Speed doesn't kill - Page 2

Waxing_Gibbous (Peter) · #21 08-03-2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I'm sure everyone who has ever lost control of their speeding car and hit a tree thought they were a much too-good of a driver for that to happen. Even Peter Brock.

Touche (accute accent)!
I lurrrve driving fast. I'm an excellent driver and have no accidents, points or wildlife on my DP.
But I spent a lot of time and money to get this way.
Took advanced driving courses. High-speed handling courses and gained FIA Formula Three, SCCA and BTCA licences.
All up it must've cost me 100K, and I'm not about to chuck that away trying to shave 30 seconds off my commute.

Those who have pointed out that cabbages can get a license in Australia are correct. It has the slackest training and the easiest test of any country that actually requires you to have a license. And when, in Heaven's name are you people (you KNOW you are!) going to start using indicators!? Italy is the only other country where people ignore them, but they gesticulate wildly to telegraph there intentions, so its OK.

Really the rest of the world should be up to Finnish standards. What I spent loads of $$$ learning for sport are basic requirements for passing the driver's test in Finland!
Perhaps we should hire a Hakkinen as Minister of Transport.

Waxing_Gibbous (Peter) · #22 08-03-2010, 05:21 PM

And another thing.......
Anyone who wants to drive a car should have to spend at least a month on a motorbike or scooter first.
Nothing in the world will teach you how dangerous a car can be, and make you quite as aware of other vehicles, as riding around on a motorbike.

Octane (Humayun) · #23 08-03-2010, 05:22 PM

Peter, Alt+0233 (numlocked keypad) will give you the accent you're looking for.

H

Peter Ward · #24 08-03-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I'm sure everyone who has ever lost control of their speeding car and hit a tree thought they were a much too-good of a driver for that to happen. Even Peter Brock.

As usual the point has been ignored or missed. The german experience is without question, speed does not kill.

The point being: driving like a maniac and driving at speed are not the same thing.

Yet in Oz we are brainwashed to believe they are.

Millions of Germans barrel down autobahns every day with impeccible safety. Asking why might be a good start.

sheeny (Al) · #25 08-03-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waxing_Gibbous

And another thing.......
Anyone who wants to drive a car should have to spend at least a month on a motorbike or scooter first.
Nothing in the world will teach you how dangerous a car can be, and make you quite as aware of other vehicles, as riding around on a motorbike.

I agree.

However, FWIW I was involved in some research many years ago which surveyed motorcyclist accident histories. It seemed at the time (pre Stay Upright courses) that motorcyclists needed to gain about 12 years of regular road riding before their accident stats dropped, regardless of previous off road experience. So that was a 12 year apprenticeship to basically learn your "street smarts"... where to ride, what to watch for, how to scan, how to recognise when you haven't been seen, and how to make yourself seen, how to ride for all the idiots on the road, etc. Fortunately, I made it.

(I'm not saying that I have no risk on the road BTW).

Another developmental aid I'd like to see is all young drivers spend time volunteering with a road rescue crew. Being involved in rescue did wonders to slow me down, and make me more aware of the hazards and what silly little things can lead to disaster. I am a far better driver for it.

And on the subject of hoons on the road... well, don't get me started... it's is symptomatic of our over-regulated society!

We all need adventure, and probably the young need it more than us old f... oldies

. But we lock up our national parks, and discourage adventure sports, and make it increasingly difficult for the youth of today to have some fun, adventure and to test themselves. So what do they do? Turn to drugs, and alcohol and the "easy" adrenalin of street racing to name just a few.

I'll stop there. I don't want to hijack the thread entirely.

Al.

sheeny (Al) · #26 08-03-2010, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

As usual the point has been ignored or missed. The german experience is without question, speed does not kill.

The point being: driving like a maniac and driving at speed are not the same thing.

Yet in Oz we are brainwashed to believe they are.

Millions of Germans barrel down autobahns every day with impeccible safety. Asking why might be a good start.

I agree entirely.

Al.

mithrandir (Andrew) · #27 08-03-2010, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

It's cheaper to fly in any case. And a lot faster than even the most uber-Deutsch-autobahn.....

Before 9/11 that might have been true.

Between the cross town traffic and the dead time at the airports at both ends it is now faster to drive from northwest Sydney to Canberra than it is to fly.

Even with the nanny state limits on the divided road that runs for about 99% of the distance.

Hagar (Doug) · #28 08-03-2010, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Planet Oz is around 4,000km wide...it takes a good deal of time to traverse this land at speeds more suitable for model-T Fords.

We really need to come out of the automotive dark ages, and recognise the fact that, on the right road, many vehicles are very safe at autobahn speeds. Crawling in the right lane does bugger up traffic flow and
forcing cars into same speed clusters needlessly increases traffic density and the risk of an accident.

You pretty much encapsulate it all Peter. The big problem is we have no Autobahn quality roads in Australia.

Octane (Humayun) · #29 08-03-2010, 07:11 PM

lol. I attest to this, and, have been for the last four years.

It takes 3+ hours in total travel time for a 20-25 minute flight!

H

Quote:

Originally Posted by mithrandir

Between the cross town traffic and the dead time at the airports at both ends it is now faster to drive from northwest Sydney to Canberra than it is to fly.

Peter Ward · #30 08-03-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagar

..... problem is we have no Autobahn quality roads in Australia.

Beg to differ.

I've driven quite a few times on Autobahns, at speeds according to our various RTA's should have caused instant death (gosh...it didn't happen

)....but I digress.

To be sure in Oz, while there are not many roads that are similar, there are still some excellent dual carriage way stretches on our wide brown land (notably to Canberra

.....yet we chug along at 100 or maybe 110km/hr.

mill (Martin) · #31 08-03-2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waxing_Gibbous

And another thing.......
Anyone who wants to drive a car should have to spend at least a month on a motorbike or scooter first.
Nothing in the world will teach you how dangerous a car can be, and make you quite as aware of other vehicles, as riding around on a motorbike.

Yep right tell that to the bike drivers who overtake my van on the left side when i have just overtaken someone on the right and indicate to go to the left on the freeway and then have to swing back because the bike driver is all of a sudden left next to me.
Or bike drivers who drive in between traffic that does 80 or 100Km/h.
I had one hit my mirror because he was too close to me.

telemarker (Keith) · #32 08-03-2010, 07:54 PM

How fast can the germans drive off the autobahns? Where do most of the deaths occur? Broad sweeping statements somewhat hide the truth in many instances. One effect of limiting speed is reducing impact trauma in crashes, a good thing itself. If you view speeding fines as a tax, it is one tax that is easily and legally avoided.

Peter Ward · #33 08-03-2010, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telemarker

How fast can the germans drive off the autobahns? Where do most of the deaths occur? Broad sweeping statements somewhat hide the truth in many instances.

Autobahns carry around 40% of all German road traffic. Speeds vary from unlimited to a dynamic (signposted) limit, that depends on conditions.

Despite carrying 40% of the traffic, they account for 3% of fatalities.

In short, it's not how fast you drive, its simply how you drive.

Jeffkop (Jeff) · #34 08-03-2010, 08:03 PM

There are points mentioned in this debate that I agree with and disagree with and debates on topics such as this will always have divided opinion thats for sure.

My 5 cents worth (thats 2 cents with rounding) is.

I agree with Peter that his original point has often been overlooked. Sadly that is often the case in discussions about very topical stuff.

Its my opinion, and has been for a long time, that many of the lines we are asked to toe in our over governed society are because its financially better for the government. They jump on ANYTHING that there is no real evidence or fact to support the hype, but because of popular opinion and anecdotal type evidence they see this as an opportunity be seen to be doing something worthy and the bonus is that the real motivation (financial) is smoke screened by catch words like safety, future and the latest, environmental .. AKA carbon trading scheme.

Our rules are made not for the majority, but mostly for the minority. If an individual is too stupid, unreasonable, selfish and a host of other qualities for his/her own good we decide to make a rule that everyone has to adhere to just to keep these people safe. This goes against all the natural ways of attrition that are found in the rest of nature and its not because the governments care for these people, they just see it as another way to keep themselves in a job as well as have a snip.

Specifically, with my point in mind, and pertaining to the topic of the thread, speeding was just another hot topic that fell beautifully into the cash category. They were even brain washing the population with sayings like "Every K over is a killer" ... sending ill informed people out onto the highway with the notion that if they stayed under the speed limit they were at no risk, and that anyone not adhering to this idea was nothing short of a mobile heinous human and that the paramount reason that would ensure you arrived safely at the other end of the journey was your speed. Forget about situational awareness, reading the play, car handling skills, intelligent decision making ... ALL of which are the majority of reasons people come to grief.

In the same manner that gun laws haven't impacted on the amount of people who have met untimely ends neither have speeding fines and speed cameras (and it appears the Germans have fact to support this), its all about milking the cow.

Anyway, thats my input, I know that many wont agree but thats fine.

telemarker (Keith) · #35 08-03-2010, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Autobahns carry around 40% of all German road traffic. Speeds vary from unlimited to a dynamic (signposted) limit, that depends on conditions.

Despite carrying 40% of the traffic, they account for 3% of fatalities.

In short, it's not how fast you drive, its simply how you drive.

And a very different environment from city driving where speeding is a greater problem.

Peter Ward · #36 08-03-2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telemarker

And a very different environment from city driving where speeding is a greater problem.

No argument there.

It's *how* you drive. Speed needs to be appropriate.

Hence the good German Doctor's comments. High density areas with lots of unseen hazards would suggest "slow down"

...good road, minimal traffic, excellent vis, why induce driver fatigue and traffic clusters by a mind numbing 100km/hr ??

Bassnut (Fred) · #37 08-03-2010, 08:33 PM

Oh please, its like guns dont kill. Its easy, no guns, no kill (by guns), no speeding, no kill (by speeding).

sheeny (Al) · #38 08-03-2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mill

Yep right tell that to the bike drivers who overtake my van on the left side when i have just overtaken someone on the right and indicate to go to the left on the freeway and then have to swing back because the bike driver is all of a sudden left next to me.
Or bike drivers who drive in between traffic that does 80 or 100Km/h.
I had one hit my mirror because he was too close to me.

Why bother? As a motorcyclist, I agree there are idiots on two wheels as well as four. Motorcycling in some ways is closer to nature than driving a car... you have less protection and generally you will feel the consequences of bad decisions and mistakes far more than a car driver. Natural selection is a proven successful process... why mess with it?

Al.

sheeny (Al) · #39 08-03-2010, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassnut

Oh please, its like guns dont kill. Its easy, no guns, no kill (by guns), no speeding, no kill (by speeding).

Nice one Fred! Big wooden spoon...

Al.

astroron (Ron) · #40 08-03-2010, 08:50 PM

I am with Peter on this one, Having driven on the Autobans for over three years when I was a bit younger

I didn't have any trouble driving along at 110 kms and others driving at 160 kms you just stay in the lane that suits your speed.
I heard a conversation on Tony Delroy's nightlife between Will Hagen a motoring Writer and Broadcaster and a Traffic Police Inspector from WA.
He mentioned what he and a lot of others think is a ridiculous Speed limit on the Eyre Highway Across the Nullarbor and Other long distance roads with very little traffic.
The Policeman used the same argument being put forward by some on this thread.
Having just done that trip I can whole heartedly agree with him it's utter nonsense.
Most Speed limits on major long distance are just a revenue raiser.

Who decided that 35kms (60mph) is the safe limit and one kilometer over makes you a "killer on the road"