Astro Pixel Processor does not do that. The master darks do not have master bias information included even if you have a master bias loaded when you make the master dark. From there the light frame calibration depends on what you load. If you load a master bias but no master dark it will subtract the master bias from the light frames, if you load both a master bias and a master dark, it subtracts the master dark, but not the master bias as the master dark contains the bias information as well..
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  #35  
Old 16-09-2021, 09:19 PM
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I should add that some programs behave differently. Some programs will subtract master bias information from dark frames if you load a master bias to make a master dark. Astro Pixel Processor does not do that. The master darks do not have master bias information included even if you have a master bias loaded when you make the master dark. From there the light frame calibration depends on what you load. If you load a master bias but no master dark it will subtract the master bias from the light frames, if you load both a master bias and a master dark, it subtracts the master dark, but not the master bias as the master dark contains the bias information as well..
Paul
Thanks again for the info and heads up
I’ve posted in the Deep Sky Stacker Groups for some relevant information regarding Calibration and my specific situation
It’s quite an extensive topic this calibration, I had no idea of the complexities with different cameras and imaging systems. It’s definitely “NOT” one shoe fits
all.
Cheers
Martin
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  #36  
Old 16-09-2021, 09:54 PM
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No, I am thankful that both versions of the ASI2600 calibrate pretty nicely using the same techniques, when I had the 2600MC and the ASI294 they were very different to calibrate.
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  #37  
Old 17-09-2021, 06:43 AM
Startrek (Martin)
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I sent a post yesterday to the Deep Sky Stacker User Group outlining my complete equipment set ups ,capture software, issues at the moment and recommendations or requirements for Calibration using DSS
Received quite a few replies one of which was from David C Partridge, a DSS Developer
David simply advised for my scenario -
You don’t need Bias frames
Take your Flats
Take your Dark Flats (you may not need them but take them anyway)
If your Dithering in APT , you probably don’t need Darks ( he’s right as I dither and have not seen any difference with or without the use of Darks )
Load the frames and that’s it

Just need some clear nights now
Cheers
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  #38  
Old 17-09-2021, 08:52 AM
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If your Dithering in APT , you probably don’t need Darks
That's a very good point Martin

Best
JA
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  #39  
Old 17-09-2021, 02:00 PM
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While it would probably get pretty decent results, I don't 100% agree with that approach.

Master darks will get rid of most hot pixels without relying on dithering and outlier rejection. Dither and outlier rejection works pretty well too, but if you have pixels with offsets or with more dark current than others, they will get rejected as outliers where using a good master dark might salvage them. Will the difference be visible? Don't know!

Bias frames are the quickest and easiest of the calibration frame types to shoot. It is easy to generate a good master bias for whatever gain and offset settings you are going to use.

If you calibrate your flats with dark-flats, that is fine and will work well, but your flats need to be a matching exposure time. Cameras that produce good bias frames (Which the 2600 does) allow you to shoot flats of varying exposure times and calibrate them with a master bias to get rid of read noise.

I tried an experiment just now. I created two master flats from a recent nights flat frames, one with the master bias and one without, then I loaded both as light frames, and as darks (So they straight subtracted one from the other) When each one was calibrated by the same one, black screen, when calibrated by the other, the attached grey crosshatch is the result.

Then I unloaded them as darks and loaded them as flats, the most visible one was the flat created without bias calibrated by the flat created with bias. The other way round produces a negative image of this and it does not stand out as much.

As always though, if you shoot flats and are happy with the results without calibrating them with dark-flats or bias, feel free to ignore me and continue! With my old 294, you really HAD to use master darks and HAD to calibrate flats with dark-flats or the results really suffered, the 2600 (Both MM and MC) is not nearly as fussy, there are some images I shot with my refractor and 2600MC that I didn't bother using flats for, I just cropped in a little to where the vignetting was not visible.
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  #40  
Old 17-09-2021, 03:30 PM
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I’ve never had to use darks , flats and other calibration frames at my dark site ( Bortle 3 ) on the South Coast as vignetting and gradients ( minimal ) are easily handled by my processing software Startools ( with or without NB filter and regardless of exposure lengths ) as this camera has almost zero amp glow and almost negligible dark current at -10C.
However since returning back to Bortle 8 Sydney skies ( with neighbours backyard and side flood lights on all night ) recently after being away for nearly 4 months , the Vignetting , dust donuts and gradients are a real problem when imaging targets like galaxies and globs etc... without a filter ( the 2600MC has a UV/ IR protective window , so in effect a Lum filter ) Even using the L Extreme filter requires additional work in processing to minimise these issues but no where near as bad as without a filter.
So now I’m going to have to take Flats to help mitigate these issues , something I’ve never had to do before. Also I believe the Skyglow in Sydney is getting worse year by year which is so evident.
Question: In regard to my 2600MC should I be taking Flats and Dark Flats to Calibrate in DSS or just Flats only.
In addition,I’ve read in a few forums that Bias frames are not usually required in CMOS cameras like the 2600MC , they are more useful in the older CCD type cameras

Any advice on the above would be very much appreciated

Thanks

The advantage of bias frames is to be able to scale your darks. That means each frame is measured scaled to match. That way a 10 minute dark could correct a 5 minute exposure.

I use same length exposure darks but tend to only use 2 exposure lengths - 300 and 600 seconds.

As far as flats go I subtract a bias from the flat and that is working fine.

In fact I treat my QHY600m the same as my CCDs in all ways and its working fine.

Lower model sensors with amp glow and perhaps oddball issues like uneven flats mean more care is needed with calibration files.

I have even used calibration files from a different read out mode with different gain and offset and it still seemed to work.

But my opinion is for best results use exactly matching calibration files with same temperature, same exposure length, with flats, bias and darks plus
same readout mode (for QHY) and same gain and offset.

So a couple more things to make sure they are the same compared to CCD.

On some of my scopes (AP RHA) I don't get vignetting even with the full frame sensor so flats are not super important. Darks also may not be cleaning much if you use dithered subs. But dithering is also important as there are some random hot pixels with these CMOS sensors it seems and that cleans them up.

I have not seen horizontal banding cause any issues so far with the settings I have settled on except maybe a dim Ha sub and I was only after the small amount of Ha in a galaxy shot. So it was easy to make it go below visibility.

All in all very clean and easy to uses sensors. Only caveat so far is to not blow out the star colours which can occur easily compared to CCD where the star colours retain more easily and tend to be more colourful as a result. Its a result of the high QE of the CMOS sensors and the relatively smaller well depth.

I see these sensors in 2 tiers. Those with amp glow and less than 16 bits and those with no amp glow and 16 bits. These are like superior CCDs.
The amp glow sensors are still very very good but simply not in the same league for ease of use. Amp glow is another thing that can go wrong in an already complicated game.

Greg.
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