Who made indicating optional????

[acropolite (Phil)]

Young women with P plates are the worst, most dangerous drivers on the NSW roads

Ditto in Tasmania, young girls are outright dangerous. I drive a lot of miles and all the close calls I've had have been caused by young ladies driving stupidly, carelessly or agressively.

[Glenhuon (Bill)]

I don't think they do get the same treatment as male at the hands of the law Chris. Someone has taken the blindfold off Justice, a pretty face and some tears of remorse should make no difference, equality should be across the board. Ya do the crime, ya do the time, black, white, brindle, male or female.
( No, I'm not a misogenist, I rather like the ladies )

Bill

[programmer]

Originally Posted by Outbackmanyep

why is it...if you're going straight through a single lane roundabout do you have to indicate if you're NOT turning???? What a dumb rule......it causes confusion AND frustration and many near misses!

With respect, you've ignored an important part of the rule. From the RTA web site:

6. You must indicate a left turn just before you exit unless it is not practical to do so.

Note the last phrase.
I must admit, I was never taught to do this and even after several years of driving I'd never done it. When I was 'learning to teach' my instructor said it was courteous and eventually I agreed. But I only do it when it's 'safe'.

Did you know that if you're on a roundabout you don't have to give way to the right,

If you're already on the roundabout, you *can't* give way to the right as you're already past that point. It's just not possible.

if you are the one on the roundabout everybody else must give way to you!!!

Correct, and I'd hope every licensed driver knows this! One exception is for a trams e.g. in Melbourne

As for accidents i think they should adopt a rule like Boating where you have to avoid a collision even if you're in the right of way!!!!

That pretty much is the case. There's a common misconception about right-of-way: there is no 'right of way'. Find it somewhere in the road rules if you can. The rules talk about 'giving way', but not 'right of way'.

Safe driving

[programmer]

Originally Posted by Nightshift

Oh yeah, this is my favourite, EVERY idiot with a piece of garbage Suburu does this,

Ok, I have to stick up for us Subaru drivers here.. So does your post relate to 'good' Subarus or just garbage ones?

I have spoken to the RTA and gues what? It's illegal, you can only have 2 white lights on with on-coming traffic, anything else is considered high beam,

Can you find the rule that says this? Are you talking about daytime or night time? I don't think it's illegal. The only mention I can find is for REAR fog lights. Search for 'fog' in this document: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregul...nloads/p13.pdf
I drive with my 'driving lights' on, which I don't believe are fog lights as they aren't yellow, whenever I'm driving. They are in no danger of blinding anyone, day or night.

[taminga16 (Greg)]

David,
As a motorcyclist I find 'driving lights' fitted to following vehicles difficult to deal with. Extra Light is reflected from fixed mirrors into and around the inside of the helmet creating distracting glare and shadows, shifting ones head position can be quite dangerous because it changes perspective of the road enviroment.

Regarding the following,

I drive with my 'driving lights' on, which I don't believe are fog lights as they aren't yellow, whenever I'm driving. They are in no danger of blinding anyone, day or night.[/QUOTE]

Check your responsibilities as a driver,

"Only the powerful and the stupid alter the facts to fit their thinking"

Regards,

Greg.

[OneOfOne (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by acropolite

Ditto in Tasmania, young girls are outright dangerous. I drive a lot of miles and all the close calls I've had have been caused by young ladies driving stupidly, carelessly or agressively.

My personal observation is that young female drivers are more likely to have a "low speed" accident causing mainly property damage. Their male counterparts are more likely to have "high speed" accidents and cause severe personal damage to others and themselves. If you see on the news a car wrapped around a tree, you can be pretty sure it will be a male driver, on P plates, under the age of 25. The tree is usually the only one for miles too.

[Glenhuon (Bill)]

I was discussing this with my lady earlier today and we both have the same opinion re young male and female drivers. When I rode M/cycles in the UK 15 year olds could get a licence for a "super moped" ie, 50cc and could do 50mph with a following wind. Then the statistics showed that too many 15 y,olds were dieing, so they raised the age to 16. Guess what, the number of 16 YO accident victims went up. It isn't youth that kills ya, its inexperience.

Bill

[Mick (Michael)]

Originally Posted by Glenhuon

It isn't youth that kills ya, its inexperience.

Bill

Spot on Bill.

[Louwai (Bryan)]

Originally Posted by Glenhuon

It isn't youth that kills ya, its inexperience.

Bill

I'm surprised that some older / middle aged people can't see the sense in the current motorcycle size restrictions.
2 ladies in the office at work, both in their late 40's couldn't understand why the young ones arn't allowed to ride whatever size bike they want.
After a discussion with them it was obviuos that they had absolutely no idea about the power of large bikes & the speeds attainable in very short distances.
They were comparing bikes to the only thing they knew, their small or family car.
Both of these ladies had seen my bike in the carpark.
When I explained that my bike had 6 gears & 140klm/hr was easily reached in 1st gear, 195klm/hr in 2nd gear, these 2 ladies started to realise why the restrictions were in place.
They started to think about the chest puffing, top speed proving, etc of young people. After about a 30min discussion they realised the reasons why.

[AJames]

When I first read this post it reminded me of the story of women who get pulled over by the police. It seemed the best form of "indicating" especially by some brazen woman drivers, was to hitch up the skirt a little by showing a little leg and/or by pulling down their dress fronts a little just to show additional cleavage - thus avoid getting a ticket. Although such ideas might be construed as particularly sexist (they are sexist), the argument was that as in advertising has known all along, sex sells.
The counter-argument to this was that it explained why, particularly young women, were get much less tickets for traffic offences for males of equivalent age. This was assumed as an attempt to reject the atypical notion that women are safer drivers than men.
As to not indicating in traffic lanes or while cornering, isn't this these days just another reflection of selfish egocentric behaviour of our general Society.

"She'll be right mate";

seems now as ;

"She'll be right mate, but it of course wasn't MY fault!"

With the rise of car jacking, road rage etc., it probably shouldn't be surprising that courtesy for others is on the decline. The issue here is more to do with the lack respect for others safety and one another.

Andrew

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by AJames

The issue here is more to do with the lack respect for others safety and one another.

Andrew

Andrew - I think you are right - and I'll go one further. I don't think it's a lack of respect, as such, but possibly a show of disrespect just for the hell of it.

It's a real pity that 30 year olds nowadays don't remember what driving was like 30 years ago. People were very different on the roads - it was FUN to drive because nearly everyone actually got along. It really wasn't that long ago, so what happened?

[Glenhuon (Bill)]

Its the "Me" society Chris. Ever watched the Ad that says "For the most important person in the world, Me". Just about sums up what our kids are taught everywhere they look and listen nowadays. I was brought up to believe that other people (especially my elders) deserved my respect, unless they proved otherwise by their actions. Unfortunately for a significant minority this no longer holds true.

Bill

[RB (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by Omaroo

It's a real pity that 30 year olds nowadays don't remember what driving was like 30 years ago. People were very different on the roads - it was FUN to drive because nearly everyone actually got along. It really wasn't that long ago, so what happened?

A lot of people nowadays learn how to drive on a Playstation/XBox Chris, that's what's happened.
There's no indicators on them, no speed limits, no consequences, just a reset button.

But it goes deeper than just driving skills, we've lost a lot of skills, social and otherwise.

[OneOfOne (Trevor)]

I was talking to a friend who is a driving instructor and I think he summed up one possible reason for younger drivers seemingly being "worse" and having accidents. Back in the days when I got my license, 70's, you had maybe 4 to 6 months experience driving when you got your license. For the first few months you drive with some extra care until you get a bit more experience then you drive off "half cocked". Nowadays, you have 2 years experience (often with parents who can't drive anyway) and then get your license. So you get your license and you are already "half cocked".

My wife's daughter got her license late last year. The day after, she got in the car, picked up a couple of friends, drove into the city and went to a lecture about uni courses. I didn't drive into the city until I had been driving for a couple of months! Some of this is because she had more experience, some of it is naivity. I was driving 3 weeks before my first accident (5kph and $100), she took about 6 weeks (50kph and $2000, but I should point out she WAS in the right and it "wasn't her fault"). Many of her friends have also had accidents in the first few months.

The young drivers have more experience with someone watching out and then instantly get in a car on their own and don't realise how "different" it is! Turn the radio up, pick up a group of friends, show of their abilities, changing stations or CDs...and she wonders why we won't let her borrow the GPS!

[Nightshift]

Originally Posted by programmer

Ok, I have to stick up for us Subaru drivers here.. So does your post relate to 'good' Subarus or just garbage ones?

Can you find the rule that says this? Are you talking about daytime or night time? I don't think it's illegal. The only mention I can find is for REAR fog lights. Search for 'fog' in this document: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregul...nloads/p13.pdf
I drive with my 'driving lights' on, which I don't believe are fog lights as they aren't yellow, whenever I'm driving. They are in no danger of blinding anyone, day or night.

Hi Programmer,

you are wrong and somewhat arrogant in your reply, yellow or white is irrelevant, white is worse than yellow and the glare from them is a problem no matter what, ESPECIALLY suburu ones that are generally larger than other cars, and yes, in my opinion, all suburus are garbage but I wont go in to that here. It is interesting to note that you live in Melbourne but your research shows a NSW RTA reference? In any case, let me quote the QLD Transport site which calls these lights, "Auxillary lights", quote -

Fog lamps are intended to improve the illumination of the road in

conditions of fog, snowfall, rainstorms or dust clouds. unquote. To read the whole document search VSI_G_1.0_Auxiliary_Driving_Lamps_F itted_to_Motor_Vehicles.pdf on the QT web site, it is quite clear that this is illegal. By the way, many cars that have these auxillary lights fitted also double their tail light brightness while they are turned on, this blinds the people travelling behind them as well as in front. If you were a half decent bloke you would consider other drivers on the road and turn them off in traffic, only small minded people with the "look at me, arent I importnat attitude" drives with these lights on around others.

Dennis.

[ving (David)]

ah! what a world we have created... my daughter has become old enough to get her licience (i am scared!). hopefully she will hold off a bit till she is a bit more mature
cheryl hasnt had her licence for long but her attitude is of course a hell of alot different to kid when they get thiers... its an age thing

[rat156]

Hi All,

Firstly have to agree on the indicator thing, half of the drivers nowadays don't use them.

Have to agree with the bloody driving/fog lights things too. My car has both fitted, I use them in heavy fog so people can see the car. I sometimes drive back from Macedon to Melbourne late at night, you need something on the Calder highway there, it's like pea soup sometimes. Other than that, they are off.

A couple of points about the driving standards of young drivers. All in all, they're probably not a lot different now than years ago, sometimes they're better. But the combination of speed, alcohol and inexperience is a recipe for disaster, when you throw in large immovable objects on the side of the road it means death. Take for instance the recent deaths of four young guys on the Westgate freeway recently. They were in a lateish model Commodore, traveling way too fast, and the driver lost control. They hit a large Cypress tree not more than 10m off the side of the road, the car burst into flames and they were either killed on impact or incinerated. Tragic is the only word I can think of here. But what really annoys me is the trees. Why are they there? I drive at speeds approaching 200kmh in a 35 year old race car, I have had "moments" in the car at high speed, I've never been hurt. Why is this so? Because on the side of a racetrack there is stuff to slow you down, and when you hit something, it's usually designed to absorb the impact, or it's big and flat and distributes the imapct energy over a wide area. Next time you look at the news and someone has died in a single vehicle crash, have a look at what they've hit. Lightpole, tree, roadsign stanchion etc, they all have the same profile.

So in order to reduce the roadtoll, we need to either slow everyone down to about 40kmh, that's about the only speed you can hit one of these things side on and hope to not be injured. That proposition is obviously stupid, so we need to do the next best thing, on roads where the speed limit is higher than 40kmh (also proposing that all residential side streets be reduced to 40kmh BTW), remove or render safe all trees, lightpoles etc. A little bit of Armco goes a long way. With the amount of cash our state govt receives from speed and red light cameras this should be possible for all major roads in Vic. The rural roads would take much longer, but it is possible if you stick to the A and B roads.

Rant off.

Ooh that feels better!

Cheers
Stuart

[desler]

Hey all,

And to think Astronomy was supposed to get me away from all this!

Now, the dsiclaimer, I live in Victoria and as such abide by different road laws than some of you. My understanding of the law as it realtes to traffic use and safety, is a working understanding, I'm not an academic or social observer. I'm simply a bloke who gets out and about for about 10 hours per day in every sought of traffic you could imagine.

First, Driving lights, are the illegal = not in Victoria. All it states in the vehicle standards is that they must be clear as opposed to yellow fog lamps, in pairs and on a equal height, The actual standard uses another term but I can't think of it.

Do they annoy other drivers / road users, I say yes! but spending all day riding a solo, you'd expect that! Does the headlamp from my R12oo RT annoy tin top drivers = I bet.

As for attitudes, I agree with a lot of the comments, particulary oneofone, young female P plate drivers are more common to have, low impact, nose to tail, merging and failing to give way type collisions that we all find so annoying.

Younger males are going to hit you or an object very hard, for some reason they almost always kill themdelves but do untold horrors to their passengers, "NEVER BE BACK SEAT PASSENGER IN ANY VEHILCE".

In a sliding car, drivers will always attempt to get themselves away from the impact point, usually unconsciously, but they do a pretty good job of it in my experience!

I'm not sure about the other states, but have a look at the relevant road toll stats for 2007, they say numbers and stats can lie, try scewing these to show 18 -25 year olds in a better light!!!!

As for the rest of it, we can't chnage the kids of today. That's more of a societal problem. Keep your car in good nick! tyres, windscreen, brakes siganls and lights and practice those driving skills every know and then, no not going down the shops, go and have a play somewhere deserted and quiet, where you won't be embarrsed when you mess up.

And remember, it isn't the speed that kills usually, it's normally the sudden stop!

[desler]

Hey all,

And to think Astronomy was supposed to get me away from all this!

Now, the dsiclaimer, I live in Victoria and as such abide by different road laws than some of you. My understanding of the law as it realtes to traffic use and safety, is a working understanding, I'm not an academic or social observer. I'm simply a bloke who gets out and about for about 10 hours per day in every sought of traffic you could imagine.

First, Driving lights, are the illegal = not in Victoria. All it states in the vehicle standards is that they must be clear as opposed to yellow fog lamps, in pairs and on a equal height, The actual standard uses another term but I can't think of it.

Do they annoy other drivers / road users, I say yes! but spending all day riding a solo, you'd expect that! Does the headlamp from my R12oo RT annoy tin top drivers = I bet.

As for attitudes, I agree with a lot of the comments, particulary oneofone, young female P plate drivers are more common to have, low impact, nose to tail, merging and failing to give way type collisions that we all find so annoying.

Younger males are going to hit you or an object very hard, for some reason they almost always kill themdelves but do untold horrors to their passengers, "NEVER BE BACK SEAT PASSENGER IN ANY VEHILCE".

In a sliding car, drivers will always attempt to get themselves away from the impact point, usually unconsciously, but they do a pretty good job of it in my experience!

I'm not sure about the other states, but have a look at the relevant road toll stats for 2007, they say numbers and stats can lie, try scewing these to show 18 -25 year olds in a better light!!!!

As for the rest of it, we can't chnage the kids of today. That's more of a societal problem. Keep your car in good nick! tyres, windscreen, brakes siganls and lights and practice those driving skills every know and then, no not going down the shops, go and have a play somewhere deserted and quiet, where you won't be embarrsed when you mess up.

And remember, it isn't the speed that kills usually, it's normally the sudden stop!

[programmer]

Originally Posted by Nightshift

you are wrong and somewhat arrogant in your reply

Hi Dennis

I was writing a long-winded reply, but I thought it better to keep things brief. [edit: ok, not that brief!]

First of all, I hope we're all friends here at IIS I didn't intend to be arrogant. Sorry if it came across that way.

Your phrase "EVERY idiot with a piece of garbage Suburu" would be considered arrogant by some, and did raise my ire.

But, hope we can still be friends.

With that out of the way..

If my lights are indeed fog lights, I'll stop using them. I'm a half decent guy. I'll use my parkers, although they are even dimmer than my already dim fog/driving/daytime running lights. I want to use them as I believe it aids visibility of my vehicle, not to say "look at me aren't I great".

QLD appears to be different to NSW and VIC on the subject of fog lights. Front fog lights are not illegal in NSW or VIC in non-foggy conditions from what I read in the road rules. The RACV even says "There is no reason to use front fog lights during normal weather conditions, although this is not illegal."

However, as I've said, I'll stop using them.

On the other topic, IMO there have been too many generalisations made (young drivers, female drivers, etc). I used to teach driving and I only ever had arrogance issues with male learners. There are other factors too, such as many more cars on the road than in the 70's (for e.g), beginners having more powerful cars than back then (despite restrictions) and so on. And yes, general attitudes in society.

I'd lastly like to say that I often hear discussions about 'bad drivers' but it's funny that you only find 'model' drivers at those discussions. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm sure I could pick up half a dozen errors or bad practices within a few minutes driving with most of the drivers involved in those discussions (including car control/skill issues, not just road rules). Having said that, I admit I'm not perfect.

Safe driving.