Waste of life and potential

[AndrewJ]

A common catch cry seems to be that the police should target the Mr Bigs not the young couriers,

Not necessarily.
I think the catch cry is that killing the couriers is not the answer.
Based on your logic of the supply chain, maybe we should kill all the people who buy "illicit" drugs locally, and the couriers wouldn't have a market.

Without these mules it would be far more difficult for those at the helm to move the drugs in and out of the country.

If you offer someone who has nothing enough, they will do whatever you ask. History has proven that that will never change .
And again, based on what has been reported, why have those who import drugs to Indonesia got life and those who take it out got death???
The logic in that confuses me.

That said, Alcohol and cigarettes still cause way more harm, but they are socially acceptable ( in that they provide lots of tax to the govt )
I see, based on the latest IBAC case down here, that Italian wine is a good bribe for leeching money from the school system.

I dont condone what the traffickers did, but i do suspect they were also victims of a corrupt regime and a corrupt system.
Nothing will change.

Andrew

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

If you offer someone who has nothing enough, they will do whatever you ask. History has proven that that will never change .

These people were not people with 'nothing'. I can understand a farmer in arid Afghanistan growing opium to feed his family. Criminal, yes, but definitely worthy of a little understanding.

But these guys come from Australia, one of the worlds richest countries. There is no excuse for this. None. The death and misery that they would have inflicted upon those whose lives are horrible enough that heroin looks like a good alternative, does not bear contemplating.

Sukumaran and Chang are no mere 'mules' either. They were the bosses in this, which is why they were executed, whilst the mules they roped into it got jail instead.

It's sad to see executions anywhere, but as long as people like Chang and Sukumaran are happy to inflict misery and death on others in the pursuit of the almighty dollar, they will continue.

[Paul Haese]

Lots ideas and thoughts here.

For the record I am opposed to the death sentence except for crimes against children and arsonists. Even still I abhor the death sentence for deterrent value. It does not work and never has worked as a deterrent.

That said, and having travelled through Asia a lot, ones arrival into Indonesia, it clearly sign posted that the death penalty is applied for drug trafficking. Only idiots think they can do this and get past the guards. Some might get past but the odds are not good.

Yes trafficking is brought on because of prohibition and there are all sorts of arguments for removing prohibition, but that is not likely to happen in a hurry and it will require all sorts of controls and monitoring for addicts etc. So for now we live in the prohibition paradigm.

I find it hard to believe though that murder, child molesting and terrorism in Indonesia fails to regularly attract the death penalty regularly and yet lots of young people are on death row for trafficking drugs. It's an odd thing to enforce and quite frankly the Indonesians should be doing something about the producers of hard core drugs rather than address the middle men. I know from experience that bribing officials is rife in Indonesia. Even travelling from one part of the country to another requires a gratuity in some parts.

An interesting notion I heard today is that the only time Aussies get up in arms about Indonesia having the death penalty is when an Aussie is about to die. In between those times we say very little as a country and don't appear to be committed to the cause. And; I have to say I agree with this sentiment. Many people die in the mean time.

Should they have been spared? Well from all accounts they had been rehabilitated and that is surely the primary reason for incarceration; but they were not incarcerated, they were sentenced to death and held in custody awaiting that sentence. It's a subtle distinction, they were already dead men walking. So in that case it was up to the President to spare them. Should he have spared them? Well from our point of view, it is an absolute. However, the Presidents position is very precarious and politically he could not be seen as being soft and that might have brought on a coup from hardliners had he decided to spare them. It might not have either. It might have started to the beginning of social reform in the their society. We shall never know. Also bear in mind that Corby was released recently and that might have played a part in the Presidents decision.

I feel for the families who must now bear this sorrow and pain. Their pain will last for many years to come. I have no doubt that Barlow and Chambers family are still grieving the loss of them.

I think Australia ought to tread carefully here and not say too much or act too hastily. A lot rides on our relationship with Indonesia and there is more to all this than an outrage of the operation of their laws which some people chose to ignore.

That all aside I think they should have been given clemency because they had truly worked hard on giving something back and perhaps their sentence could have been commuted to a life sentence. A disappointing outcome altogether.

[KenGee (Kenith Gee)]

I read through all of these post, my first response would be that people don't let the ignorance of the facts get in the way of their opinion.

I don't support the death penalty but respect every countries right to make and enforce their own laws.

When you travel to other countries then you should follow their laws, its a simple idea.

These guys were not merely dumb mules they were the organisers. They talked the other seven into breaking the la .

There was no question about whether they were guilty or not.They asked for mercy and didn't get it.

The fact they found Jesus is not uncommon in prison. The fact that the happy clappers started lobbing our pollies and news providers demonstrates just how misguided they are. Perhaps they should be more organised against kiddie fiddling Pastors and priests.

The AFP did the right thing and all of us would want other countries police forces to alert us to law breaking in own country. Or do you want them to make moral judgments?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Ben

These people were not people with 'nothing'.

It was more a metaphor for everyone has a price where they will do stuff for profit if they think there is a good chance they will get away with it.
They were part of a capitalist driven system of supply and demand.
The people who buy the product buy it willingly ( at first ).

as long as people like Chang and Sukumaran are happy to inflict misery and death on others in the pursuit of the almighty dollar, they will continue.

Just look at how many so called "good" people ( who are ridiculously well paid ) are proving to be corrupt in this country.
I can draw a distinction between people who "choose" to use drugs, vs people who are targetted as innocent collateral damage.
Ie should lawyers/financial advisors etc who rip people off to the point where they suicide due to the shame of being destitute be subject to the death penalty???
Its not a simple problem.

Andrew

[Neutronstar (T)]

These two guys committed a crime.
A greater crime was committed upon them.

[Bart]

I'm really over hearing about this and haven't said much about it. Until now and this is all that I will say.

They were in clear knowledge of the risk and punishment. They still went ahead and tried to do something that has the potential to kill people, so to me, they are murderers themselves. When they knew the risks and decided to still do the crime, they forfeited their rights to be treated as human beings and put that right into the hands of their peers. To me, I don't care about all the crap about bribes and rigged court rooms, it comes back to the basic conscious decision to commit a crime that has far reaching impact on any community.

Clearly, I would not want this to happen in my family, but the bleeding hearts and artists need a good kick up the ****. What is a wrong is a wrong.

[Renato1 (Renato)]

I am in full support of capital punishment.

There is not one single case of recidivist behaviour where it has been implemented. Not one single rapist, murderer, child abuser, terrorist or drug runner has ever re-offended.
Regards,
Renato

[sn1987a (Barry)]

I'm with Gandalf on this one.

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

Lots ideas and thoughts here.

For the record I am opposed to the death sentence except for crimes against children and arsonists. .

Why do you put arsonists in the same category as children? What would be a crime against an arsonist, taking away his matches

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

We demand foreigners respect our own laws whenever they visit.

Well, I guess at least we ask them nicely.
I reckon those two being put away was payback for turning back the boats.
TA had to make out he was really upset to balance the books about how upset Wododo was to have several thousand economic refugees travel plans thwarted by the Navy.

[mr bruess]

Going back as far as the Balibo five it seems to me that Indonesia has never been a particularly good neighbour or friend. Once again they've proven themselves immature, spiteful and petulent.

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

That 600 million aid they get should go to Nepal this year
If Oz is worried about the trade, I guess you could pay the 600 million to the farmers and keep the stock of cattle for the locals or sell elsewhere.

[gregbradley]

Some nice posts here expousing the value of life and its to be cherished. I like the way Aussies found this to be horrifying and I did not really expect our politicians to get so upset. I found this very reassuring and a bit surprising. We really do have a good country here.

I think a couple of salient points here.

#1 - Do you really trust a Government with the right to kill its citizens because of crimes? (of course they get it right 100% of the time correct??). Can that then become perverted for political reasons to get rid of an opponent. Some people are very good at framing others and making them look bad.

# 2 - The main legal issue with the death penalty is there is never 100% certainty of guilt. So then in those few cases where they get it wrong then the Government would then become guilty of murder wouldn't it?

#3 - There is a difference in viewpoint between western countries like Australia and eastern/Asian countries. Life is precious here but in some countries with a high population etc life is not considered the same way so you get this difference of viewpoint about the importance of a life. That basically as far as I can see it is what is in play here. The difference in viewpoint about the value of a life.

#4 - The basic assumption here also is that a criminal cannot be reformed therefore its better to give them the death penalty to get rid of them. This is not true. A persons right to their own life is a basic human right and Govts who should be setting a good example should honour that. Otherwise the set the tone for a barbarism and appeal to the lowest common denominator in their society. In a way they are letting criminals set the tone of the justice system. They killed directly or indirectly so its Ok if we kill.

I like the way the Australian Govt got rid of the death penalty some time ago and rose above this and strove to be run at a higher level. Its something we should be thankful for.

Greg.

[doppler (Rick)]

I don't think that it is fair to put drug users / suppliers in the same catagory as rapists, murderers, terrorists etc. these crimes are forced upon inocent people, but drug use is a choice all participants have willingly made for themselves. Alcohol and tobaco kill more people than illegal drugs but that's okay because they are legal to posses and trade in.

[Paul Haese]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

Why do you put arsonists in the same category as children? What would be a crime against an arsonist, taking away his matches

You know very well what I mean Trev; but I get your point. I should have put crimes against children and the crimes of arsonists.

[Paul Haese]

Originally Posted by Renato1

I am in full support of capital punishment.

There is not one single case of recidivist behaviour where it has been implemented. Not one single rapist, murderer, child abuser, terrorist or drug runner has ever re-offended.
Regards,
Renato

It might interest you to know that the last person executed in Australia was in fact innocent of the crime for which he was executed. Ballistics has subsequently shown that a prison guard killed another prison guard by accident and it was believed at the time that Ryan had in fact killed the guard. And; the felony murder rule was not applied in this case either.

Also in the last 10 years at least 5 people have been spared of the death penalty for crimes they did not commit in the US. Who knows how many people in the past have been killed for crimes they did not commit there.

So maybe if you were framed for a crime or happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time that attracted the death penalty you might think otherwise. It does happen.

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

You know very well what I mean Trev; but I get your point. I should have put crimes against children and the crimes of arsonists.

Paul your slip was too delicious to let go of, and I thought this thread needed something lighter.

Plus, I've never been known to be serious.

[Renato1 (Renato)]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

It might interest you to know that the last person executed in Australia was in fact innocent of the crime for which he was executed. Ballistics has subsequently shown that a prison guard killed another prison guard by accident and it was believed at the time that Ryan had in fact killed the guard. And; the felony murder rule was not applied in this case either.

Also in the last 10 years at least 5 people have been spared of the death penalty for crimes they did not commit in the US. Who knows how many people in the past have been killed for crimes they did not commit there.

So maybe if you were framed for a crime or happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time that attracted the death penalty you might think otherwise. It does happen.

Perhaps if you read the paper, you'll see that there are hundreds of examples of people who have raped and abused children dozens of times, and all were certified as reformed by parole boards. And there are quite a few who have killed, been released and killed again.

Today, modern forensic science and CCTV cameras and mobile phones makes us more certain than ever about who committed a crime. I can't get all touchy feely about felons and heinous killers.
Regards,
Renato

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

I grew up in Redfern and Surry Hills. Growing up I saw many of my school mates and other kids from my neighbourhood fall to the needle. I cannot count the number of times I called for ambo's to people who had overdosed. My parents had me do a first aide course as a kid - twice I ended up using these skills to help people in terrible trouble from overdosing. And calling the ambo's to pick up the dead.

I also grew up with these drug dealers. Peddlers of death I call them. Everyone knew who these scumbags were. Crap, I even had a punch up with one of these pricks as a teen. The Sydney Police Centre was ten blocks away from my home, and they were helpless to stop this carnage. I have the utmost respect for the people who wear the uniform. They have nasty job to do sometimes.

Today I still see the way this crap rips families apart and destroys lives. The local junkies keep me on my toes, and wary for my family.

The junkies I pity, and pray for them.

The scum that looks to make money from dealing death, I have nothing for.

A society that has the guts to NOT have the death penalty is a high one. But when I am reminded of the saddness and death that surrounded me growing up, I do sometimes wonder.