Uncertain what a carbon tax is

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Paddy

That's my understanding and fits with my own experience. The second hand panels that we put on our house 14 years ago are still going strong. They do become a bit less efficient over time, but they still produce quite a lot of power with no maintenance. Don't know about recycling them as I've always understood that they will stay on the roof and keep supplying us with power.

Fair enough. They seem to run efficiently and last the distance then. I'm talking about recycling because I got my Dad visting me from France back in Jan and he said they have massive problems recycling the old stuff back home. It's a fiasco with the total energy bill.

[ving (David)]

the human race as a whole produces 2-3% of the total CO2... the rest is produced by nature... well documented.

maybe we should tax mother nature? :p

however that said we need to curb other pollutions created by us.

[TrevorW]

We are all consumers, simplistically, less consumption, less production, leads to less pollution

[CDKPhil]

I read a paper a while ago suggesting that climate change was not caused by CO2 but was caused by the amount of phosphorus in the atmosphere. The phosphorus comes from all of the bombs that have been exploded in the wars, this and last century. Apparently there is a direct correlation with each war and changes in the climate for that period. It is having an accumulative effect. The paper did not get published because it went against the current climate change model.
There is no doubt in my mind that the climate is changing. The source of the change is yet to be proven.
I am not a climate sceptic I am a government BS sceptic.

Take it or leave it.

Phil

[Jeffkop (Jeff)]

Originally Posted by CDKPhil

I read a paper a while ago suggesting that climate change was not caused by CO2 but was caused by the amount of phosphorus in the atmosphere. The phosphorus comes from all of the bombs that have been exploded in the wars, this and last century. Apparently there is a direct correlation with each war and changes in the climate for that period. It is having an accumulative effect. The paper did not get published because it went against the current climate change model.
There is no doubt in my mind that the climate is changing. The source of the change is yet to be proven.
I am not a climate sceptic I am a government BS sceptic.

Take it or leave it.

Phil

I'll take it !!! ... People are justifiably sceptical at how public monies are collected / utilized.

And another entirely logical idea thrown into the debate as well ... I am saddened however as if the war thing is true then we are in trouble. The world might be able to curtail a lot of things but war ???

The best we can hope for then is laser wars ... Help save the planet by environmentally friendly elimination of your neighbours

[CDKPhil]

Originally Posted by Jeffkop

The best we can hope for then is laser wars ... Help save the planet by environmentally friendly elimination of your neighbours

[M_Lewis (Mark)]

So, tell me forum, when did the last new tax make you richer....?

[Paddy (Patrick)]

Originally Posted by M_Lewis

So, tell me forum, when did the last new tax make you richer....?

Well... taxes don't increase my bank account, but they sure make me richer. They've provided me with education, health care, roads, police, safety, telecommunications infrastructure, scientific research, quarantine, a military if we need one, social security so that people can have enough to eat and don't have to resort to crime to live, some regulation of business and finance so corruption is not rampant. Lots of things. If you want to see how rich you can be without taxes, have a look at Pakistan. Only 1% of the population pay tax. Great place to live?

And I'm more than happy to pay the true cost of things, to pay for things that don't ruin the planet. There is only one planet like Earth that we know of. Looking after it is a lot more important to me than a big house, big car or big TV and we can change our industries without losing jobs. We have done it before - the jobs will just change over time. How many stonemasons are there now compared to 1860?

[Paddy (Patrick)]

Sorry, forgot trains, buses, airports, air traffic control, street lights, libraries, the ABC, firefighters, ambulances, the SES, flood relief, bushfire relief, negotiation with other countries etc etc etc that I get from taxes.

[Brian W (Brian)]

Originally Posted by M_Lewis

So, tell me forum, when did the last new tax make you richer....?

And I live in the Philippines where there are minimal (equivalent of 5 coconuts to pay taxes on land and buildings worth quite a lot) and children die due to lack of medical care, schools are not free so many cannot go, police are corrupt because of low wages, and municipal infrastructures are a joke. And lord help you if you want to find a public library!

Capitalism minus taxes = corruption, poverty, and anarchy.

trust me pay your taxes and be thankful.
Brian

[CDKPhil]

Originally Posted by Paddy

Well... taxes don't increase my bank account, but they sure make me richer. They've provided me with education, health care, roads, police, safety, telecommunications infrastructure, scientific research, quarantine, a military if we need one, social security so that people can have enough to eat and don't have to resort to crime to live, some regulation of business and finance so corruption is not rampant. Lots of things. If you want to see how rich you can be without taxes, have a look at Pakistan. Only 1% of the population pay tax. Great place to live?

And I'm more than happy to pay the true cost of things, to pay for things that don't ruin the planet. There is only one planet like Earth that we know of. Looking after it is a lot more important to me than a big house, big car or big TV and we can change our industries without losing jobs. We have done it before - the jobs will just change over time. How many stonemasons are there now compared to 1860?

Telecommunications privatised, roads privatised, electricity privatised, water privatised, transport privatised. The government wants this carbon tax because it is not earning the revenue from the utility's any more.
The military wastes 1 billion dollars a year in Afghanistan let alone the other campaigns that it is involved in.

I do not mind paying tax. Everybody pays tax weather they like it or not (GST). We do need to pay tax.
But when I see my tax dollar that helped pay for all of that infrastructure going to private companies, sold without the peoples permission makes me feel sick.
The roads in Australia are terrible, the medical system is flawed, our education system is a joke. The cost of water, electricity, telecommunications is going up because the share holder has to make a 10% profit every year.

You don't really believe that a carbon tax will help our Country or the planet do you?

Only 10% of the money from that tax is going to go to renewable energy.
It shows that the government just wants more money from the people.
Another TAX to add to the long list of taxes that we already pay.
If the government was serious about reducing CO2 emissions, 100% of the revenue would go to greener energy and greener manufacturing techniques.
The Government could not get their 12 billion mining tax so this is the second choice, use climate change as an excuse.
Yes we do need to stop polluting the planet. Like I said before in another post. Turn off the streetlights and the multi story building lights and all of the other lights that are on for no reason (other than to make things look good). And we will have an instant reduction in CO2 emissions. and save the taxpayer millions.

Phil

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

The roads in Australia are terrible, the medical system is flawed, our education system is a joke.

The cost of water, electricity, telecommunications is going up because the share holder has to make a 10% profit every year.

Hi Phil,

These are interesting comments, that we all hear rather often (over many years and different governments) but can anyone provide us with reliable assessments on how Australia directly compares to the rest of the World in these departments?

Roads:
Medical system:
Education system:
Electricity:
Water:
Telecomunications:

Also add:

Overall standard of living:
Quality and freedom of Government systems:
Freedom of Religion:
Status of women:
Life expectancy:
Quality of employment and conditions:
Quality of social welfare system:

Probably a few other useful comparisons to see how good, or not, it is here?

No need for flippant responses, do the research and see..

Wouldn't you like to see how we really compare

Mike

[Brian W (Brian)]

The following link indicates that with datum collected in 2007 the United Nations lists Australia as #2 most desirable country to live in.
Brian
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/best-...es-2009-un-hdi

[multiweb (Marc)]

Been around and lived around a fair bit. Australia's at the top of the list. Best place on earth. Right now just a bunch of clowns driving it (in circles) for the next 2 years. Patience. Life is still bloody good though. Minor annoyance.

[CDKPhil]

I think we live in the best country in the world.
And there is no way I would live anywhere else.
But there are a lot of people in this country who are doing it quite tough.
who struggle to pay the bills and have enough money to live. Another tax will just add to this.

It makes me said to see governments with no long term plans for the future of this nation, only sort term grabs for cash. Or promises just to get reelected.
The standard of living here is being slowly reduced. People can't even afford to buy a home. The average house price is over 6 times the annual income. Were as with the baby boomer generation it was only 1 to 2 times. so I do not see how our standard of living is so great.
The amount of people who live on the street, the amount of people waiting for government housing.
The standard of living is high for only a few in this country. When it used to be many.
With our mineral resources, our technologies, we should have the highest standard of living in the world. And we have not.
Yes when you compare Australia to third world countries it looks like heaven. When you compare it to countries like Germany maybe not.

But it is not about comparisons it is about doing the best with what we have. And we could do a lot better. We could be a shining light for the rest of the world but we are controlled by greedy corporations who's fingers are so deep in our governments pockets they will never come out.

I would like to add that I am not a communist.
I want to see what is best for our country and the people who live in it. I do not want to see it in my children's future, turn into a third world country. And don't say that can't happen. Look what happened to Argentina.


Phil

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Brian W

The following link indicates that with datum collected in 2007 the United Nations lists Australia as #2 most desirable country to live in.
Brian
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/best-...es-2009-un-hdi

That report was discissed in another thread where it was pointed out that the criteria didn't include the frequency of clear skies or the quality of deep sky objects visible from that country. Take that into account and we could move up the list two places (ie Australia first and daylight second).

[Brian W (Brian)]

Just something to consider... societies are always segregated into haves and have nots. No matter how rich or how much of a shining light any society is there will always be those who have less. The question is not how can a society eliminate the poor but rather how can a society elevate the poor to a standard where they too have the basic necessities and maybe even a luxury or two.

Take myself as an example. I am Canadian and when I was about 30 I came down with Multiple Sclerosis. After about 10 years it developed to the point where I was unable to work. I took a disability pension.

My pension is roughly $800.00 per month which equals $9600 a year. The poverty level in Canada is @ $24,000.00 per year. Thankfully my pension follows me so I live in the Philippines for financial as well as other reasons.

My personal opinion is that Canada is a little slack in looking after the poor. As for how any other country looks after their poor... I have not the right to judge.

Brian

[CDKPhil]

Originally Posted by Brian W

Just something to consider... societies are always segregated into haves and have nots. No matter how rich or how much of a shining light any society is there will always be those who have less. The question is not how can a society eliminate the poor but rather how can a society elevate the poor to a standard where they too have the basic necessities and maybe even a luxury or two.

Take myself as an example. I am Canadian and when I was about 30 I came down with Multiple Sclerosis. After about 10 years it developed to the point where I was unable to work. I took a disability pension.

My pension is roughly $800.00 per month which equals $9600 a year. The poverty level in Canada is @ $24,000.00 per year. Thankfully my pension follows me so I live in the Philippines for financial as well as other reasons.

My personal opinion is that Canada is a little slack in looking after the poor. As for how any other country looks after their poor... I have not the right to judge.

Brian

Sorry to here that you have MS.
I think the poverty level is a similar dollar value here. (don't quote me).
Old age pensioners here receive about $15,600 per year. Not a lot to live on when Australia is one of the most expensive countries to live in. I myself could not afford to live off $15,600. Rates, car, electricity, phone, internet, insurance, that would chew up about $10,000. That leaves $5600 for food clothes and general living. ( I forgot carbon tax)
Not much left over for astronomy.



phil

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Brian W

Just something to consider... societies are always segregated into haves and have nots. No matter how rich or how much of a shining light any society is there will always be those who have less. ....

According to an article in the SMH recently the rich really are getting richer too. I'm speaking from memory so please excuse any little inaccuracies. The article used data from the US IRS and looked at the income of the very top of US society. One comparison that stuck in my mind was the income of the 400 wealthiest Americans in 1955 vs 2008. The figures were all converted to 2008 dollars. In 1955 the average income of each of the richest 400 was about $55million pa on which they paid about 51% tax. In 2008 the richest 400 averaged about $240million pa on which they paid about 19% tax. Not bad work if you can get it.

PS In case it looks like I'm bashing the yanks, I'm quoting the only figures I have and I expect the situation in Oz would be about the same.

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by CDKPhil

I think we live in the best country in the world.
And there is no way I would live anywhere else.
But there are a lot of people in this country who are doing it quite tough.
who struggle to pay the bills and have enough money to live. Another tax will just add to this.

It makes me said to see governments with no long term plans for the future of this nation, only sort term grabs for cash. Or promises just to get reelected.

Phil

I agree with your first point but if you think that this government is making the decisions about the future of our planet are being made for getting reelected than that is mad as the plan is making them less likely to be elected even though we need to make plans to keep the planet livable. And the only way this tax will make money is if its goal fails the tax is to reduce emissions not to make money.

The way I see it this government is looking to the future long term not the electoral cycle if it were the electoral cycle they would be doing the "POPULAR" thing to get reelected. This tax is not aimed at the battlers it is aimed at the emiters of CO2 and that is why the compensation will be there to ensure it doesn't impact on those least able to afford it.

And just to dispel the thought that I am Labor through and through I voted Green in the last election and will likely never vote Labor again.