I don't use the 64bit version of TSX so I can't comment in that regard.
I think you might be over complicating the comparison between the two programs. What matters is what the curve looks like after it is pasted into TheSkyX and you can do that with both programs quite easily. Just take a screen shot of both curves. My guess is they will look rather similar but phase shifted or possibly inverted and also possibly phase shifted.
Peter
PS I can kind of understand why you desire to keep everything in TSX. But, there are quite a few things that other programs may do better. For example, automation in TSX is quite limited.
Thanks for your reply and suggestions, I appreciate them.
During the testing phase, I recorded data with the camera at PA’s of 0 degrees and 180 degrees, and sometimes Binned 1x1 or 2x2 all of which can affect the data collection.
It looks like the PE data can be found in one of the SB Files but extracting it takes a bit of manipulation, and then the environmental variables (Image Scale, PA, etc.) are in a separate file.
I would prefer to capture some fresh data over a single session, at the same image scale and PA so I know that whatever data I have in each file is the “truth”.
Incidentally, it seems that the SB Forum post that stated that The Sky X Pro 64-bit works with PEMPro was based on using simulated hardware, and not real hardware. PEMPro have confirmed that PEMPro is only a 32-bit application. I wonder if that lies at the root of the Southern Hemisphere PE problem – have the developers and testers tested it on real HW in the Southern Hemisphere?
I have customized TSX 64 with my obstructed horizon, FOV indicators, Chart Elements, Optional Database’s, Custom Toolbar, and many other specific settings to get it to work how I want it to. I really don’t want to have to keep these settings synchronized across TSX 32 and TSX 64, so I would love it if SB would fix this problem.
And then there are those changes beyond the control of SB where external data sources change, such as Comet, Asteroid, etc. source links which have changed at least twice since I have been using The Sky, requiring me to make manual changes within Preferences and replacing a text file in the SB Application Support Folders. Granted that these changes only happen infrequently, but when they do, at least I only have to make a change in TSX 64.
I did run my old Tak EM200 using NINA and Voyager but found that as I set up and tear down each night, TSX can manage each session without the need to go outside its capability.
I use Pempro to do PEC on my PME. No issues I have noticed. SB's PEC program is not as good as PEMPRO's.
What issue are you having with Pempro and SkyX ? I think Pempro may like PME mounts though.
On another note I read about PHD2 having some sort of PEC training that may be cutting edge. Perhaps try
that.
PHD2 also has multi star guiding which many have reported as reducing tracking errors significantly.
Greg.
Hi Greg
Thanks for comments, it is good to hear of your experience.
I am not having any issues with PEMPro and TSX 32-Bit, it’s just that a post on the SB Forum suggested that PEMPro will work with TSX 64-Bit, which I could not see how to do, nor get to work. I work in TSX 64-Bit and I was not keen on maintaining a cloned copy of all my setting in 32-Bit as well. Too much of an overhead to keep the two versions in sync.
However, it seems that the SB Forum post that stated that The Sky X Pro 64-bit works with PEMPro was based on using Simulated Hardware, and not Real Hardware and in a question I raised on the PEMPro Support Forum, it was confirmed that PEMPro is only a 32-bit application.
This led me to wonder if using Simulated Hardware may lie at the root of the Southern Hemisphere PE problem – have the SB developers and testers tested it on real HW actually located in the Southern Hemisphere?
From reading the comments in this Thread on IIS, it seems that there has been a long history of PEC Training issues with the Legacy Method, and these seem to have also reared their head using the new TrainPEC Method, which is more automated.
The good news that pending a fix from SB, it is good to have a robust alternative solution in PEMPro.
After PEC Training with PEMPro, my MX+ Mount has shown that it can take un-guided images at a focal length of 2,200mm for up to 120 seconds with no signs of trailing, so I am very happy with the mount and its performance.
The only thing I will need auto guiding for is when I have to Dither, as I believe that TSX cannon Dither in the un-guided mode?
I stopped upgrading my SkyX when it went to a subscription payment system.
Not sure what the gain is from 64bit. I guess everything is a bit more accurate.
Unfortunately these types of programs are all written by northern hemisphere people and sometimes errors creep in where the system acts as if its in the northern hemisphere.
I recently lost a rare clear night because my mount all of sudden acted as if I were in the northern hemisphere - pointing to objects at the ground etc, (I think I leant on my keyboard and must have accidentally given the mount a command).
If the curve is out of phase then it will be less effective - is that one of the issues?
During testing over several sessions, utilizing both the Legacy PEC and the new TrainPEC routines, I discovered that uploading PE Data to the MX+ actually worsened the PE in the “After PEC” phase, by a factor of almost x2. The new TrainPEC procedure in TSX is quite slick and highly automated, which I found to be a great improvement over the Legacy PEC Procedure. But it still doubled the PE.
However, these tests were performed under very poor conditions, (our wettest Autumn in 10 years) with very strong wind gusts hammering the MX+. I attributed these anomalous results to user error as this was a brand-new mount, thinking this was part of the (steep) learning curve. Normally I would not even set up under these very windy conditions, but the run of poor weather and time constraints forced my hand.
Unfortunately, I also encountered some problems with Image Link during these tests and this sort of muddied the waters, but the folks at SB set me straight on that minor diversion.
After providing some (wind affected) TrainPEC Files to SB, they provided me with a PE File that I was able to upload to my MX+ via the Bisque TCS and this did indeed improve the PE as follows
However, browsing the web suggested that several Paramount owners were obtaining After PEC results of better than +- 1 arcsec, so I figured the wind blasts had polluted my results. By this stage, Peter joined the conversation on the SB Forum (alerting me to PEMPro) and I also discovered this very Thread on IIS, where it seems the issue has been active since around 2013/2014.
So, I purchased a PEMPro License and used PEMPro to collect the PE data under no wind loads and it produced the following very pleasing results.
After uploading the PEMPro generated PE File to the MX+, a subsequent validation run yielded a PE of 0.8 arcsec Peak-to-Peak, a result I am extremely pleased with.
I then grabbed a 120 sec un-guided exposure of M16 at a FL of 2250 mm, and the stars were nice and round, although it is worth noting that in TSX, I had all the following Enabled:
Apply PEC
Apply pointing corrections
Activate ProTrack
Enable tracking adjustments
Although it might sound a painful journey, it was also a good learning experience so I remain optimistic and have faith in the MX+ and TSX.
My limited understanding of why TSX is now offering 64 bit versions has to do with new CMOS cameras and the large amounts of data they generate with short exposures. I don't think the 32 bit version suffers at all using a standard CCD camera.
Also, I read a post of Patrick Wallace's (on the SB Forum) and I believe he made a comment that it is nearly impossible for software developers to adequately test programs in the SH. SB ought to have taken you up on your offer to run your system remotely!! Perhaps if you can verify the problem with your new tests you can offer again because I think they miss a lot of posts and tend to jump in to the middle or end of a post missing vital info. It can be mighty frustrating! They make a great mount but customer service is all over the shop....sometimes excellent, other times non-existent.
That is also my understanding of why 64-Bit over 32-Bit. In fact in PEMPro, I had to Bin my QHY268M Pro 2x2 to avoid ASCOM errors at 1x1 which might have something to do with the size of the image files.
I suspect that most astronomical SW & HW suppliers have limited resources and it is likely that they evaluate any product issues, or defects, based upon an assessment of their severity (showstopper or mild inconvenience), how many users are affected, is there a work around, etc.
I am left wondering that as there are relatively few SH users, given that PEMPro is an excellent work around, the defect is deemed to not be a showstopper, etc. then it might be a long way down their to do list. Having invested their resources to design and implement the new TrainPEC capability, it must come as a great disappointment that the SH defect seems to persist.
I find their Support Forum quite limited in functionality and it seems to have been designed as part of an Engineering Management System, to just gather the data in a somewhat terse, impersonal manner whereas for example, here on IIS, it is geared more towards being a social platform, where there is more friendliness, banter and toing and froing.
Well, Dennis, I hear what you are saying, but it doesn't make me happy to pay SB for yearly subscriptions and then have them pretty much ignore and never fix issues. And, instead of giving service on the forum they depend a huge amount on other users to respond and help out. I just think it's rather bizarre. I've been on the receiving end of both terrific service and also having what I think are important posts totally ignored.
The sad fact is us southern hemisphere users of SB SkyX are a minority.
That's a great result for Pempro corrections.
I am happy with my now earlier version of SkyX and don't see many reasons to upgrade.
Image link has always been a bit of voodoo. It doesn't work, it doesn't work, it starts working and then stays working. Usually your image scale is a bit off if there are failures. Also use All Sky when doing an image link, it works more reliably.
Well, Dennis, I hear what you are saying, but it doesn't make me happy to pay SB for yearly subscriptions and then have them pretty much ignore and never fix issues. And, instead of giving service on the forum they depend a huge amount on other users to respond and help out. I just think it's rather bizarre. I've been on the receiving end of both terrific service and also having what I think are important posts totally ignored.
P
Hi Peter
No argument from me there Peter, you have pretty well summed up my experience and having used their products and services, and paying for the annual subscription, in my opinion, they do fall short of what might be considered best practice in terms of support and bug fixes for such a premium product at a premium price.
In the end, I decided that to keep me sane, all I can do is take care of my own side of the “relationship” and “interactions” and just accept that I do not know what goes on at SB, what challenges they face, the impact of CV-19, component shortages, (short term) etc.
I do trust that fundamentally, they manufacture a good product and that all the shortcomings, however much they impact me, are not intentional or negligent.
This is not an excuse for poor performance, and it is plain wrong that this issue has been around since at least 2013/14, it’s just my method of keeping my head above the swamp water.
This approach is the only way I have at my disposal to keep me on an even keel in this hobby, as there are so many challenges in getting everything to work all right on the night.
I guess this is my version of home-spun Dennis psychology 101, and how I try to stay calm and sane in a frustrating on-line world. It doesn’t always work but I mostly manage to get back on an even keel and count the blessings I do have.
I have been advised by PEMPro that I can collect autoguiding data log files (Relays disabled) in TSX64 and then use a PEMPro Wizard to generate a Paramount PEC File, which I can then upload to the MX+, which is excellent news as I no longer need to sync TSX32-Bit and TSX-64Bit now.
Some follow up information using PEMPro to upload the PE data acquired from The Sky X Pro via the autoguider logs, to my Paramount MX+:
Well, after a few months of cloudy nights (thanks La Nina ) I finally managed to get out one clear evening and record the PE Data for my Paramount MX+ using The Sky X Pro 64 Bit (Imager.25.log for 4 worm cycles). This was the Pre-PEC File with Autoguider Corrections disabled (Legacy Method).
Pre-PEC
I then used this “Imager.25.log” file in the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard to “Create Paramount PEC File”. I have attached the following screen captures of the Pre-PEC Graph from PEMPro and The Sky X Pro (Bisque TCS). Both generated from the same Pre-PEC Imager log.
After uploading the (pre-PEC) file generated by PEMPro, “ParamountPec-2022-10-03-115503.txt”, to the Paramount MX+ via the Bisque TCS in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit, I Enabled PEC in The Sky X and collected another Autoguider log (Imager.26.log for 2 worm cycles) with Autoguider Corrections enabled. (Legacy Method).
AFTER-PEC
I then used this AFTER-PEC “Imager.26.log” file in the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard to display the AFTER-PEC Graph in PEMPro. I have attached the following screen captures of the AFTER-PEC Graph from PEMPro and The Sky X Pro (Bisque TCS). Both generated from the same AFTER-PEC Imager log.
The Image Scale was 0.346 arcsec/pixel with a Position Angle: 180° 28' from north through east. The guidestar was at DEC=0.6 degrees W of the Meridian.
I was pleased with these results. It's a pity that the new SB TrainPEC Routine in The Sky X Pro still does not appear to work for us folks who use our Paramounts in the Southern Hemisphere.
I've been struggling with the TSX PEC routine and cannot get it to produce any sort of PEC at all and hence have just acquired PEMPro only to now get the 32 bit v 64 bit issue. I've started the TSX 32bit version but PEMpro still fails to connect to the mount. Was there any tricks that people used to get these two to talk?
The issue
With my Paramount MX+ and The Sky X Pro, during testing over several sessions, utilizing both the Legacy PEC and the new TrainPEC routines, I discovered that uploading PE Data to the MX+ actually worsened the PE in the “After PEC” phase, by a factor of almost x2.
From reading the comments on IIS, it seems that there has been a long history of PEC Training issues for Paramounts with the Legacy Method, and these seem to have also reared their head using the new beaut TrainPEC Method, which is more automated.
Whilst the new beaut TrainPEC procedure in TSX is quite slick and highly automated, which I found to be a great improvement over the Legacy PEC Procedure, it still doubled the PE.
My workaround
However, there is a workaround, use PEMPro.
I understand that PEMPro is a 32-bit application and by Microsoft design will invoke the 32-bit version of other applications it interacts with, so it will not launch The Sky X Pro 64 Bit application.
But you can use the Legacy PEC Method in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit to generate the “Imager.nn.log” files in TSX Pro with the Autoguider Corrections disabled (Legacy Method).
Jumping into PEMPro, you can use this TSX Pro 64 Bit generated “Imager.nn.log” in the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard to “Create Paramount PEC File”.
This file can then be uploaded to the Paramount MX+ via the Bisque TCS in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit.
My procedure
When generating the “Imager.nn.log” file using the Legacy PEC Method in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit:
I used the main OTA and QHY268M as the Autoguider, not my smaller guidescope.
I chose a star near 0 degrees declination and near the meridian (due north in the Southern Hemisphere).
I had the Camera PA set to 0 degrees.
Using Image Link in TSX I made a note of the Image Scale (arcsec/pixel) and confirmed PA=0.
Hope that helps some.
In summary:
I collect PE data using TSX Pro 64 Bit which saves this as an “Imager.nn.log” file. This is the PE data with Autoguider Corrections turned OFF, so no Autoguiding is taking place, you are just recording the excursions of the guide star as is.
I then us the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard to the “Create Paramount PEC File”.
I then use TSX Pro 64 Bit to upload this PEMPro file to the MX+ via the Bisque TCS.
Thank you Dennis. After reading the various posts around the place I decided to get PEMPro which I have now done and am still getting it calibrated so if I can't i'll use the method you have outlined below.
Thank you Dennis. After reading the various posts around the place I decided to get PEMPro which I have now done and am still getting it calibrated so if I can't i'll use the method you have outlined below.
David
It’s a real shame that Paramount users in the Southern Hemisphere continue to experience this long-standing problem, given how many competent users have reported the issue to SB over the years.
It seems they do not have the appetite to fix it, as when I enquired about a solution, they would not provide a roadmap to a fix, so we must purchase additional SW such as PEMPro for a work around.
The procedure that I described 2 posts above is quite lengthy but essentially it boils down to a 3-step process:
Collect the Raw (unguided) PE Data in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit making use of all the whistles and bells such as T-Point, Protrack and a good Polar Alignment.
Open the log file in the PEMPro “Paramount Quick PEC” Wizard and generate a txt file that can be uploaded to the MX+ via the Bisque TCS in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit.
Upload PEMPro generated file to the Paramount MX+ via the Bisque TCS in The Sky X Pro 64 Bit.
The only catch is to make sure you meet all the requirements of the various steps, such as correct image scale, camera PA, star near Dec 0, etc.
I tonight loaded the TSX log file and was able to generate a PEC curve. I had only recorded 2 cycles so will now load that up to 5 as per PEMPro recommendations.
I tonight loaded the TSX log file and was able to generate a PEC curve. I had only recorded 2 cycles so will now load that up to 5 as per PEMPro recommendations.
That's great, well done.
Don't forget to then collect a log file with PEC enabled and Autoguider corrections turned ON, so you can then import that Log file into PEMPro which will then show you the corrected PE.
If the PE has doubled, then the Camera PA was wrong i.e. 180 degrees out of phase.
I think my MX+ was +2.4/-2.0 arcsecs before PE training and then +0.8/-0.6 arcsecs after PE training.
I'm not sure I understand what the issue is about using PemPro because as best I know TheSkyX loads both the 32 and 64bit versions. Why not just use the 32bit version with your camera to get the job done? It's so much easier to collect the data in PemPro! The camera can be at basically any angle and star selection is fully automated. And, you can easily view the data as it is collected and graphed. The graphing gives one a very quick visual evaluation of the errors in PE both before and after correction. It's actually not necessary to go through the wizard. You just need to know the resolution which you can get in lots of different ways. It's also not necessary to get PemPro to slew the scope or move it during the Wizard routine. For some reason it can't move Paramounts easily...not sure why but it's not necessary to get the PEC done.
Also, on both of my Paramounts (MEII and MX+) I have always been able to be below 1 arc-sec PTP. It does take a good night, however, but worth going after in my view particularly if you want to try unguided imaging.
From what I understand, SB will eventually retire the 32-Bit version, albeit no date has been set just yet.
Using 32 Bit PEMPro, I found that it could not handle my QHY268M Pro Bin 1x1 due to 32 Bit file size limitations. However, PEMPro would work when I binned the QHY268M Pro 2x2.
When I used PEMPro and TSX 32 Bit the T-Point Model only applied to the 32 Bit TSX environment and could not be migrated to the 64-Bit environment.
I found it clunky using the PEMPro/TSX 32 Bit combination then disconnecting my imaging system and mount to then open TSX 64 Bit and reconnect everything. Even though one might only run through the PEC Training routine once or twice a year, I decided not to operate in both 32 and 64 Bit TSX environments.
Having to maintain Pointing Models, Telescope, Camera, Focuser, Filter Wheel and Rotator Profiles, Custom Chart Settings, Custom Tool Bars, Custom Horizons, User generated Chart Elements and SDB’s, etc. in both a 32 Bit and 64 Bit TSX environment represents a major maintenance overhead, so I have settled on TSX 64 Bit just so I can maintain a single environment and update one instance of the SW.
The new beaut (sadly broken) Train PEC Routine in TSX 64 is quite neat, pity it doesn’t work for us poor sods in the Southern Hemisphere.
When I purchased the MX+ I was not aware that I was acquiring a non-compliant system – it does not meet the requirements of PEC Training as stated in the literature and user guide when operated in the Southern Hemisphere. Worse still, it seems there are no plans to fix this long-standing, much reported, fault.
