Are we alone?

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by deanm

I think it would be desperately sad if we knew for certain that we were alone, forever.

What a waste of infinity...

Dean

Reminds me of this quote...

Originally Posted by Movie "Contact"

Ellie Arroway: [to a group of children] I'll tell you one thing about the universe, though. The universe is a pretty big place. It's bigger than anything anyone has ever dreamed of before. So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space. Right?

[xelasnave]

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs...ournalCode=ast
in support of earlier link.
Alex

[simmo]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Hi Simmo
In science the word "theory" holds a meaning different from what you expect.
As I said "theory" is best read as."fact".
That is not my opinion it it the way of things.
I am not disagreeing with anything you day but in science "theory" is a word unlike the one we use day to day.
To have a theory one develops an idea or hypothesis with evidence observation maths and most important testable predictions.
One our scientific theory is in place it takes a better theory to replace it..the now theory must answer problems the first one does not or rather make better predictions..if not the old theory word stay.
This is not my opinion but my attempt to explain the way science sees things.
Alex

Yes fair enough Alex, after researching a little you are correct. I think theory as a word has walked away a bit from its original meaning. English

I thought that theory was just someone's idea until proven as a fact or law, however science seems to have greyed the area. Has the meaning of the word theory in a science context always been this way or does the question need to be asked that have we reached the point of our horizon already? Are we just adopting theories as truth as we'll never know the truth fully? Can theories no longer become law or fact as the unknowns are beyond our comprehension?

Sorry a little off topic

[Stonius (Markus)]

Originally Posted by simmo

Bigbang, evolution,etc. are just theory as far as I know so just speculation of what has happened. People thought the world was flat only a couple of years ago. Until we get a Columbus that sails to 'India' of the universe or can travel back through time we can only live with speculation at best.

Theories can evolve - look at Newton's ideas about gravity compared to Einstein's, but they are also, 'fact' in so far as they are applied. You throw a ball to your friend, you calculate using Newton, you're getting an accurate GPS timing from a satellite in orbit, you use Einstein. But both theories are correct in the fields they are used in. But it's not like a hypothesis, which can fail at the first sign of contrary data, or coexist with any number of competing hypotheses until one is elevated to theory.

Edit; Sorry Simmo - didn't read your reply till it was too late.

[simmo]

Quite alright stonius. Thanks for the description and example as it's all learning and we'll done Alex for the thread. I love philosophical debate.

[raymo]

For me a hypothesis is often little more than an idea put out there within
the relevant scientific community, for discussion and/or debate, whereas
the proposer of a theory is confident of his work, and is, in essence,
challenging his peers to disprove it.
raymo

[xelasnave]

Simmo science is not interested in "truth" as such. It is interested in developing theories, which you really can call laws or facts for the sake of understanding the meaning of the word. The theory gives us a "model" of what we will observe when we encounter a particular situation. We call this a testable prediction.
So as an extreme example I could present a theory which says unicorns cause super nova, using math to show why... Now if I can predict the location and timing of the next five super nova because on my theory that is where the space unicorns hoofs will strike.. And the observations show my predictions are spot on I would suggest my theory will be rated as the best out there... And if you wish to get rid of the space unicorns you need a better explaination, better maths, and something that gives a better result.. Say predicting where they will happen and that they will all be blue... Now I doubt if a yone will use unicorns bht I hope you see what I am driving at.. Unicorns wont be the truth but hey it works as a good theory, it is a good model and it will be used until better replaces it... And replacement is not easy. The old theory will often still be useable as is the case with Newtons gravity.. It still works very well.. It is used for working out most, if not all space flights, yet it is sortta not the truth.
Remember when the Earth was the ce ter of everything and the planets motion described by having them do circles whilst doing their orbit... Not the truth but that is still a good scientific model because using it you can work out, predict, where Saturn will be next Tuesday.
When you get your head around how science "works" you wont argue against it.. If you disagree with the big ba g for example come up with a better model that makes better predictions and you will get a Noble prize and no one will be upset.
Science unlike philosophy doesnot worry about change pbut it wont entertain thenext good idea unless it follows the rules I suggest.
It is a little more complex but I hope what I have run thru helps...
Be careful using the word theory in science it is mkre solid than fact or laws of the state.
Alex

[colinmlegg (Colin)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Hi Rob
I don't not disagree with what you say.
We may be it and be totally alone but we may be one of trillions (check the link I just posted).
I have thinking about this quiet a bit.
I thin we have various pointers that may suggest life could exist in very harshenvironments.
Have a look at exstreamophiles.
You would bet your house that such could not exist yet there they are defying all our preconceived notions.
For me it suggests life will take hold in places we can not yet imagine.
Another pointer is organic materials discovered in comet tails.
Sorry I can't give authority for that but if I am wrong someone will say so of that I am sure.
Another pointer is the life found in rock well underground again no authority but same if wrong I will be told.
But until we find something out there one one of the moons in the solar system or maybe Mars we can only speculate.
Anyways the link suggests trillions I think.
I think life is merely a chemistry thing which we have yet to work out but if someone can create life in the lab such that it is clear it is a chemistry thing that will mean life will be everywhere.
Alex

Alex,

You may be interested in Nick Lane's take on this - http://www.amazon.com/Vital-Question.../dp/0393088812

Latest research suggests life started in deep ocean alkaline vents (note, NOT mid ocean ridge smokers) and the key ingredients are simply - water, olivine rock, CO2. The first fundamental act of life was harnessing the proton gradients that occur naturally in pores within the alkaline vents. These proton gradients are still the core of all life energy metabolism today.

Lots of good physical arguments on why simple life at bacterial level is probably common (where conditions allow), but complex life (eukaryotes) maybe rare.

[csb (Craig)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

The biggest piece of evidence that there must be life elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that it exists here...if life evolved here on Earth, it is clear there is at least one mechanism for it to happen, so why not elsewhere?

You are correct: The fact of life, on Earth, is proof of other life. But maybe not as you mean. The other life out there is actually the creator of everything - often referred to as god.

There is no reason for life to have started from inanimate lifeless material. How can people logically accept that life started by chance. I agree that the evolution theory seems to explain how different species have developed but the initiation of life must have been caused by something - the creator. Simply, life is proof that God exists.

Life on other planets? A creator who made life here has potentially put life on the other worlds he created - why else create so many.

[GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)]

so what your saying is Craig ______

"Adam" started out as a single cell creature - evolved into human form - God then ripped into him and took out one of his ribs and created "Eve"

is that right?

geoff

[xelasnave]

Now everyone lets stay calm.
We are each entitled to our beliefs with out having to defend them.
And just remember we are all friends here so lets respect each others views.

Funny I was thinking if there was a God he would have probably created a greater diversity of life than any of us could imagine. We may be disappointed but would not he have placed life everywhere in the Universe.

Peace tolerence respect and justice to all.
Alex

[GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)]

just asking Alex

just asking

geoff

[csb (Craig)]

I didn't mention Bible stories and I don't subscribe to the literal reading of Adam & Eve. I said that evolution is a worthy theory - it is proved that species have changed over time.

Many people, whether religious or not believe in a creator/God. I was demonstrating that a theory of the origin of life being caused by God is more logical than a theory that ascribes to life, and the universe, starting from nothing at all.

Thanks, Alex for your reminder.

And life on earth is too abundant in variety for anyone to imagine. We are all constantly surprised bt David Attenboroughs shows.

[xelasnave]

Well Craig you will be happy to know the big bang theory does not cover the point of creation but deals only with the evolution of the Universe.
Each of us can try and answer how creation took place and provide our own answers.
The matter is open so one can hold their view whatever it may be.
I hope that helps
Alex

[GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)]

well from my point of view, i just can't fathom that when something that happened/s can't be explained, poor old God gets the blame for it

geoff

[csb (Craig)]

I suppose for many it is believe that everything was created by god and for many others a creator is not considered or is just discounted as not possible.

Some people say evolution proves there is no god.

Others say evolution is untrue because of god (usually referring to the Bible).

But neither of these 2 propositions can be reasoned.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by GTB_an_Owl

well from my point of view, i just can't fathom that when something that happened/s can't be explained, poor old God gets the blame for it

geoff

If you believe that is reasonable if you dont it does not have to bother one.
Humans seem to demand an answer for everything and in the absence of an answer form a belief as to how things must be and it is unlikely we will all form the same belief but we must tolerate others beliefs not to do so does not work well for anyone.
Geoff you know a little of Drake that is where I learnt tolerence.. Tarot cards, crystal power and up the road at home I have pagans, there are hippies, there are ferrals and all sorts really. I can be friends with them all.. There is no need to judge even.. They are who they are its no big deal.
But mostly we only upset ourselves when we chose to confront a different belief.
I know I am getting soft maybe but I like to think my attitude is the way to go.
Must be living in Sydney at the moment a d shopping where Dad and me are the last Aussies with convict ansestors.
Its all good.
Alex

[csb (Craig)]

It used to be that if you denied there is a god then you were severely criticised by believers. Now, if you say there is a god you will be criticised usually in scoffing manner by non-believers. What a turn!

[GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)]

your absolutely right Alex

and i wish i could spend more time with them up in Drake and Tabby

geoff

[csb (Craig)]

Originally Posted by GTB_an_Owl

well from my point of view, i just can't fathom that when something that happened/s can't be explained, poor old God gets the blame for it

geoff

Well, people wonder how did the universe start. The Big Bang is the current favoured theory. Then people wonder what caused the big bang. Many say the answer is God. You can call it the God theory. It is a legitimate theory?