which still does not excuse this behaviour. Low self esteem, marginalisation, dis- enfranchising or what ever you want to call it.
This is opportunism, maybe fuelled by socio-economic triggers but look at the footage, kids laughing whilst looting, and many hoods up on the hoodies. Which means they know it's wrong and don't really want to be on CCTV, and there is no grand political statement there. It's criminality.
Darcus Howe may spin it, but the same situation ( as reported) by many people here as existed in the UK for years -re. 1981 Toxteth riots.
Plain and simple wrong.
graham
I think unemployment as we know it is a capitalist phenomena - certainly capitalism requires unemployment. I'm not sure but perhaps it only postdates the clearances and the rise of the factories.
I have thought along similar lines, but would wonder if the computerisation and mechanisation of pretty much everything in "first world" environments has now got to a point where it has removed the "need" for masses of relatively unskilled labour.
In the current first world system, it appears that everything possible is done to remove the requirement to pay "full price" for "people" who cant generate more income than they cost.
I doubt there is now a way for a society based on the current economic models to deal with this, esp as the "unskilled" population increases at the rate it does.
Some people (I am speaking in general terms from various media comments) need to stop blaming poverty, unemployment, etc... for these riots. I lived for 5 years in rural Africa. People struggles to get one meal a day but didn't loot or riot. Most genuine poor people I met were quite polite, kind and considerate. Elders are respected. Youths wouldn't dream of answering back to anyone older than themselves - regardless of their own education or lack of. The rural (and poorer areas) showed this even more so than the urban, richer areas.
What we are seeing is greed. Society doesn't teach or instill respect for authority or for other people. It is cooler to question than it is to obey. While that is good in some ways, the British are now reaping the effects of TV pushing boundaries, social media, lack of respect for anyone older than yourself, etc...
No simple solutions to the problems in UK, but lets not say they are hard done by. Most would get more than one meal a day. Most have access to schools. Most have far better opportunities than 90% of the world - even if they are an ethnic minority in the UK they still have it better off than most places in the world. Yet some people try to excuse the poor behaviour...
There is the basis of the problem. Those tribes in africa have a culture that listens to their elders and learn the rules from an early age.
Modern western culture has removed the respesct for the elders, ethics etc and allows the new generation to do what they like ( the permissive society).
The problem will only get worse because the main instigators of the problem will not be caught.
The problem will only get worse because the main instigators of the problem will not be caught.
Barry
The main instigators removed regulations designed to restrict lending to reasonable levels leading to assett bubbles and unsustainable private debt. They're currently overseeing the transfer of private debt to the government balance sheet such that entire nations are at risk of becoming insolvent. They sit in their ivory towers unconcerned about the pleb's fighting amongst ourselves. And you're right, they're not going to get caught - it's the pondlife who pay the price for banksters excesses.
I'm not trying to excuse this behaviour, I'm trying to understand it. If you want to treat a diseased person you first need a diagnosis, same with social diseases. The police actions can suppress this situation, and that needs to be done, but unless you want the same to happen again, with more force, then you need to get at the root cause.
Personally these angry young men scare me. Paul made a comment about the great unwashed getting organised but I don't believe that is an example of that. The peaceful demo of 2,000 people was such an example but this is just venting. My fear is that this pent up anger can be manipulated and channelled by demagogues in such a way as they act against their own best interests and the best interests of society at large. It's happened before in Europe. Of course the outcome would not look exactly like Nazism or Italian facsism but the social content could be much the same. This may not worry the big end of town - trains running on time is good for business - but the rest of us have a real stake in preventing it.
I notice these 'poor' people have enough money to afford a Blackberry.
Jealousy is more consistent with the situation as far as I can see.
There's something to do with idle hands do the work of the Devil about the whole thing.
Some of the kids are taking the opportunity to 'rage' against the bonds of civilisation by taking part, but there's an underlying agenda that is orchestrating the systematic destruction of the UK social system.
Unemployment is a problem but a lot of the youth are ghettoised and not able to break out of second generation unemployment.
I remember watching a film with Julie Walters - 'Educating Rita' it showed a class system still existing in UK.
This class system was abandoned by the Labour Government in the 70's, and they've been feeling the effects of it since.
Integration of foreign nationals with UK birth certificates over the last 50 years has been totally neglected, in a country that has integrated with every European nation in the last 1000 years.
Opening the borders to a flood of immigration hasn't eased the racialism of the immigrants - who now rail against the rich white man, having sucked on the teat of social welfare for the last 40 years.
Blame cannot be laid at anyone's door. Change has to take place, but the political system won't allow change that quickly.
Everything works while the system is fat with cash. It breaks down pretty swiftly when the cash is stripped by market crashes.
The main instigators removed regulations designed to restrict lending to reasonable levels leading to assett bubbles and unsustainable private debt. They're currently overseeing the transfer of private debt to the government balance sheet such that entire nations are at risk of becoming insolvent. They sit in their ivory towers unconcerned about the pleb's fighting amongst ourselves. And you're right, they're not going to get caught - it's the pondlife who pay the price for banksters excesses.
...well let them eat cake
I study history and similar has happened in many civilisations.
It is not unreasonable to expect bad social behaviour from folk who feel victims of society and not a beneficiary of an age like none before.
Before anyone condems the unemployed or the poor we could do well to address the fact that manipulation of employement is simply a well used tool of all Governments to regulate inflation.
There are economists here who could confirm the "optimum Unemployement policy" as fact but it boils down to curb inflation we simply raise interest rates to throw people out of work...not to put to fine a point on it.
If that is one of the tools used to regulate economies it is unfortunate that the unemployed somehow become the nasties...
I wonder how many of these people on the streets robbing etc are simply just sick of seeing massive wealth manipulation and they cant even find the rent.
It is a concern ..prior to the French Revolution there was a massive separation between the haves and the have nots and it was not addressed....
when the people asked for bread their ruler was so out of touch ..well we get that most famous line....
well let them eat cake.
she did not get it and she did not care....
If you are employed ones responce is..well let them get a job...that gets very hard for some folk and these are the folk that a business has to let go when interests rates go up...
If the cake eaters dont reform things this behaviour could become the norm.
The general public residents from the suburbs under attack have formed small armies to ASSIST police in this battle against the rioters!
They are taking the streets back.
And other groups have formed calling themselves the 'BROOM ARMY'.
They are taking over the streets and cleaning up the damage and sweeping glass and rubbish off the streets.
And these aren't just a small few. There are hundreds in each group!
The general public residents from the suburbs under attack have formed small armies to ASSIST police in this battle against the rioters!
They are taking the streets back.
And other groups have formed calling themselves the 'BROOM ARMY'.
They are taking over the streets and cleaning up the damage and sweeping glass and rubbish off the streets.
And these aren't just a small few. There are hundreds in each group!
I don't know if this has been mentioned before ....watch a movie called " Inside Job " a real eye opener on how the " Bankers " caused all the heartache in the World's Finance System .... The US Federal Reserve has a lot to answer for.
WATCH THE MOVIE.
a real eye opener.
Flash
Last edited by h0ughy; 10-08-2011 at 09:14 PM.
Reason: copyrighted material removed
French peasants did not have blackberries or decent cloths... compare the pictures of the poor coming out of Somalia this week with the rioters in London.
Yes we can help the poor and unemployed, but excuse these rioters?? Forget it.
Last edited by Gem; 10-08-2011 at 08:14 PM.
Reason: typo
French peasants did not have blackberries or decent cloths... compare the pictures of the poor coming out of Somalia this week with the rioters in London.
Yes we can help the poor and unemployed, but excuse these rioters?? Forget it.
French peasants did not have blackberries or decent cloths... compare the pictures of the poor coming out of Somalia this week with the rioters in London.
Yes we can help the poor and unemployed, but excuse these rioters?? Forget it.
If I gave the impression such action is excusable I am sorry I dont think that....that was not my point at all.
I think the reason why many things thru history were built was mainly to keep the "mob" occupied and under control.
We experience times where efficiencies means less bodies are required...and while we have this more bodies arrive ... people need to be occupied and included in society if idle and not part of a future then no good can come of it.
But wasnt it great to see the broom army...typical Brittish come back.
alex
Being 'poor' in modern Britain is a long way from being poor in medieval Britain - No one "owns" you, rats aren't eating your dead children, you will not die of plague and sun-up to sun-down backbreaking labour is only for wealthy farmers.
This disparity of welath is largely perceptual.
Just because Clyde over there studied and passed his A-levels, does not make him filthy rich. Especially as you, Derrick, spent most of high-school getting high and *****ing about how 'oppressed' you were.
Want does not equal need. Need does not equal entitlement.
Many of the people (black, white, asian) who lived on the same council estate I did, were 3rd and 4th generation "wards of the state".
They were always banging-on about their rights, and what the state should be doing for them - but never about their responsibilities or what they could do to change their situation..
Always what others owed them. Granted they were inculcated with this ideology from an early age, but at some point native wit has to take over and an individual has to realise that the ultimate reasponsibility for his or her life is theirs alone.
Always the hardest-working people I saw were first or second generation immigrants from somewhere truly awful and they despised the laziness, cynicism and FU attitude of the local 'victims'.
Gangs of yuppies from Hampstead did not get on trains or buses, come to Hackney and piss in the stairwells, break windows, assault girls or burn cars.
My father's family was dirt-poor in a neighbourhood where dirt was cheap. He and his 'kind' were the n*****s of the time.
His cockney accent marked him as 'not one of us'.
Nevertheless, he studied hard and got a scholarship to Oxford.
Even in the middle of the depression he got a job.
These opportunities exist even more-so today, especially with 'positive descrimination'.
However 50 years of socialism and a culture of victimology has convinced generations that 'the system' is to blame and they somehow stand apart.
All this will blow over. The weather will change and everyone will go back to working, theiving, scroungeing or whatever.
To those who propose a more 'socially equitable' system of economics:
Do you honestly think that the rioters would be any smarter, more resposible or more affluent under any other system?
