pharmaceutical companies and doctors playing God

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by kinetic

We were discussing this at work the other day. As we were all 'tradies'
I guess we were unqualified to ponder such huge concepts as viral
research, but in a nutshell our conversation and logic was this:

Humans have been on the earth for many millions of years.
Over this time frame virii (sp?) and bacteria have also had a chance
to evolve/ mutate.

In that time frame wouldn't a virus mutate a strain to wipe us out
as a species? 100 % mortality?

Why, in just a small comparative window of decades does another
strain of some virus appear that, if not for just that slight missing
factor, be that killer virus?

Steve

Viruses usually don't kill a host unless they cause an overwhelming immune response (or overwhelm the immune system) or do too much damage to the cells they're invading and/or the byproducts of that invasion become dangerous. Viruses (and bacteria as well) reproduce in huge numbers and very quickly, so any mutations in their genes or viral DNA can occur very frequently and be passed on rapidly. Consequently, they can evolve rather more quickly than most living organisms. A virus could evolve that was 100% fatal, but it would be defeating its own purpose of survival and reproduction if it did. Something like that would be more than likely man made. A weapon. A one off agent used to kill a portion of a population, or to kill it completely.

In nature, there have been nasty viruses and bacteria that have caused huge numbers of casualties, e.g. the Black Plague, Spanish Flu, but there's always been some who have been immune to the attacks. That immunity then gets passed onto further generations. But sometimes, that doesn't work as well as it should.

[PeterM]

I too think the articles were rather harmless, thanks for alerting us to them. But the thread title was not in sync with the content. Even after Nesti's explanation which came later. The natural medicine believers use these sort of things as a little more "proof" to the quacked out belief that big drug companies etc are not telling us the truth, that sticking needles into our babies is painful, not necessary and does more harm than good. And a little nonsense soon becomes a lot and if it is not nipped in the bud...

How easy we forget (polio as an example). There is no questioning the overwhelming reason that our kids now enjoy such a high standard of health in this country is because most of the population have already been immunised.
We have got to where we are today at a terrible great cost from those dark ages. This must be defended very, very hard indeed, to the point it will really upset some. Well so be it.

I sort of live the otherside of the coin and you really don't want to be there. My 22 year old son has cerebral palsy, spastic quadraplegia, severley disabled, courtesy of a piddly little virus called Cytomegalovirus (CMV) contracted in the first trimester of pregnancy. No vaccine available then or yet, but has been worked on for years and one day it too will be defeated, not by natural medicines but through ongoing research. If it had been something preventable through vaccination, that through my ignorance I had not given our son, who knows how I would be right now.

PeterM.

[GrahamL]

This thread started as a sniffle before turning into pneumonia.

Well said Peter a most level headed reply

[marki]

I too support human intervention over the pot luck of evolution (all ok if you are one of the lucky ones not so good otherwise). The sheer variance in the genetic makeup of humans means we do not always get it right and there is always a risk that some small part of the viral DNA/RNA used in the vaccine to prepare the immune system to respond to attack will also trigger a negative response in some people. What I find most interesting in all this is the fact that this has occurred in a relatively isolated area and may very well suggest a problem in the production of the vaccine but I am sure that will now be tested with great care.

Mark

[Lee]

Nesti, your statements sound like the banter of sandwich making tuckshop-ladies!

Go and study a university level course in immunology/infectious diseases/medicine and try again.

Originally Posted by Nesti

It's because our immune system is - perhaps was - very capable of looking after itself; by design. Yes, we would, can and in fact do have human losses, but it is the species which evolves, not the individual.

There is this rediculous notion in the modern medical world that the human body requires help. In accuality, the human body is very well balanced within the environment...both evolve in sympathy with the other, all plants and animals do this. Disease and viruses are not just the problem, they are also the 'Fitness Landscape' to which the immune system can combat, overcome and evolve from.

A species, any species, cannot evolve in harmony with the environment when there are other man-made factors influencing the cycle. You could argue that we are in fact making ourselves sicker not healthier.

[h0ughy (David)]

Guys - no more personal attacks, Nesti - Bert you are on the detention list, i have a bacteria infected big stick and a germy naughty chair. As for the others - go outside and pick up 20 papers.

[Kevnool (Kev)]

Just another day at the office.

[Nesti (Mark)]

Originally Posted by Lee

Nesti, your statements sound like the banter of sandwich making tuckshop-ladies!

Go and study a university level course in immunology/infectious diseases/medicine and try again.

Gee Lee, thanks for the heads-up.

My mind is with my Spanish wife, not with a group of "tuckshop-ladies". It's very admirable for you to openly share your thoughts however, such a fetish might be best expressed on some other forum perhaps.

Why would I "Go and study a university level course in immunology/infectious diseases/medicine", when that very discipline - even more-so Oncology - come to study with us?

In actuality, we've got to the point that we are now forced to put all of our courses online which also caters for international students. That and the RTO processes cost a fortune...but it's a sign of the times that the general public is seeking other alternatives to modern medicine.

I've seen your type again and again; sitting down the back with your arms crossed, guarded that you might actually learn something new, something that you could never have been taught earlier, something that might shake-up the information and opinion that you've already formed. Fast forward a year or two, and that same type of person is scribbling notes frantically, writing down everything because they finally see how so many pieces fit together.

I've got a better idea for you Lee, why don't you come and study with us and see just how much you don't know about the human species?

Then you are free to make any judgment you like.

With all these people reading this forum, I challenge you to do that!!!

[h0ughy (David)]

thread dosed