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Old 08-02-2009, 07:10 PM
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Performance of FLI ProLine cooling

I was just testing in the lounge to see if a new USB-serial adapter for my mount control was working and that some driver updating I had done recently wasn't interfering with my CCD systems and I decided to test the colling capabilities of my FLI ProLine 11002 CCD camera in the hot weather.

I have always used -35C as my chip temp and thought.. I wonder if I can reach that today? A digital thermometer on our wall aircon controller read 27degC (we run it modestly to conserve energy) so I set the chip temp in Astroart at -35 and sat back and watched to see if it could do it. Over the course of a couple'a min I watched as the cooling pured and slamed that temp down pretty fast to about -30. At this point it slowed and operating at 99-100% cooling capacity it struggled on but after about 5-6min eventually the chip temp stopped dropping and stabilised on an amazing -34.7C

This means the delta cooling was 61.7C from ambient or in other words I can realistically (running at just under 100% cooling capacity) image at -35C on any night where the temp isn't more than about 26C.

In this heat, that's pretty handy

Just thought some might find this interesting

Mike
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:13 PM
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Performance of FLI ProLine cooling

I've posted this at the equipment forum but thought some on here may be interested too?

I was just testing in the lounge to see if a new USB-serial adapter for my mount control was working and that some driver updating I had done recently wasn't interfering with my CCD systems and I decided to test the cooling capabilities of my FLI ProLine 11002 CCD camera in the hot weather.

I have always used -35C as my chip temp and thought.. I wonder if I can reach that today? A digital thermometer on our wall aircon controller read 27degC (we run it modestly to conserve energy) so I set the chip temp in Astroart at -35 and sat back and watched to see if it could do it. Over the course of a couple'a min I watched as the cooling pured and slamed that temp down pretty fast to about -30. At this point it slowed and operating at 99-100% cooling capacity it struggled on but after about 5-6min eventually the chip temp stopped dropping and stabilised on an amazing -34.7C

This means the delta cooling was 61.7C from ambient or in other words I can realistically (running at just under 100% cooling capacity) image at -35C on any night where the temp isn't more than about 26C.

In this heat, that's pretty handy

Just thought some might find this interesting

Mike
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:19 PM
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drool
Frank (who owns a DSLR that testing reveals operates nice and hot...)
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:27 PM
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That is amazing Mike.

How long did it take to get there?

The Microline is like that too. I can get -35C almost anytime but that's a much smaller chip. It takes about 2-3 minutes to get down that low.

Greg.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
That is amazing Mike.

How long did it take to get there?

The Microline is like that too. I can get -35C almost anytime but that's a much smaller chip. It takes about 2-3 minutes to get down that low.

Greg.
It got to about -30C (ie delta 57C) in about 2-3min but then took another few minutes to slowly drop to the final resting point of -34.7 so all up perhaps 10min? But that includes waiting untill I was happy that it wasn't dropping any further so most likely it took about 6-7min or so..?

I also rested the camera body with its thinnest edge against the table to allow the body most contact with air for heat disipation but at the scope it would have been hanging in the air freely and maybe even in a slight breeze so perhaps even a few more decimal points of cooling may be possible..?

A delta cooling of some 62C is pretty good though and very handy.

Mike
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:39 PM
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Daaamn.. thats hellishly impressive..

Tell me though, are you sure that the camera is cooling to -35C, or is it saying -35C from ambient? meaning ~-8c

Forgive me if thats a dumb question... I have no idea if it clearly states that its running at the -35 temp etc.. but thought it best to ask anyway... If you dont ask, you dont learn.

Impressive in any case thats for sure, if it is giving a -61 delta, thats incredible..
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:18 PM
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Yep, thats quite good cooling.
Just be carefull Mike you dont crack the sensor. You should be looking at a 10 to 15 minute change to max cooling to prevent thermal stress.

With that sort of temp, you could dispose of the darks....

Once the camera starts to warm up, you may find it will drop a little, as the heat dissapation efficiency decreases as the body and heat sink absorb the heat.
Bit like running an engine for 5 minutes when cold and running the engine 5 minutes when hot. More heat and harder to dissipate when hotter.
But you now why the costs are so high for these cameras. Thats why you have one in your hands..

Theo
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:28 PM
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He means the final temperature is -35C.

Yes I think the FLI cameras are at the forefront with their cooling. And good cooling solves a lot of problems with CCD cameras and makes life a lot easier.

Greg.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:34 PM
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The delta T depends on the heat load and the heat pumping capabilty of the Peltier stack. You are cooling a single chip directly with no real heat load apart from the much higher internal heat generated by CCD's as compared to CMOS. The numbers are as impressive as is the condensation problems.

The only reason these CCD's work at all is their brutal cooling. I would like to see a Canon CMOS at the same conditions and without Bayer filters.

There is more but I can't be bothered.

bert
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongmanmike View Post
..........but after about 5-6min eventually the chip temp stopped dropping and stabilised on an amazing -34.7C ......
Yep...very cool Mike.

But shouldn't you be ringing a cow bell with this (Toyota-Valvoline-Wild Turkey-FLI ) sponsored post ?)
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:48 PM
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That's pretty cool Mike. (guffaw.... guffaw)

I was out last night and only made it down to -10C at 85% capacity with ambient temp sitting at 22. That's a delta T of 32 degrees from the SBIG which is what is advertised. I can't wait until winter in other words....

Mmm... STL/X or ProLine.... hmmm....

Last edited by Omaroo; 08-02-2009 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:01 PM
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Yep...very cool Mike.

But shouldn't you be ringing a cow bell with this (Toyota-Valvoline-Wild Turkey-FLI ) sponsored post ?)
No, what I wrote is exactly how it happend and since many on here have been frustrated with the hot weather lately with even their cooled cameras not being able to get much below zero on some nights, some may be in a position to upgrade and this is one hell of a good reason to if you were thinking about it.

Mike
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avandonk View Post
The delta T depends on the heat load and the heat pumping capabilty of the Peltier stack. You are cooling a single chip directly with no real heat load apart from the much higher internal heat generated by CCD's as compared to CMOS. The numbers are as impressive as is the condensation problems.

The only reason these CCD's work at all is their brutal cooling. I would like to see a Canon CMOS at the same conditions and without Bayer filters.

There is more but I can't be bothered.

bert

You are right Bert, some chips really benifit from super cooling others not so much. I notice with my camera KAI11002 chip that at lower temps things do indeed improve and beinga able to run at -35C all year also means much less bother with dark libraries etc...

I think the Sony chips are more tolerant of warmth though..?

I have no condensation problems at all that I can tell. The CCD chamber is purged of air and backfilled with Argon.

Mike
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
That's pretty cool Mike. (guffaw.... guffaw)

I was out last night and only made it down to -10C at 85% capacity with ambient temp sitting at 22. That's a delta of 32 degrees from the SBIG which is what is advertised. I can't wait until winter in other words....

Mmm... STL/X or ProLine.... hmmm....
My ST9E with water cooling and a secondary cooler will give me a 43deg C drop in temp. I can run at -20 almost always as we tend to cool down at night below 20degC.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
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....

The only reason these CCD's work at all is their brutal cooling.....
I beg to differ. (normally I'd say "Bollocks" )

The on-chip (vs off-chip with CCD) charge to voltage conversion of CMOS hamstrings its ability to produce extremely clean pixel to pixel signal read uniformity.

To date, all major science cameras (in Hubble, Keck etc.) remain CCD for this and other reasons
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:11 PM
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My ST9E with water cooling and a secondary cooler will give me a 43deg C drop in temp. I can run at -20 almost always as we tend to cool down at night below 20degC.
Water cooling coming up for my ST-8i soon Terry. Can't wait.

I have to say that my lights were pretty clean last night, even at -10.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:11 PM
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..... The CCD chamber is purged of air and backfilled with Argon.

Mike
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:11 PM
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Yep, thats quite good cooling.
Just be carefull Mike you dont crack the sensor. You should be looking at a 10 to 15 minute change to max cooling to prevent thermal stress.

With that sort of temp, you could dispose of the darks....

Once the camera starts to warm up, you may find it will drop a little, as the heat dissapation efficiency decreases as the body and heat sink absorb the heat.
Bit like running an engine for 5 minutes when cold and running the engine 5 minutes when hot. More heat and harder to dissipate when hotter.
But you now why the costs are so high for these cameras. Thats why you have one in your hands..

Theo
Aparently Kodak claim the KAI11002 will not suffer thermal stress with rapid cooling and heating and I can even turn the camera off with the chip at -35C aparently? I don't do that though and usually warm it up to zero before tiurning off.

While the frames are indeed clean for a KAI11002 they still need darks at -35C, I haven't tried taking the chip below -35C really but on a cold night in Newcastle -55 or -60C would be quite acheivable, must try and see if it does anything?

Mike
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:15 PM
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Terry, what secondary cooler are you using? I've devised my own little plan (being quite the ingenious fellow I am ) Rather than just running a bucket of water under the mount with the pump feeding the water jacket of the ST9E, I'll be putting a dual core radiator in line with 2x120mm fans feeding air through the radiator... this will ensure the water is as close to ambient temperature as possible... every little bit counts
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:22 PM
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In case it wasn't clear, these cooling figures were WITHOUT water cooling so no messy buckets, pumps and stiff water tubes (to pop off unexpectedly in the night)...water and electronics in the dark???

As a result of this impressive cooling the ProLine is a big camera with three cooling fans so when coupled to the filterwheel it is a big lump of a camera so your adapters and couplings better be robust:

http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike20...51561/original

and

http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike20...50047/original

Mike

Last edited by strongmanmike; 08-02-2009 at 09:32 PM.
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