Electric Vehicles

[TrevorW]

Honestly will they ever take off in this country with the Govt and market doing everything to hinder Australians in general taking up the EV option. No way in a fit could I afford $44000 plus for an EV vehicle(ugly), now that I'm nearing pension age.



I average less than 10k a year in my car (diesel) which gives me up to 1100km on a tank of diesel. Besides with Australia being so large,the distances between towns,cities being so great, the infrastructure doesn't exist and is not likely to exist to support EV for some time.



Examples : cheapest EV in Europe $18000 AUD -


Australia $44000


https://www.caradvice.com.au/901001/...een-recharges/





Whats your opinion

[glend (Glen)]

Trevor, as I am retired I share some of your views. While i would love to have an EV for environmental reasons, the limited range is a big problem for me, as my son's family live in Brisbane and it's 800kms door to door. I can pretty much do that on one tank of petrol in my little 1.2L turbo Renault.
My other trips are mainly down to my daughters place in northern Sydney, which could be easily done with an EV (about 220kms round trip), but any running around down there would require a charge point. My annual kilometres does not exceed 10,000kms, and has been much lower this past year, like 5000kms.
My other point is that we need to consider the environmental cost of actually building an EV for us to buy. The environmental cost of building my 2015 Renault is already a sunk cost and looked at over all the years, it gets cheaper the longer I keep it. A fuel efficient vehicle, just makes much more sense.

Finally, Australian government policy does not look like ever supporting the subsidies that our European friends enjoy. They are happy to collect petrol excise taxes which mostly goes into general revenue. Despite owning a diesel previously (for 13 years), their days are over and they should be taken off the roads. New diesel passenger car and 4wd sales should be banned, and any existing diesels in use should not be allowed to be re-registered once they are ten years old. Restricting diesel fuel sales is another incentive for change, along with raising the price every year.

At present, in Australia, EVs seem to be a toy for the wealthy looking to make a statement. I see a fair number of Tesla's around this holiday area on the weekend, and in the Hunter Valley; likely wealthy Sydney residents having a day trip within their available range.

[Camelopardalis (Dunk)]

I’d love an electric car, but if I was in your position fellas I’d be going with the wait-and-see approach.

Market forces will eventually come into play for the 85% of us living near the coastline, where most of the charging stations are placed.

Range anxiety is a thing of the past under that use case - it’s not like anyone travels Sydney to Brisbane without stopping for the loo

Going inland might make for a different proposition, especially up here in QLD...which is much more sparsely populated away from the coast than the southern states.

FWIW, I own a diesel tow car (with caravan) and I reckon it’ll be a long wait for a replacement that isn’t diesel...

[xelasnave]

My daughter wants me to buy a Toyota Hilux (for her and her Mom) because she likes the way they look ...I sat up and took notice when they came back from the dealer with paper work showing a bottom line of $65,000 (happily only $10,000 of that went to the government in GST, Stamp Duty and Car Registration.)

I had no idea.

anyways as you do when you start to talk about a car you start to see them all over the place..it seems every third car is a Hilux..further there other brands offering their version...so all these vehicles running around with a price tag of approx $70,000 I would say there seems to be sufficient people out there to pay big money for a vehicle..if they like the looks of it

The Hilux you could think is a Tradie vehicle but looking at the various drivers it seems to have a much wider market and so I would think the sucess of the Electric Vehicle will not be held back because of price but maybe some little thing that makes it fashionable or not...I think for many folk being able to boast they are "saving the planet" may be the thing that has them buying...yet others seem drawn by the high performance aspect..one can see why there are companies who make their money from engaging in and selling market research.

What gets me is how cheap you can buy a very good second hand car these days...like $4000 gets you a great vehicle...my approach to motoring is do it as cheap as possible so if an electric car is the cheapest thats what would sway me..for my daughter I guess it would have to appeal visually.

If you think about it an electric car should (other things being equal) be much cheaper just from the moving parts approach..they will have less.

Anyways it is getting to the point where the car I want is one that drives itself...and given the aging population and the folk who like to do nothing more than play on their phone I think that must be where the market has the greatest opportunity.

alex

[Camelopardalis (Dunk)]

Alex, I hear you the price they charge for putting lipstick on a pig is shocking. Australia seems to be the new destination for “off-cuts” or “left-overs” of cars with such rudimentary technology that they wouldn’t pass the emissions or safety standards from elsewhere, and then they have the cheek to charge extortionate prices! That we judge a car on its looks and that even utes are tweaked to appeal in that way speaks volumes.

From an electric car point of view, I don’t see the purpose here yet while most of our power is generated from burning coal. I’d only want one if I was able to mostly charge it myself at home with my own solar panels, or another renewable source. This recently became easier with working from home becoming more acceptable, the times when the car being drained by running into the city and back being fewer. Once the more populous states have more renewables it becomes an easier sell.

I’d be waiting for a self-driver too. As a conurbation dweller, the advantages to an amateur astronomer are obvious...to be able to go out somewhere dark for an evening of observing/photography and not have to worry about fatigue during the drive home. That is something I would pay money for.

For the meantime, I’ll be keeping my 7L/100 diesel suv...

[muletopia (Chris)]

Living inland in Western Australia with long distances to major cities
the practicality of an electric vehicle is nil.
Also I don't see statewide charging stations being in place for a very long time, probably more than ten years.
So I will stick with my plain ordinary single cab dmax ute.


Chris

[Hans Tucker (Hans)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Honestly will they ever take off in this country with the Govt and market doing everything to hinder Australians in general taking up the EV option. No way in a fit could I afford $44000 plus for an EV vehicle(ugly), now that I'm nearing pension age.



I average less than 10k a year in my car (diesel) which gives me up to 1100km on a tank of diesel. Besides with Australia being so large,the distances between towns,cities being so great, the infrastructure doesn't exist and is not likely to exist to support EV for some time.



Examples : cheapest EV in Europe $18000 AUD -


Australia $44000


https://www.caradvice.com.au/901001/...een-recharges/


Whats your opinion

Might be practical for around city but interstate travel I don't think you will completely get away from fossil fuel .. maybe hybrids will fill the void here. As for cost .. now that Telsla are going to be manufactured in China give it a few years for them to clone the technology and the price will drop.

[mura_gadi (Steve)]

Hello,

Electrics are very limited in their environment impact imo, last I read they still lagged behind deasel.

You have a massive amount of earth moved for the batteries, they only last 50-60k's, so you need three sets to match a petrol cars life. They are limited recycling options of these batteries as well at present. All these makes a much less environmentally friendly product then we are lead to believe. A lot of misleading data can be based on whole of production/disposal/running costs ect.

However, the power output and distance really is becoming less of an issue for some models, 1200k+ on a charge is already possible.

Hydrogen is more feasible imo and certainly requires less mining of resources. The leaking in storage is the issue for hydrogen, transport wise etc, not to mention a massive need for new infrastructure - recharging stations for either.

But, we have a carbon capture method, proven and available at $1.75(CAD) per liter that removes carbon and converts back to fuel. So, at 8kilos of carbon per liter of petrol (1 tanks 50 liters, be generous 800k's to a tank, 250k k's to a lifetime = about 125 tonnes of carbon per car) and no capture.

Or a car that can run on one tank of captured carbon over and over again for a life time... But the consumer needs to accept a steep price rise. All infrastructure remains in place, and technically we could use the increased carbon capture infrastructure to go back down under 300pmm as well. (and a car that runs on 800's kilo of carbon for its life!)

We could go carbon capture at $2 a litre (pump price) and virtually not have to change a thing of the worlds economy or infrastructure to billions of people...

But, its seems we live in a world on confusion, denial and deliberate misinformation.


Steve

[Constant (David)]

Originally Posted by muletopia

Living inland in Western Australia with long distances to major cities
the practicality of an electric vehicle is nil.
Also I don't see statewide charging stations being in place for a very long time, probably more than ten years.
So I will stick with my plain ordinary single cab dmax ute.


Chris

Australia is by land mass alone the most unfriendly place on earth for EVs, followed by Russia & Antarctica.
EVs are fine if you're never leaving a city Europe & by enlarge the US. for least populated inhabited continent on earth, methinks some further tech development is required.
Batteries will improve, at some point in time ICE vehicles will be superceded, we're a long way from that point ATM. At least for our fair brown land

[Pepper (Steve)]

I’d never be able to do my job with an EV.
The range and charge times would make it unworkable.
Try telling that to a Tesla driving, city dwelling EV fanboys though��

[multiweb (Marc)]

I think there is a general misconception that EVs are better for the environment. From resources to manufacturing and operation the footprint is similar if not worse than a conventional car for the same time period considering their efficiency and longevity.

"Green washing" is working so hard trying to justify the substitution from one mode of conventional energy for a cleaner one but the truth is there is no such thing as clean energy. The only solution is to cut on consumption. The better mode of energy is still the most efficient so you get the best outcome for the smallest amount used.

[Rainmaker (Matt)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I think there is a general misconception that EVs are better for the environment. From resources to manufacturing and operation the footprint is similar if not worse than a conventional car for the same time period considering their efficiency and longevity.

"Green washing" is working so hard trying to justify the substitution from one mode of conventional energy for a cleaner one but the truth is there is no such thing as clean energy. The only solution is to cut on consumption. The better mode of energy is still the most efficient so you get the best outcome for the smallest amount used.

Agreed 100% and after viewing a video of a Tesla that had been involved in a crash, I certainly won't be buying one in a hurry. The body is essentially glued together, along with a lot of cast aluminium components. the subject vehicle was involved in a crash and just split in two just behind the front seats as the glued joints failed..... not a spot weld anywhere to be seen....

[lazjen (Chris)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I think there is a general misconception that EVs are better for the environment. From resources to manufacturing and operation the footprint is similar if not worse than a conventional car for the same time period considering their efficiency and longevity.

"Green washing" is working so hard trying to justify the substitution from one mode of conventional energy for a cleaner one but the truth is there is no such thing as clean energy. The only solution is to cut on consumption. The better mode of energy is still the most efficient so you get the best outcome for the smallest amount used.

Manufacturing resources: currently yes, but EVs are looking more likely to have a longer lifetime overall than ICE so it's getting closer all the time - especially as processes, etc improve. It's just like what happened for ICE over the last century - things improved with better manufacturing processes, etc. It's early days for EVs, so like just about every new tech, there's things to be sorted out.

Operational cost: false. Most of the ICE vs EV comparisons on operating cost focus on the source of the energy only. Obviously this is important, since you want the cleanest energy source possible for the EV. However, these comparisons often forget: the true cost of producing the ICE fuel, the pollution released (both deliberate and accidental), the health effects and more. Even without improving our current energy production sources for electricity, a switch to EVs is much better than ICE overall. And every improvement in clean energy production moves the needle over to EVs further.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by lazjen

Operational cost: false. Most of the ICE vs EV comparisons on operating cost focus on the source of the energy only. Obviously this is important, since you want the cleanest energy source possible for the EV. However, these comparisons often forget: the true cost of producing the ICE fuel, the pollution released (both deliberate and accidental), the health effects and more. Even without improving our current energy production sources for electricity, a switch to EVs is much better than ICE overall. And every improvement in clean energy production moves the needle over to EVs further.

Here's a good article debating ICEs vs EVs.

[Sunfish (Ray)]

I think the big reason for EVS in big cities in Europe and elsewhere, and the provision of subsidies is air pollution. Everything an ICE car produces from fuel vapour to combustion is carcinogenic . Makes sense in a city to limit that.

Hydrogen is probably the future for low pollution transport in low density areas. Even hydrogen batteries at some point in the future. Like those you will soon be able to buy for your house. Just not yet.

[lazjen (Chris)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Here's a good article debating ICEs vs EVs.

I'll counter your 2000/2015 article with this more recent animated video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk-LnUYEXuM (And yeah, I realise this is not "hard evidence", but I can't be bothered digging up the references right now and this is easier to just watch :p )

[Sunfish (Ray)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Here's a good .

Yes you do need to look at a complete life cycle energy cost of any alternative.

In the case of cities, that would include a whole of city approach. Cities in all ways transfer their pollution and energy demands to the regions, transport and growing of food is one the biggest besides generation of electricity and production of materials. EVs are just one more factor in energy production and use transfer to another location.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Sunfish

Yes you do need to look at a complete life cycle energy cost of any alternative.

In the case of cities, that would include a whole of city approach. Cities in all ways transfer their pollution and energy demands to the regions, transport and growing of food is one the biggest besides generation of electricity and production of materials. EVs are just one more factor in energy production and use transfer to another location.

Exactly and transfer is the keyword here. The net result of the whole exercise is that global emissions are still accelerating at the same rate no matter what was done or told. I'll leave it at that to ponder.

[AdamJL]

My next car will be an EV. My current car is only 3 years old so it’ll be a few more years yet but definitely I’ll be buying an EV. And I’ll be getting a battery for my home. Luddite Governments can get stuffed.

[marc4darkskies (Marcus)]

I for one will NEVER buy a battery EV, especially while I live in a rural area. Range, recharging times, worse performance in cold weather (recharging and range), degradation of battery performance over time and the carbon footprint of battery manufacture all factor in to my thinking.

I will however be an early adopter of Hydrogen fuel cell cars when the technology matures and so long as the refuelling infrastructure is in place. Ask me again in 10 years.