Twin Tower Demise

[g__day (Matthew)]

Well my best friend died in the twin towers, most of the company executive was killed and I was two weeks away from joining them at the time, so this is rather poignant for me.

As Peter said Navgas in sufficient quantity would have weakened the trusses that had insufficient fire suppressant insulation (a known problem at the time).

While one can't prove it wasn't a right wing, extremist CIA groups fund raiser to sponsor or incite such a tragedy - such conspiracies never stay hidden or silent - and it up-rooted the American psyche.

Personally I think it ushered in a more worried world, but the stage was set and it was just a matter of time unfortunately.

[dugnsuz (Doug)]

Originally Posted by leon

Boy, look at what I have started, by just flicking through a 35 year old Australian Post. very interesting discussion indeed.

Leon

Maybe I should bring out the very last edition of Australian Post, I have three copies in mint, never opened condition.

Go ahead leon, unless it's the JFK assasination, Marilyn Monroe suicide, Apollo Moon landing issue!!!!!!! Then this thread would never end!!
Doug

[MarkN]

Can someone explain to me:

Why both buildings collapsed without any toppling? Too neat and tidy by half!

Why WTC7 collapsed despite NOT having been hit?

Why a BBC reported WTC7 as having collapsed despite it being intact in the background of where the reporter was?

How Mohammed Atta's passport was recovered from the street having survived a conflagration that was hot enough to cause the steel support structure to lose its integrity?

Why the "crime scene" was dismantled (just like Port Arthur) before any proper examination could be done?

Why there are so many people who, when it suits their prejudices about other people, will believe anything a government says?

Why anyone would believe anything the current US leadership would say or authorize after the last seven years?

Iraq WMD - None found. Conceded by US Govt.
Links to 9/11 - Totally debunked.
Links to Alquada - Totally debunked.

Mark.

[skwinty (Steve)]

Originally Posted by MarkN

Can someone explain to me:

Why both buildings collapsed without any toppling? Too neat and tidy by half!

Why WTC7 collapsed despite NOT having been hit?

Hi Mark
I suggest you read these articles. They were posted by Peter Ward.
I read the articles last night and it exposed Prof Steven Jones as a fraud.
The photographs of building no 7 alone showed he cherry picked certain pictures and videos only to suit his argument.
The detailed drawings and photos of how the towers were constructed as opposed to other buildings will give greater insight as to why the towers and building 7 collapsed.
These articles also suggest that the US government although not responsible for planning and execution, grabbed this opportunity as well other cherry picked intel to convince the world that it was the right action to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...42.html?page=1

And this one is really great!
http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm

Regards
Steve

[dugnsuz (Doug)]

Can someone explain to me:

Why both buildings collapsed without any toppling? Too neat and tidy by half!

Why WTC7 collapsed despite NOT having been hit? Due to its proximity, it had indeed been 'hit' by the tons of debris and material from the collapse of the towers.Firefighters did not enter the building and hence the subsequent fire was allowed to blaze in WTC 7 for hours before the collapse

Why a BBC reported WTC7 as having collapsed despite it being intact in the background of where the reporter was? Bad reporting!?

How Mohammed Atta's passport was recovered from the street having survived a conflagration that was hot enough to cause the steel support structure to lose its integrity? Others were recovered too as I recall.

Why the "crime scene" was dismantled (just like Port Arthur) before any proper examination could be done? No idea, this has obviously fuelled the fires of conspiracy, as has the poor governmental enquiry. they spent more money investigating Bill Clinton's 'BJ' for gawds sake!!!!

Why there are so many people who, when it suits their prejudices about other people, will believe anything a government says?
... Why there are so many people who, when it suits their prejudices about other people, will dis-believe anything a government says?

Why anyone would believe anything the current US leadership would say or authorize after the last seven years? Ya got me!!!!!
Apart from his "..who cares!?" line at the end of this video, old Noam Chomsky states a good case as to how the US and other world regimes have used 9/11 for their benefit...

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...arch&plindex=8

Doug

[leon]

Sorry Doug, the very last edition of Australian Post dosen't have anything of real interest to be debated. only the cover chic is a bit sexier looking

Leon

[skwinty (Steve)]

Hi All
Another question relating to a statement I made in an earlier post regarding the British and Pearl Harbour.
My take on this after reading several books on the issue.
1.The British had installed Marconi telecoms systems in the east prior to the war.
2. Due to this when the war broke out they had the capacity to eavesdrop on communications.
3.The British were the first to break the Japanese Naval code. Obviously they didnt let on.
4.The British had then intercepted the fact that the Japanese fleet was en route to Pearl Harbour.
5.The Americans were reluctant to enter the war other than the lend lease campaign.
6.The British subsequently did not inform the Americans about the Japanese fleet as they knew that once Pearl Harbour was attacked the Americans would immiediately enter the war.

Any thoughts, comments or rebuttals.
Regards
Steve

[dugnsuz (Doug)]

Originally Posted by skwinty

...Any thoughts, comments or rebuttals.
Regards
Steve

Power, absolute or not just seems to corrupt doesn't it?
Doug

[skwinty (Steve)]

Originally Posted by dugnsuz

Power, absolute or not just seems to corrupt doesn't it?
Doug

Absolutely,
Here in South Africa our next presidential hopeful has just recently been aquitted (got off on some technicality)of raping a HIV positive women. Is under investigation for about 18 charges of fraud,corruption and tax evasion. His financial advisor is in jail for 15 years for bribing him. He also believes that a shower after unprotected sex with an HIV positive women will prevent him from contracting aids. He has about 32 kids from 20 different women, has political songs about bring me my machine gun.
If he doesnt get elected and goes to jail there will probably be civil/tribal war.
How much more corrupted power can the average south african of any race put up with. If I wasnt so old id probably be packing for Perth.
Regards
Steve
ps Africa is not for the fainthearted.

[dugnsuz (Doug)]

Originally Posted by skwinty

Absolutely,
Here in South Africa our next presidential hopeful has just recently been aquitted (got off on some technicality)of raping a HIV positive women. Is under investigation for about 18 charges of fraud,corruption and tax evasion. His financial advisor is in jail for 15 years for bribing him. He also believes that a shower after unprotected sex with an HIV positive women will prevent him from contracting aids. He has about 32 kids from 20 different women, has political songs about bring me my machine gun.
If he doesnt get elected and goes to jail there will probably be civil/tribal war.

...Jeez, best man for the job eh!?
Sounds like a step backward Steve. Is this another case of when an evil, iron handed regime like Apartheid (or communism, Saddam etc) is removed from power, all the conflicts it held in check start surfacing again?
Doug

[Tannehill]

And, let's not forget the fact that the most powerful man within the aforementioned suspected conspiracy-laden government can't even enjoy a cigar and quiet moment with a young intern without it leaking out quickly to the world.

Sorry, too many people involved for such a secret to be kept. No dice. We Americans like a nice government-bashing conspiracy scandal as much as Australians, from what I've seen from living there and reading the newspapers.

And thank the stars, the founding fathers, the Queen, Jon Stewart, and everyone else I can think of that we can all make such claims, be heard, and not be carried away in the night by secret police ne'er to be heard from again!

S

[Ingo]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Nothing gets my blood boiling more than the suggestion the twin towers was a con job.

I have worked in the airline industry of close to 30 years now, and spoken directly with US colleagues who had friends & relatives die that day. Been to ground zero in NYC. Seen all the video.

A few tens of thousands litres of burning JP4 and truss construction is all you needed.....plus a woefully inadequate flight deck security policy of the day. But hey don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

IMHO this sort of utter rubbish comes from same loonies who think the earth is flat & the moon shots were a conspiracy. Apparently there were even people on the Titanic who were adamant she could not sink....

9/11 Truth Supporters wish the best for the families that had such a tragic event happen to their loved ones and wish it never did happen. 9/11 Truthers definitely aren't for the death of those people, but trying to get a true answer as to what happened and help those families. It's crazy that some of the families of 9/11 victims are actually 9/11 truth movement members now.

But there are definite holes in 9/11 and things that need to be answered. The fuel in those planes was not hot enough to melt the flame protected steel for one...and the fire was almost completely out before the falling of the towers.

Not to mention building 7...but that sets off some questions right there. How did a building that didn't get hit by a plane...fall down?

The WTC and building 7 are the first skyscrapers to fall from fire...in history. There have been buildings that have burned on 20 stories for days and not fallen.

If the US Government didn't do it, they knew about it and did nothing to stop it.

I have questions about the moon landings, but am not sure which way to go. The earth is definitely not flat

[merlin8r]

But there are definite holes in 9/11 and things that need to be answered. The fuel in those planes was not hot enough to melt the flame protected steel for one...and the fire was almost completely out before the falling of the towers.

Sigh, again with the "not hot enough to melt steel" argument. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, go talk to a structural engineer. The steel was NOT melted. It was heated to the point that it became WEAK.

Building 7? As has been mentioned, debris. Come on, the answers are right there. Don't pick and choose your facts.

Burned for days you say? After a jet airliner plowed into them, weakening the structure? In fact I think you will find the construction of the WTC was quite unique, in that the load bearing structure was around the outside. Would a plane smashing through that have some effect on its structural integrity?

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by merlin8r

In fact I think you will find the construction of the WTC was quite unique, in that the load bearing structure was around the outside. Would a plane smashing through that have some effect on its structural integrity?

The WTC was the first major implementation of this type of design - the "central structure" was not central - the geodetic steel skeleton formed the outer walls of the building - and this is where the strength came from. In order to provide SOME floor space to tennants below the 6oth floor (otherwise nearly engulfed by centralised support structures and lift wells to address the height of the building) the design was extremely clever in this regard. This why they also collapsed vertically - i.e. the buildings fell "into" themselves - the floor below containing the floor above. The exoskeleton kept it all together. It really isn't that hard to understand.

[dugnsuz (Doug)]

Originally Posted by merlin8r

Sigh, again with the "not hot enough to melt steel" argument. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, go talk to a structural engineer. The steel was NOT melted. It was heated to the point that it became WEAK.

Building 7? As has been mentioned, debris. Come on, the answers are right there. Don't pick and choose your facts.

Burned for days you say? After a jet airliner plowed into them, weakening the structure? In fact I think you will find the construction of the WTC was quite unique, in that the load bearing structure was around the outside. Would a plane smashing through that have some effect on its structural integrity?

Originally Posted by Omaroo

Absolutely - which is why they also collapsed vertically - i.e. the buildings fell "into" themselves - the floor below containing the floor above. The exoskeleton kept it all together. It really isn't that hard to understand.

To add to these 2 posts, check out the audio podcast on the menu of the Popular Mechanics 9/11 page...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...42.html?page=1

At around 10 mins into the discussion, the above aspects are talked about.
Very interesting - especially how the unique/light weight construction of WTCs contributed to the method of collapse - no girders in WTCs in order to maximize real estate floor space!!!!!

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by dugnsuz

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...42.html?page=1

Thanks for that Doug. Finally a bit of sensible information and data. "At 1800 degrees steel loses 90% of its structural integrity." Says it all. It didn't need to get to 2700 degrees. Fuel gone in 10 minutes, the rest of the combustible materials and a good healthy wind up there was all that was needed. Poisonous conspiracy theorists will always exist - much the pity. They're not required.

[programmer]

Originally Posted by Omaroo

Poisonous conspiracy theorists will always exist - much the pity. They're not required.

At least not in your philosophy, Horatio

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by programmer

At least not in your philosophy, Horatio

LOL!

There's enough angst in the world - why do people need to dream up more - especially if they have weak arguments? To counter the government view for the sake of it? I though that was what an opposition party was for.

I respect the view of Popular Mechanics far more than that of a government or conspiracy theorist.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[skwinty (Steve)]

Originally Posted by Omaroo

LOL!

There's enough angst in the world - why do people need to dream up more - especially if they have weak arguments? To counter the government view for the sake of it? I though that was what an opposition party was for.

I respect the view of Popular Mechanics far more than that of a government or conspiracy theorist.

Perhaps the source of all the angst in the world comes from morally weak governments and weaker opposition parties.
This initiates all the conspiracy theories due to the inconsistent half truthes generated by these morally weak and ineffective governments.

As far as Popular Mechanics go, I agree with you but with one difference.
They have been wrong before and if you interview a liar you will get lies as answers. But all credit to them in that the publish the fact that they were wrong and apologise.

In my opinion, as I stated earlier the Popular mechanics and Debunking the 911 conspiracy theory as posted by Peter, clearly expose the Steven Jones theory as fraudulent.
Regards
Steve

[dugnsuz (Doug)]

Originally Posted by g__day

Well my best friend died in the twin towers, most of the company executive was killed and I was two weeks away from joining them at the time, so this is rather poignant for me.

g_day - Apologies for the technical, perhaps detached tone of some of my posts within this mini debate. Horrible to lose a friend in any circumstances.
It's the human stories like yours which re-focus the mind on the true horror of that day regardless of who one believes is ultimately responsible.

All the best
Doug