Hi folks,
AP is not my 'thang' but outreach stargazing is.
My current opportunity involves connecting a camera to my 14" Go-To Dob and having the live image sent to a cinema screen for outdoor viewing while I control scope from a distance (within a few meters). I'm not interested in recording or taking pics - just a live view for me and the audience to look at while I yabber on about the sky.
I am trying to get my head around the tech lingo and AP concepts but my search for clear answers is being muddied by conflicting 'knowledge' from the various sources.
I'm asking here, for plain English advice.
So far, I have a matched dongle for remote control of the scope (SynScan Pro for the Skywatcher) from my iPad. All good.
The camera has been an issue. My old Pentax K-30 cannot output its live view. So I bought a ZWO ASI astronomy camera but it doesn't like talking to my Mac (they're optimised for Windows!).
I now have an older Sony a5000 mirrorless camera that can do WiFi and HDMI out. It's native is Android but seems to accept my iPad, iPhone and Mac.
I'm thinking I'll send the camera feed to my Mac (sitting with the scope) and then HDMI out from the Mac, to the cinema system. I'll probs need to also control the Mac screen with my iPad.
I've drilled holes in the trusses of the collapsible scope so I can play with getting the focal plane to land on the Sony's CMOS sensor.
Am I on the right track?
Is it now 'just' a matter of getting the focus, WiFi and software all talking together?
Bob, I think your making it too hard, trying to put together equipment that fights your objective. EAA (Electronically Assisted Astronomy), at it simplist, works well with a basic astro high frame rate camera like the ASI294 (not the expensive cooled model, the uncooled one is fine for EAA), this will connect straight to a basic laptop running Sharpcap imaging software (which will handle video frame stacking and alignment for you). This will be displayed on your laptop screen but obviously you can throw it to a big screen if you like.
You will get the ability to save the stacked image.
Your Dob, despite being Goto, is not going to track like an Equitorial mount, so there will be limitations to how long you can build video frames, but you will still have an image to display that you can talk about. Perhaps poking it back onto your target might extend frame build time, within the alignment limits of Sharpcap. If your using a sensitive astro camera it's possible to build a nice image pretty quickly.
You do not mention which ASI camera you have, but it is possible it would work fine if it has video frame capability. So all you might need is a cheap Windows laptop and Sharpcap software.
Plenty to read about this subject over on the US Cloudy Nights Forum, in the EAA sub forum.
Zwo cameras also have an Android app for live view, I've had pretty good luck with that. You just need a type-c/micro usb to usb type-a dongle and it does live stacking. I have no experience with mac, perhaps you could try using ascom alpaca drivers and sharpcap? I have used my a6000 live view with my telescope but it's not sensitive enough. At least with an 8-inch newt. You have to use bulb exposure to see anything but you can use the wifi app to see the images, but I think hdmi out would be more reliable but less convenient. All you need is an e-mount to t2 and a 1.25" adapter and fit to the focuser, or the harder to find e-mount to m48.
What glend says. EAA (live stacking) in sharpcap. I think at one stage an option for an additional screen output with just the image was in introduced?
Zwo cameras also have an Android app for live view, I've had pretty good luck with that. You just need a type-c/micro usb to usb type-a dongle and it does live stacking. I have no experience with mac, perhaps you could try using ascom alpaca drivers and sharpcap? I have used my a6000 live view with my telescope but it's not sensitive enough. At least with an 8-inch newt. You have to use bulb exposure to see anything but you can use the wifi app to see the images, but I think hdmi out would be more reliable but less convenient. All you need is an e-mount to t2 and a 1.25" adapter and fit to the focuser, or the harder to find e-mount to m48.
Thanks David,
Yes, that's where I got to last week.
I found a Sony a5000 for a good price and it has HDMI (and wifi) output for its live view. I got an E-mount and it all fits together nicely.
I think I still have to play around with focal lengths and getting the image to arrive at the sensor in focus. I've drilled stop-holes in the trusses of my collapsible 14" Dob and have extension tubes, barlows etc etc to try to get it right.
I have Skywatcher's SynScan Pro working well remotely on my iPhone and iPad, but even if I work that out, I still have the issue of having to remotely focus.
Whether I use the ASI astro camera or the Sony a5000 mirrorless, I still have the same lack of understanding - remote focussing from target to target and inability to go over to the scope and look through the eyepiece.
I MUST be missing something obvious.
What glend says. EAA (live stacking) in sharpcap. I think at one stage an option for an additional screen output with just the image was in introduced?
Thanks ChrisV,
Not sure I understand what you're saying.
Are you agreeing that I must do some live stacking to get an image out? Just screwing on a live-view DSLR won't do it?
And if I have a ZWO camera and its software, shouldn't it be easy to pull up a view that is an accumulation of exposures?
How do I then, remotely, move on to another target and focus on it? I can find and slew with the Skywatcher's SynScan Pro App from my iPhone but I'll still need to see the stacking software remotely as well. I think I'd need to remotely share-screen to the Mac running it, with my iPad in my other hand.
Sorry for confusion. Just live stack for dim DSOs, but it's not essential. Otherwise just use live view. I usually slew using handset or skysafari on my phone bluetoothed to my mount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunty
Thanks ChrisV,
Not sure I understand what you're saying.
Are you agreeing that I must do some live stacking to get an image out? Just screwing on a live-view DSLR won't do it?
And if I have a ZWO camera and its software, shouldn't it be easy to pull up a view that is an accumulation of exposures?
How do I then, remotely, move on to another target and focus on it? I can find and slew with the Skywatcher's SynScan Pro App from my iPhone but I'll still need to see the stacking software remotely as well. I think I'd need to remotely share-screen to the Mac running it, with my iPad in my other hand.
Sorry for confusion. Just live stack for dim DSOs, but it's not essential. Otherwise just use live view. I usually slew using handset or skysafari on my phone bluetoothed to my mount.
Thanks ChrisV, but I'm stumped about the difference between 'live stack' and 'live view'. I can't work out how to do the latter.
And yes, I can slew the scope from my iphone but how do I then remotely refocus on the target?
Thanks ChrisV, but I'm stumped about the difference between 'live stack' and 'live view'. I can't work out how to do the latter.
And yes, I can slew the scope from my iphone but how do I then remotely refocus on the target?
Notionally, "Live Stacking" is most commonly used in relation to video frame alignment and stacking with an App like Sharpcap. The application takes each video frame and aligns it, and stacks it, to build up total exposure time, it is essential for building an image of faint objects. "Live View" typically refers to real time video capture by a video capable camera, like a Nikon or Canon, but it has no build up of images over time, it is real time only and thus works best with bright objects.
As far as focusing goes, Sharpcap offers a focusing assistant function, which has a selection of tools, including a virtual batinkov mask, FWHH, etc. Focus calculation provided in some camera apps like Backyard Nikon or Backyard EOS ( if using Live View function).
One important consideration, most visually engineered Dobs are set up for visual use and human eye focus through eye pieces, most visual Dobs, will not provide enough inward focal range go allow a camera to achieve focus, this is certainly true for DSLRs in my experience, often requiring scope or focuser modification. Astro type cameras, like ASI, may also experience problems achieving focus when attached to a Dob focuser. You will need to test this before you try outreach, obviously. I recommend you understand this issue as a priority, and decide if you are prepared to alter the Dob, which may include pushing the primary into a camera focus position. In cases where mods to the primary distance are done, an extension tube might be required to achieve visual focus using eye pieces ( and this is typically how dual use Newts are set up).
Refractors, on the other hand, are usually very easy to configure for EAA, as they typically provide long focuser travel, both inward and outward of the notional human eye focal point; and thus do not require modification of the light path.
A couple of points to clarify and some thoughts for you.
Firstly, I am surprised that you mentioned at the outset that your new ASI astro camera was not working well on your Mac. The ASI cameras (and drivers) work natively on IOS and the Mac operating systems. My ASI385 works well in the Mac environment. I would try to resolve this early on as these cameras are miles more sensitive than DSLRs and will offer a greatly enhanced EAA experience. There are plenty of examples of people on Cloudy Nights getting spectacular results using large goto DOBS with a simple video feed to the screen without stacking, especially for the popular bright objects that most people want to observe at public events.
You keep coming back to looking for ways to manage the whole process in the Apple environment. If this is the case, then ignore the posts here that have suggested using SharpCap. It is by far the best software to deliver EAA, but it only works in the Windows environment. You need to be looking for solutions that will work on IOS/Mac operating systems. ZWO do provide simple, entry level software solutions you could use.
You question how to manage remote focusing. You will only be able to do this if you have an electronic focuser on your scope and a way of communicating with it. May I suggest that the simpler solution to start with is to manually focus your scope immediately after set up. You can do this at the scope by watching an out of focus star on your screen (enlarged by say 200%) and moving the focus in and out until you have minimised the size of the zoomed in star. This focus will be more than adequate for a public EAA viewing session.
This is how my portable EAA rig was set up initially for public EAA sessions that I am involved in down here in Hobart. This hopefully illustrates that you can keep it simple at the outset as other posts have advised.
Syncan driven mount - communications via WIFI dongle and SkySafari on iPhone.
ASI385 OSC.
Manual focus at outset as above
Quality powered USB extension cable from camera to macBook Pro eight meters away.
ASI Studio software that provides entry level image acquisition, live video feeds and live image stacking options. It is relatively simple software with enough flexibility to provide excellent EAA outcomes.
HDMI cable to large flat screen TV
I have now upgraded to the following iteration of the above
Same synscan driven mount - communications via EQMOD cable back to my macBook Pro. I am using Stellarium for the planetarium and telescope control.
Electronic focuser on scope driven by software on macBook Pro
Same ASI385 camera with USB communications back to macBook Pro
Quality powered USB hub at scope and powered USB extension cable back to macBook Pro eight meters away.
SharpCap Pro running in WIN10 within a BootCamp partition on the macBook Pro. I have moved to SharpCap to make advantage of all it's advanced features for EAA. However, you certainly don’t need to do this as I outlined above.
With a little planning you can arrive at a solution that does away with the long USB cable that I use and is perhaps more in line with your approach to finding a solution. Add a ZWO ASIAir and a ZWO EAF (electronic focuser) to your scope and you have the makings of a functioning WIFI enabled remote system with all the software functionality that you need to run a successful EAA session.
Let me know if I have not explained this well. Good luck.
A couple of points to clarify and some thoughts for you.
Thank you very much,
Firstly, I am surprised that you mentioned at the outset that your new ASI astro camera was not working well on your Mac. The ASI cameras (and drivers) work natively on IOS and the Mac operating systems. My ASI385 works well in the Mac environment. I would try to resolve this early on as these cameras are miles more sensitive than DSLRs and will offer a greatly enhanced EAA experience. There are plenty of examples of people on Cloudy Nights getting spectacular results using large goto DOBS with a simple video feed to the screen without stacking, especially for the popular bright objects that most people want to observe at public events.
I did think it should be easy, but was put off when I couldn't work out how to do it in ASIStudio after reading this on the manufacturers website and reading similar comments around the forums. See the attache screen shot.
You keep coming back to looking for ways to manage the whole process in the Apple environment. If this is the case, then ignore the posts here that have suggested using SharpCap. It is by far the best software to deliver EAA, but it only works in the Windows environment.
Thank you, yes, I've only yesterday been assured of that.
You need to be looking for solutions that will work on IOS/Mac operating systems. ZWO do provide simple, entry level software solutions you could use.
OK, great!
You question how to manage remote focusing. You will only be able to do this if you have an electronic focuser on your scope and a way of communicating with it. May I suggest that the simpler solution to start with is to manually focus your scope immediately after set up. You can do this at the scope by watching an out of focus star on your screen (enlarged by say 200%) and moving the focus in and out until you have minimised the size of the zoomed in star. This focus will be more than adequate for a public EAA viewing session.
Thank you, I was coming to the conclusion that this will have to be sufficient. And a focuser on the eyepiece seemed a no-brainer to me but nobody, until you, has advised that I'd need one!
This is how my portable EAA rig was set up initially for public EAA sessions that I am involved in down here in Hobart. This hopefully illustrates that you can keep it simple at the outset as other posts have advised.
Syncan driven mount - communications via WIFI dongle and SkySafari on iPhone.
ASI385 OSC.
Manual focus at outset as above
Quality powered USB extension cable from camera to macBook Pro eight meters away.
ASI Studio software that provides entry level image acquisition, live video feeds and live image stacking options. It is relatively simple software with enough flexibility to provide excellent EAA outcomes.
HDMI cable to large flat screen TV
Wow, that's exactly what I'm wanting to hear! That would do for me for now. The weak point is getting ASIStudio to 'live feed". I can't work it out but hopefully if I persist with web searching I'll find someone who can show me.
I have now upgraded to the following iteration of the above
Same synscan driven mount - communications via EQMOD cable back to my macBook Pro. I am using Stellarium for the planetarium and telescope control.
Electronic focuser on scope driven by software on macBook Pro
Same ASI385 camera with USB communications back to macBook Pro
Quality powered USB hub at scope and powered USB extension cable back to macBook Pro eight meters away.
SharpCap Pro running in WIN10 within a BootCamp partition on the macBook Pro.
I also wondered if I'd end up partitioning my Mac so I could run Windows alongside
I have moved to SharpCap to make advantage of all it's advanced features for EAA. However, you certainly don’t need to do this as I outlined above.
Yep, understood.
With a little planning you can arrive at a solution that does away with the long USB cable that I use and is perhaps more in line with your approach to finding a solution. Add a ZWO ASIAir and a ZWO EAF (electronic focuser) to your scope and you have the makings of a functioning WIFI enabled remote system with all the software functionality that you need to run a successful EAA session.
Yes, I agree and see it.
Let me know if I have not explained this well. Good luck.
Honestly, you've explained it perfectly for me. You're a life saver because I was starting to think it was not doable on my knowledge budget and financial budget, and thinking about scratching the project with my client. Thank you so much and clear skies.
