Shocking Massacre in States

[huckabuck]

hello, i am an american. i own 43 guns. i have never pulled one on a human. there are nut-cases everywhere. this guy was gonna kill innocenent people even if he had to use a butcher knife. i have no problem with the opions expressed here from "the left side" because over here, guns are the reason we can say what we want - when we want. they freed us from a tyrannical government. we are still over taxed but at least now it's our own fault.

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." --Adolf Hitler, 1935

[matt]

Hi Huckabuck.

I'm not sure whether that Hitler quote supports your case or makes a mockery of it? Maybe I'm missing something, but I certainly appreciate the irony in that quote.

Yes. Guns 'freed' the USA from a tyrannical govt... a few hundred years ago. Would you say the same situation applies today? Would that make the Constitution's section about your "right" to bare arms something of an anachronism, tied to another age - the socio/political landscape of the time?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not pro or anti gun. I just think they make it too easy to kill too many people in too few seconds for someone with a will to use them for that purpose.

[Mr. Subatomic]

thats...a lot of guns.

[ving (David)]

i have to admit tho that i am attracted to the idea of owning and using a rifle of some sort. but theres a time and a place for everything.

[huckabuck]

yep....it is alot of guns. looking back i really can't remember the reasoning behind the purchase of most of them. i guess i just got "caught up" in the whole deal of owning guns. oh, well, i'm over it now. now i go for eyepieces. i have 19. can't remember the reasoning behind that either.

and yes the whole idea behind the right to bear arms is, to some extent, antiquated. i was raised in the south and not only are you taught from birth that they insure your freedom, but also, after our civil war(another tyrannical gov't.{not really, thats just the way most southerners saw it in the 50's,60's and 70's}) guns were a necessity for survival in many cases. without them many would have starved. all went hungry. i guess it's more of a programed response than an actual fear of the gov't that causes such a stir over here on that issue. anyway, live and let live. and even though this whole episode was incredibly sad, unnecessary,revolting,and many other adverbs....it is a fact of life that innocent people will be killed be madmen. not that i am condoning such action or making excuses for our laws but if someone has it in their head to go down in history then usually they will find a way.

[iceman (Mike)]

Let's keep the topic to the sad death of 32 innocent people and give our thoughts to their families, and stay away from topics like gun control and US politics. There are better places to discuss that than an astronomy forum.

[huckabuck]

you are absolutely right mike. sometimes i get carried away. sorry

[fringe_dweller]

I was under the impression that the US attitude to private gun ownership underlying reasoning was one of - who would dare invade a country whose citizens are armed to the teeth with firearms?
and btw paying taxes isnt a form of communism its called society! LOL
which is the impression I get from such trojan horses of cultural imperialism as pay tv ie fox news in particular (ironically owned by a sort of aussie), i'll never forget bill o'reilly with frothy venomous spittle coming off his chin saying something about 'why should my taxes (money) pay for your sick (and dying?) child - in a rant on that vile form of communism - medicare. scary stuff to an aussie lol sometimes we are closer to the english (mother country after all) than a new world/wild west/frontier frame of mind)
please dont take this as anti-US, it isnt, and i'm not, there is very much more to admire and love about the US of course - just an observation on one single aspect of an, obviously, very complex and ultra successful society/country/superpower

[nightsky]

Originally Posted by iceman

Let's keep the topic to the sad death of 32 innocent people and give our thoughts to their families, and stay away from topics like gun control and US politics. There are better places to discuss that than an astronomy forum.

G'Day,
With all due respect Mike,the same can be said about deaths,thats not about Astronomy either,maybe we should have a "Obituary" column or thread that way we can publish and chat about not only idiots killing each other in the States but we can also mention the 1000's of killings and murders around the world mostly war related.
Cheers
Arthur

[fringe_dweller]

btw the way. i have known quite a few gun collectors/enthuisiasts in my life (including me at one point early on, but i am from a the 'smiley get your gun' generation), and at least two of them ended shooting their wives (and then themselves) I think the sqeemish would think twice before using a knife or other gory intimate method, whereas a gun gives a sense of detachment, and distance? making the carrying out of violent thoughts that bit easier?
as for cars and guns - i think a car has many more uses and vitalness than any gun, in this counrty at least - i mean you can transport yourself to the hospital after you've accidentaly shot youself?

[ving (David)]

'smiley get your gun'

[fringe_dweller]

http://www.answers.com/topic/smiley-film-1

its the sequel to this film - some info is there on it - i was refering to an era when it was a common aussie right of passage for a young lad to get his first rifle - usually a .22 - usually to go rabbit shooting with the family.
I also knew some close friends on one of these trips that went horribly wrong - in a accidental shooting, one was left a vegetable - plenty of examples of what happens when harmless fun with guns goes awry.

for a black and white film that had high rotation/prominence on tv when i was a boy in the 60's, there is scant info on the net

[Dennis]

At times I am sure most of us have felt the emotions of rage; be it road rage, supermarket rage, or whatever.

However, the sense of self our parents and upbringing instilled within us, overwhelmingly prevents those emotions of rage from dominating our consciousness, to manifest as such wanton destructive behaviour, devastating so many innocent lives.

We were a poor family, but somehow retained a balanced sense of self, although we didn’t know it at the time, nor label it as such. Most people in our neighbourhood were in the same boat.

Any society or culture that predominantly promotes material success, over-achievement, fame, sporting success, business success, etc as the key success factors to creating the only meaningful self-image, also creates losers – those people whose sense of self is overwhelmed by what they have not. If only I had that bigger house in the poshest suburbs, the prettiest girlfriend/boyfriend, the biggest telescope, the shiniest or fastest red car, a win on the lotto, the perfect figure, attended the best University, etc.

There is no glory in poverty, nor does it appear that there is any intrinsic happiness in wealth. However, if you have that balanced sense of self, it is easier to manage the difficulties of poverty and the potential excesses of wealth, without loosing sense of who you are. I think the answer to many of our ills lies in rearing generations of balanced children, as more and more laws just cannot seem protect society from extreme behaviour?

Cheers

Dennis

[Outbackmanyep]

Well to ME, RESPONSIBLE gun ownership has reinforced my belief in self-control and responsibility and to be a law abiding citizen, i know that if i stuff up i lose that privilige......the deal is that its not the guns its the people that use them....and gun ownership in Australia nowadays isnt as easy as people make out.....all the registration hoohaa has done has helped the police distinguish between lawful and unlawful people.....
Dont forget that the gun used in Port Arthur was one that had been "handed over for destruction" to Victorian police, and sold out the backdoor....so who can you trust really?
And the media beat up the fact that NSW had the lowest hand-in count compared to other states for the 1996 buyback....for people who dont know that NSW already had a buyback scheme in 1988-89 for particular rifles (ie: self loading centrefire rifles with a capacity of more than 5 rounds - BANNED in NSW in 1989!) that were banned under the 1996 review in other states....so its no wonder the count was low cos they werent there to begin with!!
America has a big problem with guns, but more associated with drug and gang warfare, and they already have firearm registration laws! For those guys that are law abiding owners that want to keep shooting or hunting if there are drastic changes its best to ride the wave......

Sorry, now im ranting!
The tragedy in the US is bad enough without my two cents being added but i needed to get that off my chest....

[styleman333]

Seems quite ironic that America would defend their right to bear arms but would attack countries like Iraq and threaten the rest for their wish to bear arms .... kinda weird .
Anyway sad situation, my thoughts and condolences to all involved.

[Mr. Subatomic]

I would say that more people have died as a result of guns than weapons of mass destruction, yet we persist looking for these WsMD when they're right under our noses; Things that are a lot smaller and more readily available to public members of society: Guns

[Ingo]

The problem, in this case as in most, was that the kid had serious mental problems, and as such was frustrated and had, in his own eyes, no other way out. When you see a kid doing this, it's because he doesn't think about the consequences because he just doesn't care about life anymore. Nothing can be done to prevent someone who just doesn't care about life anymore from committing some violent crime like this, whether with guns, bombs, or what have you.

It really is becoming more tragic. The media is giving this guy exactly what he wanted, and did it all for in the first place. It truley is saddening seeing the comments on the victims myspace pages such as "please call me asap so I know you're all right" or "call your parents asap"...posting that comment, then knowing your son/daughter/friend/etc. has been a victim in the incident...must be really hard and...it's just...sad. I'm still a senior in high school, and I've thought about what would happen if somebody came into our school and starting shooting people. How much it would change my thoughs on life, and other people around me.

[matt]

Originally Posted by Ingo

It really is becoming more tragic. The media is giving this guy exactly what he wanted, and did it all for in the first place.

Yeah. You're right. I reckon whenever a crazed gunman goes on a rampage and kills dozens of people it's really questionable why the media would report this?

What were they thinking? That's not news. Anyone can see that.

If this guy was only after publicity, don't you think it's peculiar that he's not around to enjoy 'what he wanted'?

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by matt

Yeah. You're right. I reckon whenever a crazed gunman goes on a rampage and kills dozens of people it's really questionable why the media would report this?

What were they thinking? That's not news. Anyone can see that.

If this guy was only after publicity, don't you think it's peculiar that he's not around to enjoy 'what he wanted'?

If that's not news, what is it
If they don't report it, then they are pushing the problem under the carpet, and after all we cannot expect the media to report only happy stuff.

[matt]

My point exactly

Enough with the media-bashing already.

That was just my way of making a point, Ron