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Old 24-05-2022, 09:38 AM
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Sunfish (Ray)
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The First Astronomers by Duane Hamacher

An astrophysicists guide to Indigenous knowledge of Astronomy. A great insight into Australian first peoples knowledge of the stars and related to that from all over the world.. He speaks to many elders , particularly in the Torres straights, about their names and lore for objects and events that predict seasons and weather in complex systems relating to astronomical orbits which many of us never fully grasp as we do not live under the skies nor depend on them for information. The more time we spend out there, the more we see things as first people saw them.

I will never see the shimmering of the major stars or the seasonal and decade long patterns of movements of celestial bodies in quite the same way.
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Old 17-08-2022, 05:57 PM
TeamG (Glenn)
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Have totally rated this book and gifted it a copy to a mate in the US. Definitely worth a read.
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Old 19-08-2022, 06:12 PM
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Can't say I am a fan of Hamacher.

A Priori reasoning is rife within his writing and while his conclusions are politically/socially fashionable, the lack of a solar calendar or even an Australian Stonehenge make many of his conclusions dubious at best.
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Old 20-08-2022, 04:49 PM
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Sure his writing is a bit furry. It is as much anthropology. But these are not “conclusions” and he accepts that I think and says so often. Just trying to correct a few misconceptions from the past if you read it and have read those. Then relating the story from the people themselves who still tell these night sky stories and use an astronomical calendar of sorts based on their one location , rather than through others that are second hand. He is simply tying ideas from different cultures and observations together. It is not a complicated theory of any kind to trying to prove anything, or a theory at all , other than that people wherever you find them, know quite a bit about the movements of astronomical objects where they depend on life outside.
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Old 20-08-2022, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Sure his writing is a bit furry. It is as much anthropology. But these are not “conclusions” and he accepts that I think and says so often. Just trying to correct a few misconceptions from the past if you read it and have read those. Then relating the story from the people themselves who still tell these night sky stories and use an astronomical calendar of sorts based on their one location , rather than through others that are second hand. He is simply tying ideas from different cultures and observations together. It is not a complicated theory of any kind to trying to prove anything, or a theory at all , other than that people wherever you find them, know quite a bit about the movements of astronomical objects where they depend on life outside.
Duane lost me when started banging on about "Aunty Fran's" deep knowledge (cited in 2003) suggesting there was correlation between drought and auroral activity.

Notably NASA scientists have "not been able to find convincing evidence that the 11-yr cycle is mirrored in any aspects of the climate beyond the stratosphere – such as surface temperature, rainfall or wind patterns"
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Old 20-08-2022, 11:15 PM
By.Jove (Jove)
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Without writing, an accurate calendar and mathematics it's all in their dreams.

If you take the trouble to read the papers by Otto Negebauer it is evident that to do anything of these things the essential pre-requisites include:

- a accurate knowledge of the year, month and date, long-term, that can be correlated across tribes;
- systematic observations recorded for dozens of cycles for any pattern to become evident; which requires...
- precise written records, since the time spans exceed the lifespan of most individuals; and no "oral history" doesn't pass;
- fairly sophisticated mathematics to identify recurring patterns and correlations in the observations recorded.

The aborigines had none of these, nor does the author, evidently.

Written records surviving decades imply something else - somewhere to keep them, long-term, which simply never existed in the aboriginal nomadic culture.

NB statistical correlations and patterns only become evident after many cycles - not one or two. Prior to 1800 the life expectancy of aborigines was less than 30; not even 3 solar cycles; and even now under the age of 15 none of the above is credible.

The book is bunk, IMHO.

Last edited by By.Jove; 20-08-2022 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 21-08-2022, 08:52 AM
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The book is bunk, IMHO.
I picked up a copy at BigW for $24. I finding it to be an exasperating read due his scattergun approach by bringing in observations from northern hemisphere cultures as validation when it suited his argument of thin or non existent local star lore.

Without going quite as far as calling it bunk, I think this work could have been far more credible had he simply stuck to Aboriginal star lore, rather than clutching at straws to give it some sort of scientific validity.

The crab supernova (now the crab nebula) is bizarrely not mentioned in any oral tradition, but the ancient Chinese had clear records of this impressive event. To suggest oral tradition is reliable in light of this glaring omission simply highlights the fallacy of Hamachers position.

P.S. Changed my mind.
It's bunk.
The "songlines mirrored in the stars" and used for "traditional navigation" in WA start by heading north west on the ground, but.... north east by the stars!

But the stars are NOT mirrored in SE Queensland (instead we get extra waypoints and differing sector lengths) .
Can't have it both ways Think I wasted my $24.00

Last edited by Peter Ward; 21-08-2022 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 22-08-2022, 02:57 PM
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Spot on Peter!

Hi Peter & All,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Ward View Post

Without going quite as far as calling it bunk, I think this work could have been far more credible had he simply stuck to Aboriginal star lore, rather than clutching at straws to give it some sort of scientific validity.

The crab supernova (now the crab nebula) is bizarrely not mentioned in any oral tradition, but the ancient Chinese had clear records of this impressive event. To suggest oral tradition is reliable in light of this glaring omission simply highlights the fallacy of Hamachers position.

P.S. Changed my mind.
It's bunk.
I don't think I could have expressed it better nor more succinctly.

I worked with Duane for several years at Sydney Observatory (hails originally from Missouri, USA) and he is by no stretch of the imagination a dope. We know each other pretty well. I have followed his academic career and the objects of his and other's research in this field with some interest.

I have absolutely no doubt at all that Australian Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders developed a a number of fairly sophisticated mythologies and story-books based on the night sky and the stars. Further, that they used the stars for predicting food and water source availability etc given the time of year, but that's pretty much where it ends.

I have seen elsewhere his assertions that aboriginals had developed a "stellar classification scheme" and from other peers to the effect that aboriginals had observed and knew many stars were doubles (binaries) based on naked-eye observations (this includes Alpha Centauri).

In fact the research shows in sum total this: A number of oral traditions recognise that some few stars were orange/red, that a few were yellowish but that most were white. That is not a stellar classification scheme. It is no different to standing by the side of a busy road and noticing that most cars are either white or silver but that some are painted other colours.


The findings in the book generally lack scientific rigour. One example: As Peter noted there is nothing in any aboriginal oral tradition or sky legend in relation to the supernovae of 185AD, 1006, 1054, and 1604 that all would have been very prominent sky events in the southern hemisphere. There are however oral traditions in relation to the eruption of Eta Carinae about 180 years ago which is a very recent event in context arguing powerfully for the unreliability of oral traditions past a few generations as a primary source of actual history. They are so very easy to artificially re-construct if the narrative demands it.

"A Priori " -- very much so.

Best,

L.

Last edited by ngcles; 22-08-2022 at 03:09 PM.
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  #9  
Old 22-08-2022, 09:15 PM
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Very true that there are some irritating simple errors in the book and objects misplaced. Surely could have done with a good editor to reign in some of the more unsupported ideas.

To call the book bunk and the author unqualified in the field is a particularly harsh comment on an easy target. Clearly the book is no scientific paper but would not be alone in that . Hard to argue with NGLES otherwise but I think rejecting value of the positive elements are overreactions that elsewhere you may not find.
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Old 22-08-2022, 10:27 PM
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Hamacher also blithely states, as established fact, that life on Earth was seeded by extraterrestrial impacts.

Fred Hoyle, re-championed this dubious theory from 1903 albeit somewhat later in the 20th century, and would have been proud!

Hamacher goes on to say there are ancient tales of a baby (aka life) falling to earth as a blazing star and creating all life and this was known by indigenous populations long before Western science came to the very same conclusion.

And Gosh. Why was western science so slow?

But research this year led by Elisa Biondi, at the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution shows both cases above are rubbish.

Biondi's groundbreaking 2022 study shows that long RNA molecules, 100-200 nucleotides in length, form when nucleoside triphosphates do nothing more than percolate through basaltic glass.

It is a simple process that would have occurred both on the early Earth and Mars. The experiment is so simple that it could be performed in a high school chemistry lab.

No need for the chemistry of life to be acquired from extraterrestrial baby impacts.

You'd think a guy with "Graduate degrees in AstroPhysics" would know better.
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Old 23-08-2022, 09:11 AM
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After reading all the comments, the phrase that’s driven home…. “Don’t guild the Lilly “. Gentlemen, thanks for remembering science should always come first. Stories, aren’t science, though stories can be entertaining.
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