Don't mention the ....

[AndrewJ]

But don't forget - we are still the wealthiest country in the world on a median basis

And we are also one of the costliest places to live.
Its all relative
( Why do you reckon you were all overseas )

Andrew

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by Renato1

But don't forget - we are still the wealthiest country in the world on a median basis (2013 Credit Swisse World Wealth Report).
Renato

.... and the measurement is always in $ Hardly valid. One just about every other measure, we're deep in it. I'd love to see a measure of GDH rather than GDP. In that regard, we all pretty much need Valium.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Renato1

I don't think we realise how good we have it down here, especially compared to the state of permanent austerity now in Europe, or of working like manics in Asia. I just want a government that takes steps to keep it that way.
Cheers,
Renato

With our tremendous private debt we're in a very fragile state and both sides of govt worked with banks to create that problem. If China slows significantly and our housing bubble pops and the banking system becomes unstable we won't look much better than a lot of other countries.
I feel sorry for all the poor buggers conned into taking out massive house loans over the last two decades. We might keep chugging along or everything could suddenly collapse, only time will tell.

[Renato1 (Renato)]

Originally Posted by el_draco

.... and the measurement is always in $ Hardly valid. One just about every other measure, we're deep in it. I'd love to see a measure of GDH rather than GDP. In that regard, we all pretty much need Valium.

You can use lots of different measures to measure wealth, like GDP per person (which makes Lichtenstein the second richest country on the planet), or average wealth per person, which puts lots of other countries ahead of us.

But for the average person in the country, Credit Swisse's median measure is the most accurate and relevant.

Basically, the richest 10% of Australians own 50% of the wealth. In comparison, in America they own around 75%, and in the UK they own around 84%. And it get worse in other countries.

So it matters little to the average citizen if a country has the highest average wealth or highest average GDP per person, as that average is bumped up by billionaires who own most of it.

The median measure shows that governments in Australia of both persuasions have for the most part set things up to spread the wealth much more evenly among the population.
Regards,
Renato

[Renato1 (Renato)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

And we are also one of the costliest places to live.
Its all relative
( Why do you reckon you were all overseas )

Andrew

Hi Andrew,
I spent three months in one of the relatively wealthy regions of northern Italy last year. Pretty much everything there, except for potato chips, peanuts, spirits, liqueurs, cigarettes and Pepsi, is significantly dearer than here. And their typical wages are significantly lower than here. I kept scratching my head on how they made ends meet.

And after three days of driving around in Switzerland, I decided it was way dearer than Italy, and got out of there.

And that was at a time when our dollar was really high (70 Euro cents to the AUD). I've been there when it was 48 Euro cents to the AUD, and that was a case of ouch.

There are plenty of costlier places to live, than in Australia.
Cheers,
Renato

[Renato1 (Renato)]

Originally Posted by casstony

With our tremendous private debt we're in a very fragile state and both sides of govt worked with banks to create that problem. If China slows significantly and our housing bubble pops and the banking system becomes unstable we won't look much better than a lot of other countries.
I feel sorry for all the poor buggers conned into taking out massive house loans over the last two decades. We might keep chugging along or everything could suddenly collapse, only time will tell.

Last I saw, in sharp contrast to the Gillard and Rudd governments, average Australians did the opposite and took the opportunity to pay off a very large amount of household debt. It still hasn't recovered to the level pre GFC.

And given the very real concerns which you cite, I suspect they'll be wary of splurging big on debt for quite a while yet.
Regards,
Renato

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by Renato1

You can use lots of different measures to measure wealth, like GDP per person (which makes Lichtenstein the second richest country on the planet), or average wealth per person, which puts lots of other countries ahead of us.

But for the average person in the country, Credit Swisse's median measure is the most accurate and relevant.

Basically, the richest 10% of Australians own 50% of the wealth. In comparison, in America they own around 75%, and in the UK they own around 84%. And it get worse in other countries.

So it matters little to the average citizen if a country has the highest average wealth or highest average GDP per person, as that average is bumped up by billionaires who own most of it.

The median measure shows that governments in Australia of both persuasions have for the most part set things up to spread the wealth much more evenly among the population.
Regards,
Renato

You missed the point entirely. Being wealthy in $ terms is of zero value if it kills you getting there, results in the devastation of your environment and the destruction of a way of life. Our environment is on the verge of systemic collapse and the box heads in Cantberra and the individual states seem incapable of doing anything other than screwing everyone over.

When I was a kid, the Great Barrier reef was a wonder of the world to be protected at all costs. Now, substantial amounts of it is DEAD and the rest will surely follow in the pursuit of the all mighty buck. I could swim in the Murray without needing medical attention afterwards and the area where I grew up produced fruit without having to pump saline water out from under the trees...

Right now, both levels of moron government seem adamant that they'll attack the Tassie rainforests despite every argument against it. Why? Simple brainless self-interested egotistical short sighted spite.

Australia wealthy? "Impoverished" would be a more accurate description and its gonna get much worse unless we stand up against the scum in the parliaments of this country.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Renato1

Last I saw, in sharp contrast to the Gillard and Rudd governments, average Australians did the opposite and took the opportunity to pay off a very large amount of household debt.

They haven't paid off a large amount - they don't have the capacity to pay off a large amount.

http://2.static.australianindependen...?itok=rDMEHaXN


http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...as-debt-crisis

[Kunama]

It seems people are in general very quick to blame someone else for being in debt hundreds of thousands of dollars. It is not the banks' fault that people overestimate their ability to pay off loans. The banks are only promoting their 'goods' as any other business would. You don't rush out and buy a top of the range Mercedes even if you see them advertised on TV, yet people regularly buy champagne homes on beer budgets.

Too many people take the bank's advice for wealth creation, they are really only interested in creating wealth for their shareholders. Get independent financial guidance and investment advise, don't blame banks for doing their job well.
Yes the 'home loan' is a necessary evil for most in society, the wise ones get it paid off as quickly as possible and to do that make many sacrifices.
Personally I worked shiftwork for 20 years as well as running a weekend business and spent very meagrely on 'entertainment' until my mortgage was repaid (30 yr loan repaid in 10 years).

The nature of government spending in Australia is to hit the public hard in the first year so you can buy them lollies in your last year to get re-elected, it matters not whether they be Labor or Liberal, they all do the same thing and each election the donkey voters fall for the rhetoric.
Then at the next budget the cycle continues.

One thing for sure, you cannot and you should not expect that there will be an age pension to feed you in old age, sure there will be something so one won't starve but we should all plan for a self-funded retirement.

[Renato1 (Renato)]

Originally Posted by el_draco

You missed the point entirely. Being wealthy in $ terms is of zero value if it kills you getting there, results in the devastation of your environment and the destruction of a way of life. Our environment is on the verge of systemic collapse and the box heads in Cantberra and the individual states seem incapable of doing anything other than screwing everyone over.

When I was a kid, the Great Barrier reef was a wonder of the world to be protected at all costs. Now, substantial amounts of it is DEAD and the rest will surely follow in the pursuit of the all mighty buck. I could swim in the Murray without needing medical attention afterwards and the area where I grew up produced fruit without having to pump saline water out from under the trees...

Right now, both levels of moron government seem adamant that they'll attack the Tassie rainforests despite every argument against it. Why? Simple brainless self-interested egotistical short sighted spite.

Australia wealthy? "Impoverished" would be a more accurate description and its gonna get much worse unless we stand up against the scum in the parliaments of this country.

Tasmania has the highest unemployment, highest youth unemployment, and lowest standard of living of any State, despite being subsidised to the hilt by the rest of the country, mainly because it has killed off a lot of jobs for the sake of many dubious environmental causes.

I suspect many people would be happy that the rest of the country hasn't followed the example set by Tasmania.

The Barrier reef has been going to die for the 50 years that I can remember, and it is still going strong. Last time I was at Echuca, people seemed to be happily water skiing and swimming in the Murray without ill effect. The effects of salinity is a problem resulting from irrigation, but if they hadn't had irrigation, well, you wouldn't have lived there.

The notion of the Australian environment being of a state of "devastation" is pure hyperbole.
Regards,
Renato

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Kunama

Yes the 'home loan' is a necessary evil for most in society, the wise ones get it paid off as quickly as possible and to do that make many sacrifices.
Personally I worked shiftwork for 20 years as well as running a weekend business and spent very meagrely on 'entertainment' until my mortgage was repaid (30 yr loan repaid in 10 years).

Too true. I hammered mine as quick as I could. I'm happy now I'm out of debt I have more options and help the kids. Imagine going into retirement with a mortgage. Another thing great about this country is that banks will lend you money here so you do have the opportunity to buy your own place. Back home you get jack squat if you have no existing asset or a high paying job. People forget that they have it easy here.

Originally Posted by Kunama

One thing for sure, you cannot and you should not expect that there will be an age pension to feed you in old age, sure there will be something so one won't starve but we should all plan for a self-funded retirement.

I had that figured out when I was living in France. In oz you can setup SMSFs which is great, not that easy back home. I'll now have a better life in retirement that I did all my working life. Just worked my ass off. Looking forward to chill out and travel around with the missus.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Marc

I'll now have a better life in retirement that I did all my working life.

I sure hope you are right, but i really fear the govt will start to tinker with super in a few years when they realise its the only big pot of money left.
I can see them tightening up how much you will be allowed to draw out based on age, as well as grabbing the residual when you die.
They wont be able to resist
( I hope i am wrong, but i dont think so )

Andrew

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by Renato1

Tasmania has the highest unemployment, highest youth unemployment, and lowest standard of living of any State, despite being subsidised to the hilt by the rest of the country, mainly because it has killed off a lot of jobs for the sake of many dubious environmental causes.

I suspect many people would be happy that the rest of the country hasn't followed the example set by Tasmania.

The Barrier reef has been going to die for the 50 years that I can remember, and it is still going strong. Last time I was at Echuca, people seemed to be happily water skiing and swimming in the Murray without ill effect. The effects of salinity is a problem resulting from irrigation, but if they hadn't had irrigation, well, you wouldn't have lived there.

The notion of the Australian environment being of a state of "devastation" is pure hyperbole.
Regards,
Renato

You still miss the point and you should read some scientific journals and a few historical texts as well.

1/ We get Blue Green algae blooms in the Murray regularity, 1.1 million truck loads of salt flow down it every year and it looks and often smells like a sewer. (lived there!) It flows upside down, when it flows, thanks to invasive species such as Euopean carp and the famous wonderful Murray cod is almost GONE!

2/ The direct damage to the GBR through over development and run-off alone are well documented, let alone the follow on effects of the Crown of Thorns, coral bleaching through climate change and the additional burden of crap flowing off the QLD coast as the population continues to grow insanely. (By the way, I went there for the first time in 30 years a couple of years back, and didn't even recognise the place!!)

3/ Tasmania is a small state with a small population and that is an disadvantage when dealing with some challenges. Its also located about as far South as you can get and our "sea highway" is problematic at best. However, as part of a federation where we are supposed to support each other, we need extra funding in some areas. I believe QLD, SA, NT and WA have been in the same place on occasion, and quite recently at that. I also remember paying a QLD flood levy because the pollies couldn't be bothered insuring against flood... We shouldn't throw stones in glass-houses.

Its very interesting that mainlanders, (of which I was once one), like to bag out Tasmania, yet also love our wines, salmon, world class Whiskey, cheeses, meats, seafood etc, etc, and use the opiates we produce after surgery. Of course, a large number of mainlanders also like to visit the rainforests we have fought to protect for 30 years... Funny about that.

Perhaps we should follow the mainland example; strip and degrade our forests for short term gain, or maybe charge mainlanders a "look we didn't screw our environment visitor fee"

Of course, after 30 years of standing up to corrupt poliies and companies down here, most of he world has caught up to backward Tasmaina and nobody will actually buy the wood earmarked for logging because it doesn't meet Forest Stewardship standards. Funny about that as well

The forestry debate is fascinating. We had peace here before the liberals got involved. Even the loggers came to the table at the end. Tasmanians want a sustainable forestry industry rather than a slash and burn culture... At a recent rally in the Upper Forentine defying the govt, 2000 people showed up after driving 100+ kms from Hobart on a wet and cold day. Amongst them, loggers, oh, and mainlanders. Its a complex issue...

Its hard to justify trashing all our specialty timbers to establish mono-cultures devoid of a range of important species used in boat building and fine furniture manufacturing, for example. Apart from the loss of biodiversity, (certainly not a dubious cause I think), its simple bad form to do it. On my block I found the outline of a tree stump almost 4m in diameter. Wish my son could have seen it alive but he does get to see the 60m high tree I call "el captain"... because the cable loggers couldn't get to it. Imagine what must have been at Sherwood near Melbourne 150 years ago!

Then of course, you probably didn't know the forestry industry in Tassie had been shedding thousands of jobs on a regular basis prior to the forestry confrontation. Automation was part of it, the ability to rape Indonesian and Amazonian forests without as much scrutiny was another. Interesting

Regardless, you are quite correct in saying Tassie has problems, just like the other states, and it ain't helped by incompetent moronic pollies.... I completely agree with you in relation to the youth and general unemployment levels here. Gawd, we have some bluggers here, but I remember seeing a ****e load of young blokes surfing mid week at Maroochydore as well....

Part of that problem is federal policy. Why work when someone else will "pay" you? Both major species of polly have encouraged that one. Another issue is the lack of accountability... all supported either directly or indirectly by govt. The problem is, we are stuck in 19th century thinking, "rip it down, dig it up, exploit it" and that thinking is almost done with in many parts of the world. To develop, new industries for the future, you need leaders with real vision, beyond the electoral cycle farce, and an education. You have to work at both which goes back to the first point... Please don't blame teachers for that one, its systemic and becoming a generational issue. Oh, and its gonna get a whole lot more expensive to go to uin as well...

Before bagging Tassie though, do some research mate; the reality is a little more surprising than you may think. That's why I now live here, and not there...

Rom

[casstony]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Another thing great about this country is that banks will lend you money here so you do have the opportunity to buy your own place. Back home you get jack squat if you have no existing asset or a high paying job. People forget that they have it easy here.

The other side of that coin is that easy money leads to asset bubbles, funded with excess borrowing, necessitating reduced economic activity in future to deal with the debt. Governments don't want reduced economic activity so they drop interest rates further, stimulate the economy with borrowing or printing and then we end up where the world is now.

Money needs to be correctly priced, not too hard or too easy to get.

[JJDOBBER79 (Jas)]

The real issue is that people by nature are self interested. Why do I have to pay that? Why do I have to pay this? Why doesn't he have to pay it?
Most people fail to see the big picture which is...
If/when we get the country in a good economic state, EVERYONE MAKES MONEY!!!! Yes, even those on welfare. I bet none of the self interested people who are complaining about the budget put mr rudds 1k cheque back in the envelope and returned it to him. There's no such thing as a free lunch people. We are now receiving the bill + interest. I, by the way didn't receive either of the payouts because apparently I earn too much. Ooops.... There I go being self interested. Anyway, I see someone started a thread that has religion in the title, can't wait to get on board that next.

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by JJDOBBER79

The real issue is that people by nature are self interested. Why do I have to pay that? Why do I have to pay this? Why doesn't he have to pay it?
Most people fail to see the big picture which is...
If/when we get the country in a good economic state, EVERYONE MAKES MONEY!!!! Yes, even those on welfare. I bet none of the self interested people who are complaining about the budget put mr rudds 1k cheque back in the envelope and returned it to him. There's no such thing as a free lunch people. We are now receiving the bill + interest. I, by the way didn't receive either of the payouts because apparently I earn too much. Ooops.... There I go being self interested. Anyway, I see someone started a thread that has religion in the title, can't wait to get on board that next.

Love it... I gave my $1k cheque to charity, also earn to much for a free "pay" though I'll be stuffed if I know how, and..... the religion thread is spam.... There, you're disappointed again!!!

Rom

[multiweb (Marc)]

I'm just gobsmacked how the media campaign polarized on who's a bast4rd and who's fair in the following of the budget announcement. I mean we all know we're in the deepest sh|t ever right?... apart for people in denial. But the focus is now on who's more popular again and polls galore. Really? What gives? If they don't like what they're hearing what's the alternative? More spending? And who's gonna pay? Us again? LOL - talk about love for punishment. No brain or short term memory.

[Retrograde (Pete)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I mean we all know we're in the deepest sh|t ever right?... apart for people in denial.

No we're not (and here's some reasons why):

1) Our debt to GDP ratio (the correct measure) has been higher in the past.
2) The USA hasn't had as low a debt to GDP ratio as us since....... 1918!
(yes the 2nd world war, the space race, being a 20th century global superpower: all achieved with a higher debt to GDP ratio than we have at present) The USA's current problems are far more recent in origin.
3) Gross debt is not a true measure of debt - it's like adding up all your credit card spending and ignoring repayments & in reality to do with the size of the government bond market. It has just become the Coalition's measurement of choice since scary debt numbers became their no.1 political tool. Net debt is the true measure: we should all learn the difference.
4) What's printed in the Daily Tonygraph (aka the Tele) is not news - it's propaganda.
5) Spending in this budget is actually up over the last 3 Labor (post GFC) budgets. It's not fixing anything but actually making things worse.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Retrograde

No we're not (and here's some reasons why...

Oh good, all is well then. I'll tell my son not to worry. It's all laid out for him now.

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Oh good, all is well then. I'll tell my son not to worry. It's all laid out for him now.

None so blind as those that will not see.