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Old 17-01-2015, 09:29 PM
va1erian
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Recommend an observer's chair ?

I recently bought a Celestron refractor 90 mm diameter with the GO-TO function. I now need a chair with an adjustable height.

Bintel sells one for $179, http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories...oductview.aspx

and Andrews Communications sells another one, Skywatcher-branded, for $169, http://www.andrewscom.com.au/images/...s/sw-chair.jpg

In my opinion, they are too flimsy for that price.

Is there anything else ? Do you use something else, like a step ladder ?

To be honest, I find a need for a chair to be only mild. I am not sitting while changing and manipulating eyepieces. Then I focus onto a planet or constellation, marvel at it for few seconds, and move on to the next item on my agenda. What am I doing wrong ?
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Old 17-01-2015, 09:43 PM
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creeksky (Pete)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by va1erian View Post
I recently bought a Celestron refractor 90 mm diameter with the GO-TO function. I now need a chair with an adjustable height.

Bintel sells one for $179, http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories...oductview.aspx

and Andrews Communications sells another one, Skywatcher-branded, for $169, http://www.andrewscom.com.au/images/...s/sw-chair.jpg

In my opinion, they are too flimsy for that price.

Is there anything else ? Do you use something else, like a step ladder ?

To be honest, I find a need for a chair to be only mild. I am not sitting while changing and manipulating eyepieces. Then I focus onto a planet or constellation, marvel at it for few seconds, and move on to the next item on my agenda. What am I doing wrong ?
Maybe you could try a guitar stool google -swamp, guitar chair $ 84.aud
I had trouble too, but got my 8 inch dob to a good height so I could stand upright, with a computer chair to sit back in awe for awhile and study "maps".
It's realy good if you are able to swing around, all over the sky standing, must be like aerobics?
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Old 17-01-2015, 10:20 PM
glend (Glen)
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Just build a cheap Denver Chair, plans available online.
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Old 17-01-2015, 10:59 PM
va1erian
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Gee, so it is called Denver Chair, and the drawings are available even from IIS, http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-10-0-0-1-0.html
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Old 18-01-2015, 02:00 AM
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wavelandscott (Scott)
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I am biased but believe the chairs at Bintel are a critical component of my observing kit. They are industrial strength and made in Japan.

How do I know this? I was the original importer/discoverer into Australia.

I am a "hefty boy" and wanted something heavy duty enough to hold my bulk, was secure in adjustment, stable and easily transportable.

I found the "Stellar Seat" to be the answer to my search. I highly recommend them...
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Old 18-01-2015, 08:10 AM
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h0ughy (David)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavelandscott View Post
I am biased but believe the chairs at Bintel are a critical component of my observing kit. They are industrial strength and made in Japan.

How do I know this? I was the original importer/discoverer into Australia.

I am a "hefty boy" and wanted something heavy duty enough to hold my bulk, was secure in adjustment, stable and easily transportable.

I found the "Stellar Seat" to be the answer to my search. I highly recommend them...
i bought two - great piece of kit and i am a small boy set at lower level you can recline back and take it all in looking up
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Old 18-01-2015, 10:51 AM
inertia8 (Australia)
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Here's some food for thought on the Denver Chair, one of which I constructed last week. Sorry for the essay!

I probably could have made it cheaper if I scrounged around a bit more, however it certainly is not as cheap to build as if living in America etc.

Please bear in mind that I already had the following materials on-hand:
19mm Form-ply in appropriate width/length
8m piece of 2x4 equivalent structural pine
7mm ID efi fuel tube
A tin of Polyurethane Waterproofing wood sealer
Velcro strapping.

Cost of remaining materials from my local Bunnings:
4 x 3/8in flat washers - $0.60
4 x 3/8inx4in bolt/nut - $4.20
2 x 3/8inx2in coach screw - $1.04
1 x 3/8in T-nuts 4pk - $2.80
2 x SS M10 washers - $0.72
1 x M10 150mm Zinc coated Bolt - $3.11
1 x M10 Zinc coated Locknut - $0.35
1 x 1mx32mmx3mm alu strip - $8.16
1 x Satin Stainless Closed Butt Hinge - $6.13

Plus (Unfortunately I did not have suitable screws on-hand):
50Pack of 10-8gx50 Tpine screws - $7.35
25Pack of 8gx30 brass screws - $3.68

Total $38.14

I will also need to sort out some sort of cushioning for it as numb bum sets in very fast with hard plywood for me.. and I refused to pay a futher $13 for a 2 pack of chest handles, which would ultimately stick in my back when leaning back for a rest... the chair can be easily handled without adding a handle in my opinion.

If I had to add buying the wood, fuel tube and sealer/paint, in addition to the cushion I still need and the chest handle I did not buy... then this project would probably be getting close to 50% or more of the cost of the Bintel chair, which is much more sturdy, the one I tried in store felt comfortable and assuring.

As it is, given my larger frame, the Denver chair has a tendency to tip forwards when I lean forward at the lower stool height settings. I did make the seat platform slightly larger so this may be the cause...

Would I build a denver chair again? Yes, provided I could keep the cost down.. it was entertaining and satisfying to build something for once and with a bit more thought I would customize it even more to my liking.

I'm glad I built the chair, as it is more usable than the little folding camping stool I was using beforehand and the stability allows for much improved observation.

If I had to buy everything new then I would seriously consider the Bintel chair, in fact I'll probably end up with one in the future anyhow but would still take the Denver camping with my grab'n'go SW130p.

Best of luck, I hope this helps you with your decision.
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Old 18-01-2015, 11:54 AM
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barx1963 (Malcolm)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by va1erian View Post
I recently bought a Celestron refractor 90 mm diameter with the GO-TO function. I now need a chair with an adjustable height.

Bintel sells one for $179, http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories...oductview.aspx

and Andrews Communications sells another one, Skywatcher-branded, for $169, http://www.andrewscom.com.au/images/...s/sw-chair.jpg

In my opinion, they are too flimsy for that price.

Is there anything else ? Do you use something else, like a step ladder ?

To be honest, I find a need for a chair to be only mild. I am not sitting while changing and manipulating eyepieces. Then I focus onto a planet or constellation, marvel at it for few seconds, and move on to the next item on my agenda. What am I doing wrong ?
I have a Bintel chair and it is solid as a rock and very useful. Yes a bit exxy but does the job it is supposed to do. Only issue I have had is being black I have tripped over it a couple of times in the dark (doesn't help that i was born clumsy!!)

Malcolm
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Old 18-01-2015, 02:32 PM
va1erian
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Originally Posted by wavelandscott View Post
I am biased but believe the chairs at Bintel are a critical component of my observing kit. ...
I found the "Stellar Seat" to be the answer to my search. I highly recommend them...
I looked at the Bintel chair picture again, and I noticed that it has a support for legs. Presumably, this is done so that the high-sitting observer would be comfortable when using a tall Dobsonian.

But would it be comfortable for the users of about 1 m long refactors ? Other question: what brand is Bintel rebranding them from ?
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Old 18-01-2015, 04:23 PM
ausastronomer (John Bambury)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by va1erian View Post
I now need a chair with an adjustable height.

Bintel sells one for $179, http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories...oductview.aspx

and Andrews Communications sells another one, Skywatcher-branded, for $169, http://www.andrewscom.com.au/images/...s/sw-chair.jpg

In my opinion, they are too flimsy for that price.
I can only assume your comments are based on speculation from looking at the pictures, not from seeing the chair in person, picking one up, or using one?

Whilst I can't comment on the SkyWatcher Chair, as I haven't seen one, I can comment on the Bintel Chair. I own one of the originals bought from Scott Mitchell (wavelandscott) long before Bintel started importing them.

I have had mine for about 8 years and it is in as good a condition as when I picked it up. As Scott says these are made in Japan and are a high quality product. They are not flimsy and are in fact extremely solid, made of very thick tubular steel with a good wall thickness. If they can hold Houghy (sorry big boy ) they can hold most people. Mine is in perfect condition and shows no rust marks anywhere after 8 years of use.

When Scott Mitchell started importing these they were sold under the name of "Stellar Seat" in Australia. They have been sold in other countries under different names. In the USA they are sold under the name of "StarDust Astronomy Chair". In 2003 it was awarded a "Hot Product Award" by Sky and Telescope Magazine.

While the SkyWatcher Chair from Andrews is only $10 cheaper, I believe there are some important differences well worth paying an extra $10 for. The Skywatcher chair will be made in China to a price point and I would guess somewhat less sturdy in construction than the Stellar Seat sold by Bintel. Importantly, the Skywatcher chair uses a friction system to lock the seat at a given height, which over time could be prone to fail. The Bintel Chair uses a pair of very strong locking hooks which hook over the steel rails and the system can never fail or move in any way.

In terms of timber chairs I have used a number of them over the years and I still prefer the "Stellar seat" I purchased off Scott a few years ago, it is a high quality product in every respect. Including the nicely padded vinyl seat which has shown no signs of cracking after 8 years use. Timber seats are prone to knocks and dings which can then lead to splinters. Due to weathering they can also warp out of shape a little over time. The only advantage I see of a timber chair is that they are better suited to observing in extremely cold weather <0 degrees C, as a steel chair can get very cold, if you need to adjust it, or move it and you don't have full finger gloves on.

I highly recommend the Stellar Seat from Bintel. You will probably upgrade the telescope several times, before you need to upgrade the chair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by va1erian View Post
Is there anything else ? Do you use something else, like a step ladder ?
Not that does the job properly IMO.

Chairs designed for other purposes (like Drum stools etc) do not have a great enough height adjustment range for astronomy. At the moment you only have a 90mm refractor. A larger refractor 5" or 6" will require a greater height adjustment range than your 90mm refractor. Similarly, if you end up going with a larger dobsonian, it again requires a large height adjustment range. The Stellar seat has a height adjustment range of over 600mm and because of the "A" frame design stays stable on uneven ground at full height adjustment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by va1erian View Post
To be honest, I find a need for a chair to be only mild.
At the moment you are only learning. It takes time, in many cases years, to learn to observe properly and extract fine detail from an eyepiece view. An observing chair greatly increases your ability to keep your eye still, your head still, your body still and most importantly the telescope still. Most, if not all, serious visual lunar / planetary observers use an observing chair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by va1erian View Post
I am not sitting while changing and manipulating eyepieces.
At the moment it's a novelty to change eyepieces and get a different view of the same target. When you get more experienced you will find the tendency to change eyepieces can reduce dramatically, particularly as you start to use larger telescopes and hunt for dim threshold targets. My best effort is an 11 hour observing session with one eyepiece. I did add and remove OIII filters and UHC filters to the bottom of the focuser drawtube a few times throughout the night, but the one eyepiece stayed in the telescope the entire night, notwithstanding the fact that I own several cases full of premium eyepieces. That was with a 17mm Nagler T4 plus a paracorr in my 18" Obsession. This gives a true field of view of just over 1/2 a degree at 142X. Which frames the full moon at 142X. Similarly, my observing colleague Andrew Murrell can go most of the night using one eyepiece and only rarely changing the eyepiece; and then only for a specific reason like a larger FOV to fully frame a large target, or a higher power eyepiece to increase contrast and "pop" a threshold galaxy, or planetary nebula.

Quote:
Originally Posted by va1erian View Post
Then I focus onto a planet or constellation, marvel at it for few seconds, and move on to the next item on my agenda. What am I doing wrong ?
What you're doing wrong here is only spending a few seconds on each target. You need to spend a few minutes on each target even as your learn to observe. As I said earlier it takes time to learn to observe properly and extract the fine detail from the view. What I am trying to say here is that a newcomer will see a lot less while looking at "exactly" the same view as an experienced observer will see. You need to train yourself to observe which can take a few years of solid observing to become "highly skilled" and see detail that most observers miss. After a few months you will become skilled to the level where you see a lot of things that a beginner will miss. In addition to improving your observing skills by spending time on each target, it often can take several minutes to get a few seconds of steady air, which will give an improved telescopic view of what the previous few minutes just gave you. This gets more important as you start to use bigger telescopes as larger telescopes are more severely affected by variable seeing conditions than small telescopes.

Lets look at an example. Lets take the lunar crater "Plato" which is a favourite lunar target of a lot of people. It is located to the South of Mare Imbrium which is the top left corner of the FOV in a reflecting telescope.

Here are some images which try to explain what I mean. The original image is on the left and is an image taken by one of the worlds best lunar / planetary imagers, Damien Peach with a 14" Celestron SCT, under ideal seeing conditions.

For the purpose of this excercise forget about the detail in the terracing of the crater walls and just look at the little craterlets in the floor of Plato. In the original image there are a couple of dozen craterlets that are visible in the floor of Plato. Some are large and easy to see, some are tiny and impossible to see visually in a telescope. The number you see can often be very dependent on sun angle and seeing conditions

The image second to left is the view that a beginning observer might see through about a 10 inch or 12 inch telescope. They might see the 2 larger craterlets in the middle. They would probably miss the large craterlet tucked against the edge of the Eastern wall "almost in the shadow" and they would probably miss all the smaller less contrasty craterlets in the middle and near the walls.

The image 3rd to the left is what an intermediate level observer might see in a 10" to 12" telescope under good seeing conditions in a good telescope. They would see the four largest craterlets in the middle and they might get the large one tucked against the Eastern Wall.

The image on the right is what a highly skilled lunar observer might see in a very high quality 10" to 14" telescope on the very best nights of seeing. I have had similar views to this of Plato in my 14" SDM at powers up to 800X. I have also had views close to this (slightly less detail) at 600X in my 10" SDM. Irrespective of the advertising hype you read on the side of telescope boxes, it takes a very high quality telescope of at least 10" aperture (with tracking) and exceptional seeing conditions to get to 600X on any target, with a good quality detailed view. Some nights I have spent well over an hour just looking at Plato to extract the last of these tiny craterlets, that were going to reveal themselves, on a given night. I have also had dozens and dozens of nights where I struggled to see up to about 4 in my 14" SDM due to poor seeing conditions. There have also been plenty of nights I could only see 2 in my 10" scope. One night I could barely make out Plato in my 10" scope conditions were so bad.

The best way to improve your observing skills is to try and see detail within detail when you observe any target. In this case you don't just look at Plato, you start to look around the floor and the walls. Similarly when you observe Saturn or Jupiter, you look for detail within the detail, For example with Saturn the first thing to do is look for the Cassini Division within the rings, don't just look for the rings. The same applies to observing DSO's, You find a feature that reveals itself and then look for additional detail within that feature.

Cheers,
John B
Attached Thumbnails
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Click for full-size image (Plato Final View 10 inch telescope intermediate observer (reduced size).jpg)
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Old 18-01-2015, 05:23 PM
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wavelandscott (Scott)
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The Bintel chairs are actually made for industrial use...so workers can have a safe ergonomically sound adjustable place to sit.

The Astro use is a side benefit. I use them with both my Dobsonian and Alt-Az Refractors...heck I use them around the house for things all the time.
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Old 22-01-2015, 10:11 PM
va1erian
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Originally Posted by wavelandscott View Post
The Bintel chairs are actually made for industrial use...so workers can have a safe ergonomically sound adjustable place to sit.

The Astro use is a side benefit. I use them with both my Dobsonian and Alt-Az Refractors...heck I use them around the house for things all the time.
Thanks for the link. I think I might get this seat for my workplace as well !
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Old 22-01-2015, 10:16 PM
va1erian
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Originally Posted by ausastronomer View Post
Here are some images which try to explain what I mean. The original image is on the left and is an image taken by one of the worlds best lunar / planetary imagers, Damien Peach with a 14" Celestron SCT, under ideal seeing conditions.
Hi John,

Thanks for writing up a comment, it contains some of the practical stuff I am always on look for. I find it interesting to me to push my equipment to the edge of performance. This was why I noticed the four images in your post, and was looking forward to inspecting each of them. I was looking forward to learn what improvement of the equipment brings what improvement in vision/resolution. Sadly, your examples were not real -- they were photoshopped from the first, a hi-res one.
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Old 23-01-2015, 06:57 AM
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AstralTraveller (David)
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+1 for the 'Bintel' chair. We have two - one each. The lack of pain in the back persists long after the pain in the wallet has subsided. We bought the first one 5-6 years ago and it is still undamaged and unmarked. We putstrips of silver tape on ours to reduce the number of double somersaults performed in the dark.

If you are comfortable you will observe for longer and see more. I rate it up there with good eps, good focuser, warm clothes, nice snacks and a thermos of tea as things that make an obs night civilised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavelandscott View Post
...heck I use them around the house for things all the time.
They make good musician's stools. They sit you upright rather than reclined and there are no arm rests to get in the way.
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Old 23-01-2015, 07:39 AM
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gaa_ian (Ian)
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My old club (GAA in the NT) bought 2 of them and they are Awesome ! They make the difference between having a quick look and really taking in the details when viewing.
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Old 14-04-2015, 10:20 PM
Mamba (David)
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Observers chair

This is my first ever post so maybe I'm into grandma and eggs land but I use a seat designed for ironing, adjustable and cheap as chips.
Mamba
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Old 14-04-2015, 11:48 PM
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Steffen
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I'm using one of these (bought 2nd hand here on IceTrade), and like it a lot:

http://www.amazon.com/Vestil-CPRO-60.../dp/B0052PJF5E

Cheers
Steffen.
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