An incnvenient truth - a global warning

[mick pinner]

it is unfortunetly a fact of life that economics are the driving force otherwise we would not be in the position we now find ourselves. we as a species have raped entire forests, polluted massive rivers and killed entire species, do you think we only woke up yesterday and thought oh no what have we done?
governments have always known what the consequences would be but money rules.

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by mick pinner

it is unfortunetly a fact of life that economics are the driving force otherwise we would not be in the position we now find ourselves. we as a species have raped entire forests, polluted massive rivers and killed entire species, do you think we only woke up yesterday and thought oh no what have we done?
governments have always known what the consequences would be but money rules.

I think this is sadly pessimistic. Certainly humans have changed their landscape, but much forest remains, waterways are cleaner then they have been for years, and whilst some species have become extinct, this is what happens to life on Earth. I think many governments have devoted considerable resources to looking after our environment. It was back in the 1970's that the Hamer government in Victoria established the Environmental Protection Authority. Considerable resources and legislation have gone into environmental preservations and remediation since. Even building a house requires an environmental management plan and mitigation for sediment run off.

At the same time our species has allowed, through this process of industrial and economic development, millions to enjoy a far richer and more rewarding and fulfilled life then their parents could ever have imaged. You are one of the most privledged generations in human history, and have adequate disposable imcome to afford both to pay taxes to support environmental policies and probably that nice Meade I see in the corner.

Sure, there are problems at the margins. Due to too many people and not enough resources, habitat loss and species extinction is a problem in some areas. What is needed is greater economic development in these areas of the world to bring them up to our level of prosperity. It is only then that a society can afford wilderness preservation and pollution mitigation.

I really am convinced that human ingenuity can only lead to a better future for everyone. We need sensible government, especially in some of the more unfortunate areas of the world. These factors will allow our species to overcome even radical climate change (however unlikely) and build a much better future.

Back in the 1960's, the Manbearpig was nuclear holocost, in the 1970's it was the population bomb, in the 1980's it was greed, in the 1990's it has become GW and climate change.

I rather think some people need to get a grip and take a cold shower.

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by mick pinner

in my opinion we are past the point of no return, we have larger issues to concern us anyway, peak oil has been reached already,

No, not really.

I don't know quite where this concept of "peak oil" comes from, but it has the same flavour as most of the doomsday scenarios so beloved of the chattering classes.

The world has never run out of anything.

In the 1860's the world was running out of whale oil - it was a crisis moment of peak whale oil - how would people illuminate their homes with no whale oil? Crunch time.

But it never came.

Neither will peak hydrocarbon oil. Human ingenuity, and the operation of the market, will ensure that we will have enough power to run our civilisation for a long time to come.

An interesting article on this is here:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...40520_oil.html

enjoy and relax

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by Tiroch

To glenc, (Post 52)

I present the following:

http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm

Thanks for this Tiroch. I am rather fond of this Polish Professor (even if I can't pronounce his name) who has spent his life tramping up and down glaciers and is prepared to say that he doesn't see any problems.

The pictures shown by Sonia in one of her posts have the hallmarks to me of Greenpeace style propoganda. As any good filmmaker knows, it is very easy to fool people with images.

I read recently that there is a satellite due to be launched that will accurately measure the ice mass in the antartica. I would prefer to wait for this data, thank you.

[Tiroch]

To All Here,

To clarify I do not recall I ever said that we were not polluting our Home Planet. In fact I said the money being wasted on an insolvable would go a very long way to reducing pollution, cleaning contaminated drinking water, eliminating famines, cutting out slavery and wars.

That being said, the issue of Global Warming (GW) has been defined by the greenies as a matter of pollution by classifying the life giving gas, carbon dioxide, a pollutant.

We can not equate atmospheric pollution to the broader GW matter. On the one hand soot blocks sunlight. On the other hand aerosols cool the atmosphere. And on the third hand carbon dioxide warms the atmosphere. CFC's and ozone are an entirely different issue related to UV penetration.

The Earth's natural condition is warm as per here (again):

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm Scroll down to graph.

We are exiting an historical cool period.

Alex here has defined this as Historic Climate Change - HCC.

[glenc (Glen)]

"So I earn good dollars selling coal process equipment to Russians.
My views have zip to do with my selling to coal producers as it relates to global warming." Tiroch
I find that hard to believe.
This is not a normal warming cycle. We haven't had CO2 levels this high before.

[Tiroch]

Argonavis

About ice data here is the reality in Alaska:

http://www.warwickhughes.com/cool/cool10.htm

[Tiroch]

glenc : Find hard to believe says I'm lying.

I suppose to you if I was an academic paid by taxpayers coming out against the hysteria of the falseness of the GW issue I would be thrown in the trash bin titled "Deniers" by you.

So in your view no matter what I write, I'm lying.

I won't go further as if I do I risk a Moderator dumping the thread.

[glenc (Glen)]

I don't think you are lying. If I had shares or a job in the coal mining industry I would look for evidence that GW is not happening or not man made too.

[Tiroch]

Historical carbon dioxide concentrations:

http://ff.org/centers/csspp/library/...18/dioxide.htm

We currently have an Earth History low.

We continue to suffer from an Importance Complex even though we have only been recording our history for a few thousand years out of the billions of Earth age and we confound it by not realizing recorded temperatures only started after the invention of the thermometer about 150 years ago.

And we further contaminate the GW issue by using false land based temperature measurements (UHI effect) while ignoring satellite measurements showing no discernible warming over the past 20 years (wrote this earlier and repeat for emphasis).

So who is lying? The Earth history?

And to repeat it is not that the Earth is not warming. It is that it is not us as the cause. It is the Solar cycle that is the cause and that directly influences carbon dioxide levels.

Here is a link to the topic of Solar activity and Earth climate:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0607073439.htm

As noted there it is still a matter of more research.

And this looks at both sides of the issue of cause:

http://www.global-warming-and-the-climate.com/

Check out the link through titled: increased levels of greenhouse gases near page bottom.

[glenc (Glen)]

"And we further contaminate the GW issue by using false land based temperature measurements (UHI effect) while ignoring satellite measurements showing no discernible warming over the past 20 years (wrote this earlier and repeat for emphasis)."
This satellite image shows warming, mainly in the north. http://climate.uah.edu/25yearbig.jpg

[Tiroch]

Yes glenc I am aware of the satellites reading northern warming and of course that cannot be disputed but the issue of warming always uses world average temp. Like as in - the world has warmed by ...... The ignoring of UHI remains a valid point as to input data not reflecting reality.

The northern tendency to show more warming than elsewhere has to do with the axis tilt and precession.

This link gets into some of that:

http://www.livescience.com/forcesofn...arth_tilt.html

And this link has quite a bit of Earth climate history:

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVF.../ice_ages.html

[glenc (Glen)]

http://info-pollution.com/chill.htm is an analysis of http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVF.../ice_ages.html
"There appears to be a concerted and systematic effort by some individuals to undermine and discredit the scientific process that has led many scientists working on understanding climate to conclude that there is a very real possibility that humans are modifying Earth's climate on a global scale. Rather than carrying out a legitimate scientific debate through the peer-reviewed literature, they are waging in the public media a vocal campaign against scientific results with which they disagree."
http://info-pollution.com/warming.htm

[merlin8r]

Originally Posted by Argonavis

Do you really think that repacing a few incandescent light bulbs with long life ones, or using public transport, will seriously move the 380ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere down to a pre-industrial 280ppm?

All power stations would have to go. Do you realise what this would do?

And then you will have to deal with the CO2 the remaining humans (those left after starvation and lack of modern public health and medical facilities) will be exhaling.

Even leaving the current level of emissions (which will involve significantly more efficient technology to deal with increases in population and rising living standards in India and China and elsewhere) you will still be increasing the CO2 levels in the atmosphere.

How are you going to get the CO2 back down?

As Lomberg points out, the cost of Kyoto could pay for uncontaminated drinking water for the entire world.

*If* climate change is happening (and history tells us that the climate does change over time) then there not not much humans can do about it.

However, what I suspect we are seeing is the operation of natural cycles, and a lot of hysterical people.

Frankly, YES. To suggest any less is to say "my vote doesn't count". How do we get CO2 levels back down? Easy! Once we stop pumping more than the trees can process into oxygen, the CO2 levels will drop. It really is that simple. It's happened before.
Either way, the Earth will look after itself. Once the carbon gets too high, an ice age is triggered. And they happen quickly. Like ten years quick. You might be prepared to sit on your hands and do nothing because it is too hard, but I am not.

[Tiroch]

Well glenc I stand by Earth History and am not going to flip this and that link anymore as these you post seem to be ignoring Earth history.

Your first link completely ignores that our carbon dioxide concentration is currently far below historical Earth levels and the author has distorted the meaning of such concentrations.

I chose not to get into he/she said and he/she said. The climate history of Earth is well documented (some of my posts) and I'll hang on that. That is an irrefutable fact.

The second link you posted is one I just posted today which I take you posted for the contrary in your first posted link.

In other words this is going nowhere as long as replies are based on ignoring Earth climate history.

It is like trying to argue Napoleon did not attack Moscow.

[Tiroch]

To melin8r,

Yes Ice Ages happen very, very fast.

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/

http://www.usask.ca/geology/classes/...6/glacial.html

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/transit.html

[merlin8r]

Well Tiroch, your work for a mining company, my wife is a geographer. 2 sides of the coin there. But what would she know, right? I said they happen fast, as in from regular to ice age in ten years or so, not that they only last 10 years.

[Tiroch]

No merlin8r I do not work for a mining company. I work since 1990 in the wonderful land of working for myself. I sell my knowledge in that which I know in the area of mineral processing equipment. This knowledge is from starting in this in '59.

That means I need to have Persistence, Patience and Profit. Otherwise I'm not surviving.

[xelasnave]

Well this is what “they” want. Confusion and take your eye off the ball is the game.The promoters of global warming want to cloud the issues. It still boils down to one thing and one thing only it is a machinery to sell desalinators and nuclear power plants (lots of other gear actually as well).. Will we get them.. yes! right after Mr Gore’s final presentation of the problem that nuclear power can solve. Don’t worry about a thing all will be ok just consume as if nothing has happened..It matters not who caused it ..it is here..dont waste money on crap that won’t fix it..just look what they are doing..red herrings everywhere so a bad decision will seem like a good one..look at the events of the next 28 days with my warning in mind… see the reality of the concern. Alex

[casstony]

I was wondering where you had gone Alex; this discussion just didn't seem whole without your input