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  #121  
Old 20-03-2011, 12:19 PM
gary
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Water being used on No 4.

NHK reporting that Self-Defense Forces, under orders of the Japanese Government, are now spraying water into No. 4.
Unmanned water spraying vehicle is being deployed.

Story and video -
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20_10.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHK
Self-Defense Forces spray water into No.4 reactor

Japan's Self-Defense Forces have begun spraying water to cool down the storage pool for spent nuclear fuel in the No. 4 reactor at the stricken Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

A team is using 10 fire trucks in the operation that started at 8:20 AM on Sunday.

A fire engine provided by the US forces in Japan will join in later in the day.

The operation comes after the Tokyo Fire Department and the Self-Defense Forces carried out water spraying at the plant's No. 3 reactor building.

Cooling systems haven't worked since the quake, raising concerns about leakage of radioactive materials.
Meantime, a 13 hour water spaying operation at No. 3 has ended.
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  #122  
Old 20-03-2011, 12:31 PM
Sylvain (Jon)
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Thanks for the update Gary, much appreciated.
If anyone has a link with the latest winds I'm keen on having a look, I haven't been able to find anything.
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  #123  
Old 20-03-2011, 12:35 PM
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I doubt if we will see NP being set aside but dangerous things like incandescent light globes are being dealt with as is smoking or exceeding the speed limit by 5 klms.... so given these facts NP must be safer than smoking however we need to learn or understand that the demands for energy will not go away or be solved ...human population has trebled in my lifetime and I expect population to grow beyond our wildest dreams (or nightmares)...AND so I suspect the demand for energy will always be ahead of supply as thats the way it is for humans....so in an effort to make NP safe I suggest that all future plants be constructed at the bottom of lakes... sounds off beat however such an approach would see the entire plant cooled when their roof gets blown off in an unexpected accident... imagine say the plant we are concerned with was constructed under 100 feet of water ..cooling would not be a problem.

Also given the hydrogen that was manufactured should we not be looking at producing H at NP plants and powering H cars???

Thanks to those who have worked upon this thread .
It is wonderful to be able to get such a great overview from folk who we know are reliable.

alex
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  #124  
Old 20-03-2011, 12:57 PM
gary
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Weather/winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain View Post
Thanks for the update Gary, much appreciated.
If anyone has a link with the latest winds I'm keen on having a look, I haven't been able to find anything.
Hi Sylvain,

If you go to this web page -
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/
you can watch NHK Live TV in English.

Now and then they have weather reports and I am watching now for an update.

Also looking here at Japan Bureau of Meteorology site -
http://www.jma.go.jp/en/amedas/205.html?elementCode=1 (Fukushima)
http://www.jma.go.jp/en/amedas/206.html?elementCode=1 (Tokyo)
http://www.jma.go.jp/en/amedas/000.html?elementCode=1 (All of Japan)

At a glance, unfortunately the winds look like they are currently blowing west and south-west.
In any case, the winds appear to be light.

Last edited by gary; 20-03-2011 at 01:10 PM.
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  #125  
Old 20-03-2011, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
... so given these facts NP must be safer than smoking
Interestingly, I was looking at radiation levels and the effect on the human body .. (a little maudlin) but I noticed that smoking 1.5 packs a day results in 13-60 mSv/year.
The current avg limit for nuclear workers is 20 mSv/year !
So yes, from a radiation dosage perspective, smoking 1.5 packs/day may be more dangerous than working at an N. plant !

Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave
...so in an effort to make NP safe I suggest that all future plants be constructed at the bottom of lakes... sounds off beat however such an approach would see the entire plant cooled when their roof gets blown off in an unexpected accident... imagine say the plant we are concerned with was constructed under 100 feet of water ..cooling would not be a problem.

Also given the hydrogen that was manufactured should we not be looking at producing H at NP plants and powering H cars???
I'd love to see you take some sort of engineering training, Alex.

Perhaps then you might benefit from an appreciation of the constraints imposed by the real world, upon unbridled thinking.
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  #126  
Old 20-03-2011, 02:16 PM
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In the tons of reading material on this topic floating around, I found a very interesting journo article which outlines differences between the Fuskishima situation and Chernobyl.

Article here .. (apologies if you've already read it).

The main points are as follows:

1. Chernobyl's reactor had no containment structure.

2. Chernobyl's reactors had several design flaws that made the crisis harder to control. Most crucially, their cooling system had a "positive void coefficient," which means that as coolant water is lost or turns into steam, the reaction speeds up and becomes more intense, creating a vicious feedback loop.

3. The carbon in Chernobyl's reactor fueled a fire that spewed radioactive material further into the atmosphere. Fukushima's reactors do not contain carbon, which means that the contamination from an explosion would remain more localized.

4. Unlike Chernobyl, however, a meltdown at Daiichi could end up contaminating the water table.

5. Much of the public health impact of Chernobyl was the result of the Soviet government's attempt to cover up the crisis, rather than moving quickly to inform and protect the public.

6. Emergency workers at Chernobyl took few precautions, and may not have been fully informed about the risks they were taking.

Interesting comparison .. but maybe premature. We don't know enough about what actions have been taken, and under what circumstances, at Fukushima.
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  #127  
Old 20-03-2011, 09:14 PM
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Chernobyl

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
In the tons of reading material on this topic floating around, I found a very interesting journo article which outlines differences between the Fuskishima situation and Chernobyl.

Article here .. (apologies if you've already read it).
Hi Craig,

Thanks to the link to the article.

In Richard Rhodes' 2007 book, "Arsenals of Folly", on page 5 he talks about the
2,000,000 pound concrete lid atop the Chernobyl reactor which acted as a
biological shield.

The men who operated this class of reactor jokingly referred to the lid as the
pyatachok, which is a very small five-kopek piece Russian coin.

When the accident began, water flashed to superheated steam and an eyewitness
later reported that the pyatachok "began to bubble and dance".

There were then two explosions lasting four seconds and they lifted the two
million pound pyatachok up and tilted it almost vertically.

The reactor core blew tons of redhot radioactive debris "past the pyatachok,
through the roof, and half a mile into the air".

Parts of the red hot material then landed on the roofs of the reactor complex.
Rhodes writes, "To lower construction costs, the roofs had been covered with
flammable asphalt; the hot graphite set them on fire."

in the days and months that followed, a squadron of big Soviet Mi-8 helicopters
was deployed to drop sand onto the reactor.

Rhodes writes, "Pilots protected themselves by stuffing lead plates under their seats.
They coined a slogan to suit the circumstances: "If you want to be a dad,
cover your b*lls with lead
".

"Each crew member received 20 to 80 rads of radiation on each flight".
Many were sent to Kiev for radiation treatment and the number who died or
were disabled was never revealed.

The fallout reached Kiev. Rhodes reports that when the chestnut trees dropped
their autumn leaves, they raked up three hundred thousand tons of them and
buried them "outside the city as low-level nuclear waste".

One worker reported "We buried the forest". "We sawed the trees into meter-and-a-half
pieces and packed them in cellophane and threw them into graves".

Eventually Reactor 4 at Chernobyl was entombed into a sarcophagus of "half a million
cubic tons of reinforced concrete".
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  #128  
Old 20-03-2011, 11:09 PM
Sylvain (Jon)
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Crazy hey.
Thanks Gary for the Wind map, very useful.
Would you - or someone else - have another link for the live coverage (twitter-like) of the situation?
The BBC link I gave before has not been updated today, I don't know if it is because they are having technical difficulties or because they are covering the situation in Lybia.

If anyone had a good link that provide live info, it'd be great.
thanks.
Sylvain
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  #129  
Old 20-03-2011, 11:36 PM
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Another 6.1 has just happened right on the coast just north of Sendai.
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  #130  
Old 20-03-2011, 11:46 PM
gary
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Dousing operation of No 4 cooling pond concluded

NHK reports that the dousing of No 4 pool concluded before 8PM Japan Standard Time,
having sprayed 100 tons of water, much of which they report reaching inside the
reactor building.

Story here -
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20_31.html
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  #131  
Old 21-03-2011, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
Interestingly, I was looking at radiation levels and the effect on the human body .. (a little maudlin) but I noticed that smoking 1.5 packs a day results in 13-60 mSv/year.
Yes, perspective is a useful thing. I found this interesting, too: http://xkcd.com/radiation/

Cheers
Steffen.
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  #132  
Old 21-03-2011, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffen View Post
Yes, perspective is a useful thing. I found this interesting, too: http://xkcd.com/radiation/

Cheers
Steffen.
Wow!

Eating 1 banana gives you more radiation than living within 50 miles of a Nuclear Plant for a Year!

And even more amazing is that there is 3 times more radiation living within 50 miles of a Coal power station than living within 50 miles of a Nuclear Power station

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  #133  
Old 21-03-2011, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballaratdragons View Post
Wow!

And even more amazing is that there is 3 times more radiation living within 50 miles of a Coal power station than living within 50 miles of a Nuclear Power station

Not that amazing at all..."relative risk" is an important concept that often gets overlooked. Consider the relative toxicity of many household items...salt aspirin etc. A little perspective goes a long way.
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  #134  
Old 21-03-2011, 11:08 AM
Sylvain (Jon)
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That being said I wouldn't be comfortable drinking contaminated water and eating contaminated veggies. The government can say that the levels are "perfectly safe", I also recall governments saying the Chernobyl cloud stopped at the frontier. Given the poor communication that has been going on, I would certainly not trust that government. The matter here is not whether small amounts of radioactivity are dangerous for human health or not, but rather what are people truly exposed to and of course is the damn thing going to explode?
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  #135  
Old 21-03-2011, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
Interestingly, I was looking at radiation levels and the effect on the human body .. (a little maudlin) but I noticed that smoking 1.5 packs a day results in 13-60 mSv/year.
The current avg limit for nuclear workers is 20 mSv/year !
So yes, from a radiation dosage perspective, smoking 1.5 packs/day may be more dangerous than working at an N. plant !



I'd love to see you take some sort of engineering training, Alex.

Perhaps then you might benefit from an appreciation of the constraints imposed by the real world, upon unbridled thinking.
Hi Craig.... engineers are there to make the impossible possible.

Give an engineer a difficult problem and he is happy to hunt down a solution. Never had to use one myself but I accept the importance of their role in making things happen.

We already have neuclear reactors under water in the form of "atomic submarines" and I expect that building a building under water is not that hard really.... access by tunnel (like the one under Sydney Harbour) in fact I can imagine in the public area we could have an aquarium which is really the lake around the plant.

As I said it sounds off beat but the more you think about the benifits the more I think the idea may be the only one that will save the NP industry... Someone else will have to take it further as I have many other ideas that I am working on not related to saving the planet.


alex
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  #136  
Old 21-03-2011, 02:20 PM
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Health Ministry urging not to drink tap water at village in Fukushima

Japan's national broadcaster, NHK, report -

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHK
Japan's health ministry is urging the people of a village in Fukushima Prefecture not to drink the tap water, in which higher levels of radioactive materials were detected on Sunday. The Ministry says, however, that drinking it does not pose any immediate health risk.

Tap water tested at Iitate Village in Fukushima Prefecture showed more than triple the level of radiation allowed by the government.
Story, video here -
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/21_14.html

NHK TV are reporting for those in the exclusion zone, if caught in the rain, they should
then go shower to remove any contamination from the skin.

NHK also report temperatures in pools all below 100C. Normally pool
temperatures are in the 30C range and measurements in various pools today are
in the 40C to 60C range which is slightly higher than normal, but good news.
Story on water temperatures here -
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20_33.html

Meantime TEPCO are attempting to stabilize the pressure within overheating Reactor 3
but have decided against releasing gases from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHK Sunday 20th March 14:42 JST
The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency announced earlier on Sunday that pressure inside the vessel is rising despite efforts to cool the reactor by spraying seawater inside it.

The agency said the pressure must be reduced to protect the containment vessel, which holds radioactive materials inside in the event of an accident.

A release of gases could lead to radioactive substances being released into the environment.
Story on No 3, here -
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20_23.html

NHK TV report that Reactor buildings 1 and 2 are intact but attempts to restore power to No. 2 have been
delayed as some equipment such as monitoring meters were shorted and will need to be replaced. This work
is expected to take three to four days.

Last edited by gary; 21-03-2011 at 02:41 PM.
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  #137  
Old 21-03-2011, 10:44 PM
Sylvain (Jon)
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Thanks for the update Gary.
It's not looking very good...they are making very little progress and it's been almost 10days now :/
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  #138  
Old 21-03-2011, 11:50 PM
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Deconstructing a Controversial Design - New York Times graphic

The New York Times has another interactive graphic and related article entitled
"Deconstructing a Controversial Design".

Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
A leading question about the Fukushima Daiichi plant: Why was the spent fuel pool placed on a high platform, making it difficult to replace cooling water in an emergency? It started with the selection of reactor type.
The graphics and article attempts to explain the series of design decisions that went
into the Mark 1 Boiling Water Reactor that lead to the spent fuel rod pools being positioned at the top.

Step by step interactive graphic -
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/bu...1&ref=business
Related article -
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/we...ew/20wald.html

Track the reactor status here -
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rs-status.html
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  #139  
Old 22-03-2011, 10:40 AM
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More not-so-good news:

Radioactive substances in seawater near Japan nuke plant

Quote:
Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) said the level of iodine-131 was 126.7 times higher and caesium-134 was 24.8 times higher than government-set standards.
The substances were detected in seawater which was sampled Monday about 100 kilometres (60 miles) south of the Fukushima No.1 plant, a TEPCO official said.
The level of caesium-137 was also 16.5 times higher while that of cobalt-58 was lower than the standard, Naoki Tsunoda added, stressing the levels were not a threat to human health.
Its probably authentic information, given the quantitative nature of the information.

I think swimming might be off the activities list this Summer.

I'd be dodging sea-food as well. Unfortunately those who live there don't have this luxury !
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  #140  
Old 22-03-2011, 11:06 AM
Sylvain (Jon)
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Gary,

Thanks for the great links! Especially the reactor status is very useful and informative.

Craig, thanks for the update too, I missed this bit of information. It wouldn't be surprising, but it's very sad
I think at this stage the greatest concern is about reactor 3 & 4. And having to evacuate crews does not help in resolving the situation unfortunately.

Thanks for the updates and info guys.
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