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Old 15-09-2021, 12:33 PM
Gasmanwill (Will)
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First Saturn

Hi All

Here is my first "good seeing" Saturn , taken just before the previous Jupiter shot.

best 1% of 100,000 frames in as3, registax and PS

LX200ACF 10"
PM x2
ASI462
Baader UV/IR cut

looking for all and any feedback good and bad please
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Click for full-size image (Saturn Sep2 p30 x8b.png)
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Old 15-09-2021, 12:51 PM
evltoy (Wayne)
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The 10" Meade is doing well for you. keep up the good work
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Old 15-09-2021, 01:01 PM
Gasmanwill (Will)
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The 10" Meade is doing well for you. keep up the good work

thanks mate, seems to be working out so far !
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Old 15-09-2021, 01:21 PM
Dave882 (David)
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Wow great result! 100,000 frames is off the chart- I assume it was quite a long vid! I reckon in good seeing you could probably use more than 1% of your frames and a slightly shorter video around 3min and somewhere between 10-30% of best frames which might help bring out some crisper detail. But at the end of the day- the results speak for themselves so well done mate
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Old 15-09-2021, 01:30 PM
Gasmanwill (Will)
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Wow great result! 100,000 frames is off the chart- I assume it was quite a long vid! I reckon in good seeing you could probably use more than 1% of your frames and a slightly shorter video around 3min and somewhere between 10-30% of best frames which might help bring out some crisper detail. But at the end of the day- the results speak for themselves so well done mate
Thanks Dave
Yup the seeing wasn't so good but it was running at just over 120fps so it was somewhere around 12 mins and i had been reading that 10 mins was ok for sat?

i could try to reprocess it at 30% of frames and see what happens... provided my laptop doesnt explode!!
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Old 15-09-2021, 01:53 PM
evltoy (Wayne)
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Wow. 12mins of capture is a lot and a damn big file too
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Old 15-09-2021, 03:10 PM
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multiweb (Marc)
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If it's AI free it's pretty neat.
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Old 16-09-2021, 08:59 PM
Mickoid (Michael)
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AI or not, this is still a very pleasingly processed image of Saturn. I assume you did this in Topaz as well and I would say the program has done a fine job. Looks pretty natural unlike your Jupiter shot which, although impressive at first glance, didn't look quite right. Saturn looks a bit dark so I downloaded your image and played with the levels in Photoshop and it came up a treat. Just wanted to see how good your data was. Keep up the good work, you're more than heading in the right direction with the set up and methods you're using.
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Old 19-09-2021, 09:50 AM
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AI or not, this is still a very pleasingly processed image of Saturn. I assume you did this in Topaz as well and I would say the program has done a fine job.
Well it depends if you want to show something pleasing or something real. I prefer the latter. If Topaz AI is used then you're adding to and changing the original signal with external input. You're not digging out existing underlying details from your own. The loop is broken. In the end it all comes down to the integrity of the process. The day Topaz AI is trained on a database of astro photographs everyone will be able to have Hubble like images shot with a 4" refractor.
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Old 19-09-2021, 12:48 PM
Mickoid (Michael)
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I know where you're coming from Marc and I agree - partly. I guess I'm also thinking of shots using the Hubble palette, starless views of nebulae, planetary shots with their overexposed moons combined in the scene. They all look pleasing but are they representative of what came through the OTA to the sensor? Photography is an art and can be a form of science as well. I personally like to keep things as natural looking as I can but also fall into the trap of over sharpening or over saturating my shots to make them look pleasing. It's a fine line and defining 'real' is difficult, defining 'art' is conjectural.
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Old 19-09-2021, 01:34 PM
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I know where you're coming from Marc and I agree - partly. I guess I'm also thinking of shots using the Hubble palette, starless views of nebulae, planetary shots with their overexposed moons combined in the scene. They all look pleasing but are they representative of what came through the OTA to the sensor? Photography is an art and can be a form of science as well. I personally like to keep things as natural looking as I can but also fall into the trap of over sharpening or over saturating my shots to make them look pleasing. It's a fine line and defining 'real' is difficult, defining 'art' is conjectural.
All good questions.

The HST palette is an arbitrary assignment of line emission data to color channels or blend when you state you're doing a 50/50 bicolor, usually the green channel being the data mix, the other two red and blue being the full data respectively. There is nothing wrong in doing that. If you further mask and change the color balance and start mixing color channels to suit then it enters the realm of art. Because you're no longer representing the accurate distribution of gas in the nebulae and the physical processes that are at work. But if that floats your boat then go for it as long as you're upfront about what you're doing and are aware it doesn't really mean anything anymore. It's become your personal rendition and it is no longer rooted in science.

My understanding is that as soon as you stretch data and it's non linear it has no scientific value. We all stretch our dynamic range trying to show as much as we can without it looking too stupid and HDR it all and "respecting the light". So the balance is subjective and already an interpretation of what the real data is for the sake of displaying it. We're not changing the data. Only stretching it.

Then comes the noise reduction, sharpening and possibly star removal. That can create processing artefacts if you overdo it. If you do it manually or with the appropriate software then it's called processing the data. If you use software such as Starnet++, DenoiseAI, SharpenAI, then you let the software introduce new data that didn't exist in your original signal based on what it was trained on. Mostly terrestrial shots. Again if that floats your boat go for it. But be aware it's fake and be upfront.

Now ask yourself why do you spend hours outside at night capturing photons if you're going to discard them in the post processing stage and let a piece of software substitute them so it looks cool? Sounds a bit counter-intuitive. I think people who use TopazAI like what they see. It gives them an edge because most don't disclose it. It's becoming harder to see what's real or not. You just have to look at Cloudy Nights, but mostly Astrobin where even some people judging shots are "AI evangelists".

I like looking at a shot not having to wonder if it's legit.
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Old 19-09-2021, 08:07 PM
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I'm with you all the way Marc, having spent over 50yrs using film.
If you should ever look at one of my images, you won't have to wonder, as all my processing[such as it is] is carried out in DSS.
raymo
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Old 20-09-2021, 12:52 AM
Gasmanwill (Will)
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If it's AI free it's pretty neat.
Yes Marc actually it is entirely AI free, thank you for your compliment.

Please do not label me as an AI guy and feel that whenever you look at my work again you need to question if there is AI in the processing. I have listened to and heeded your advice. You may not realise but your comment has influenced others to also assume I used topaz in this shot.
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Old 20-09-2021, 12:58 AM
Gasmanwill (Will)
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AI or not, this is still a very pleasingly processed image of Saturn. I assume you did this in Topaz as well and I would say the program has done a fine job. Looks pretty natural unlike your Jupiter shot which, although impressive at first glance, didn't look quite right. Saturn looks a bit dark so I downloaded your image and played with the levels in Photoshop and it came up a treat. Just wanted to see how good your data was. Keep up the good work, you're more than heading in the right direction with the set up and methods you're using.
Thank you Mickoid for your encouragement, I agree it is on the dark side but Im glad to hear that it passed your data test!!

Following Marcs advice about my “first Jupiter” I would like to say for the record that this was not run through Topaz!

Will
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Old 20-09-2021, 06:57 AM
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Yes Marc actually it is entirely AI free, thank you for your compliment.

Please do not label me as an AI guy and feel that whenever you look at my work again you need to question if there is AI in the processing. I have listened to and heeded your advice. You may not realise but your comment has influenced others to also assume I used topaz in this shot.
Then it is a beautiful shot. Well done again.
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Old 20-09-2021, 12:00 PM
Gasmanwill (Will)
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Then it is a beautiful shot. Well done again.
Thanks Mark


Thank you for your feedback and encouragement. I look forward to showing you more images in the future.

I Pmd you this am, did it come through?

Will
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Old 20-09-2021, 12:05 PM
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Thanks Mark


Thank you for your feedback and encouragement. I look forward to showing you more images in the future.

I Pmd you this am, did it come through?

Will
Looking forward to them.
Nope. No PM received
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Old 03-10-2021, 01:36 PM
Goraax (Goran)
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Brilliant! I struggle to get Saturn, not well at least.
I'm thinking I need an ADC.
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