Celestron Australia Update Information

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by dbowie

To be fair to some suppliers in a lot of cases they too have become victims of this "globalisation" trend sometimes backed into a corner having to meet stringent distributors legal responsibilities and leave their passion and patriotism at home to pay wages and feed their families in a discerning marketplace. In the 2.5 yrs Ive been into this Ive seen some major changes in whats on offer its like a conveyor belt of exactly the same but different, bit sad really. it used to be diversify or die now it seems to be do what you have to to survive, although Ive mentioned products I think I might be heading off topic so ill leave my rant there, Im always up for some error/ fact check/ constructive critique, chrz Brenton..

You make a good point Brenton and John Cross also made the point that specialty stores are disappearing. What John may have failed to realise is that this actually isn't a new phenomenon. Globalisation and the Internet may be playing a part in the demise of some specialty stores, I have no doubt, but it is far from new.

If you go back to the 50', 60's and 70's Sky and Telescope magazines and have a look at the plethora of companies that existed back then and look now and see how many still exist. A lot of them are no longer in existence. Many of these businesses met their demise long before the advent of the Internet.

The history of Western Australian astro stores is a case in point. Over many years there have been 5 stores, that I know of, that have fallen by the wayside, for one reason or another. The first telescope store I saw was in the 60's called John Vann in Perth city. I used to drool over the 4" Unitron that he had in the window. I could never afford it, as I was just a dirt poor kid. There was a 6th store, but this went from having a physical premise to an online business, so I don't count that.

In my studies for a BA we are covering creativity and innovation and the one thing that never seems to get raised is market saturation. Take TV's for example; according to ACMA there are 2.4 TV's per household in Australia, yet we continue to be bombarded with ads for TV's. I have two large screen TV's myself, and I live alone.

A few days ago I was reading CNET Australia and the news that one of the manufacturers has introduced an 8K television, yet 4K is yet to be broadcast in Australia. Companies continually push the boundaries and bring out more innovative products to keep us buying, because the market is saturated. The reality is, no one really needs a 4K television. It's mostly a gimmick to keep us buying.

This is the same with telescopes, how many people really want them? Of those wanting a telescope, how many actually have one, or two or three or four? I have five, two of which are not serviceable. The reality is that the astronomy market isn't that big, and that is a major reason that specialty stores come and go, the market is just not big enough to be sustained indefinitely.

It may come as a surprise to some, despite the fact that I won't deal with some stores, I sincerely hope they all survive, as that is good for our hobby.

Cheers Peter

[AndrewJ]

Gday Peter
I think part of it also comes down to the relatively large "overhead" costs that ( brick and mortar ) businesses now have to pay, relative to the past.
Speaking to some traders in my local strip shops, rents are going up way faster than inflation, let alone dealing with all the insurances and taxes required before you can trade.
What is happening now is blocks of those shops are slowly being demolished and replaced with multi story dogboxes.
Includes a nice "architect designed" coffee shop downstairs, but thats about all.

Andrew

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

I can't believe John Cross considers Australian Geographic a premium retailer of Astronomy Equipment. May as well add K-Mart and Big W into the mix.I have periodically browsed the Astronomy Equipment offerings at Australian Geographic stores for about 30 years and still haven't spoken to a staff member that actually had a clue what they were talking about.

Great stores for kids.

Cheers
John B

[glend (Glen)]

This is straying way off being the update John provided. Suffice to say that the market Celestron services ranges from very basic, entry level equipment, through to high end fairly expensive equipment. Obviously some retailers focus on the entry level segment, and Celestron needs to be positioned to service it all. That does not mean that all of the four retailers cannot service any product request, only that their product demand mix onhand maybe different, which is no different from many retail businesses. Skywatcher has a similiar product mix offering. It it not helpful for members here to cast aspersions on Celestron's choice of retailers. You have to realise that the low end market is important in supporting the volumes, and margins, necessary to justify a presence in the market. Not everyone can afford an Obsession, or a SBM, and very few people would start with that choice, they need to get into astronomy at an entry level.
It is probably more appropriate to discuss general astronomy retailing in another thread. This one was informational and specific.

[dbowie (Brenton)]

Hi Glend how are you, all valid and pertinent points, sry to hijack your initial thread, I think the discussion although only regarding Celestrons new approach and commitment to the Australian market thru John Cross's new appointment does encompass all players inc consumers, did start to stray a bit as I noted. Im glad of and benefit from the diversity and cheaper good quality brands available in the market I would love an Edge HD and a Paramount or Losmandy mount, do I need or want it yet prob not so Im glad that we have the ability to own and learn from base level thru in a reasonable cost framework with the suppliers choice of stock and yes Celestron does provide extremely well with this, its just good market strategy which hasn't been lost on other chinese distributors. And yes some suppliers will cater for 'out of the box' items special ordered, which is great whilst keeping their baseline customers covered, theres not a lot of meat on the bones for these guys. I think comments just sought to point out how Celestrons share and commitment in the AUS market could be better overall surely thats a positive. I don't see where "aspersions" were cast on Celestrons choice of supplier ( please correct me if Im wrong) only its AUD cost and service regime thru these retailers. I have 2 Celestron OTAs and Ill def own more so Im a big fan, regards Brenton...

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Gday Peter
I think part of it also comes down to the relatively large "overhead" costs that ( brick and mortar ) businesses now have to pay, relative to the past.
Speaking to some traders in my local strip shops, rents are going up way faster than inflation, let alone dealing with all the insurances and taxes required before you can trade.
What is happening now is blocks of those shops are slowly being demolished and replaced with multi story dogboxes.
Includes a nice "architect designed" coffee shop downstairs, but thats about all.

Andrew

Yes Andrew, you are absolutely correct, the cost of doing business in Australia is skyrocketing. My local shopping centre Carousel (Cannington WA) is currently going through a $300 million upgrade. Every time I go in there, which isn't very often, there doesn't appear to be that many shoppers around. I frequently wonder how most of the stores in the centre survive. I wouldn't want to do it.

Cheers Peter

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by dbowie

Hi Glend how are you, all valid and pertinent points, sry to hijack your initial thread, I think the discussion although only regarding Celestrons new approach and commitment to the Australian market thru John Cross's new appointment does encompass all players inc consumers, did start to stray a bit as I noted. Im glad of and benefit from the diversity and cheaper good quality brands available in the market I would love an Edge HD and a Paramount or Losmandy mount, do I need or want it yet prob not so Im glad that we have the ability to own and learn from base level thru in a reasonable cost framework with the suppliers choice of stock and yes Celestron does provide extremely well with this, its just good market strategy which hasn't been lost on other chinese distributors. And yes some suppliers will cater for 'out of the box' items special ordered, which is great whilst keeping their baseline customers covered, theres not a lot of meat on the bones for these guys. I think comments just sought to point out how Celestrons share and commitment in the AUS market could be better overall surely thats a positive. I don't see where "aspersions" were cast on Celestrons choice of supplier ( please correct me if Im wrong) only its AUD cost and service regime thru these retailers. I have 2 Celestron OTAs and Ill def own more so Im a big fan, regards Brenton...

Glen, threads evolve, and it is still relevant to the overall market that Celestron operates in, so it is still "on topic". It is an open forum and my comments are relevant to the discussion in hand. I am sorry if my comments are not to your liking or upset you. You do have a choice, either put me on your ignore list or kick me off the site. I don't give a toss either way.

Valid points Brenton. It is likely I will, at some point, replace my SCT, as I want a portable instrument for the dark sky sight, but that is going to be a difficult choice. Should I buy a Meade SCT or should I buy a Celestron SCT? The answer should be quite clear, as I have long thought that the Celestron CPC style optics are the better of the two, so that is an easy choice, almost. I am simply no longer sure. The Edge optics I am not familiar with, other than through reviews, so I make no comment on them.

That then leaves me in a quandary. How can I trust that a new telescope purchased today will still be serviceable a decade from now and indeed, if the business I bought it from will still exist. Why should I even have to think about a replacement? Australia's track record in regard to businesses disappearing is sadly dismal, and that isn't a new phenomenon either. York Optical disappeared remember and they were fairly big. Shipping stuff back to China isn't an option either, due to cost and customs involvement.

Celestron have great products and are quite innovative and I will continue to buy them, that isn't the issue. My only issue with Celestron and indeed other non-astro is electronics. It is the electronics that is most likely to fail over time. I never buy anything from overseas with electronics in them, for the very reason that I have an Australian repairer I can go to. For example, Hartlands in Perth for camera repairs.

This is not an issue confined to Celestron either.

[Stardrifter_WA]

This has been an interesting discussion and quite enlightening.

Celestron and Meade SCT telescopes have had a long history in Australia and I hope that this continues into the future. The innovative nature of the new Celestron masters has seen some really interesting developments, although there has been some issues along the way. I do recognise that changing from one master to another can be a difficult transition and that there were lost opportunities. Hopefully, that is all behind us now.

I have bought, even as recently as a couple of weeks ago, Celestron products and they are well made, no doubting that really. Cost of telescopes and accessories remain an issue though, but that is only my view. As a savvy consumer I know what I am prepared to pay and in most cases I see value for money. When I don't, I look elsewhere. Whether Celestron likes it or not, the consumer here can easily access prices overseas and quite rightly has issues with the price here, as there are discrepancies that cannot be accounted for by the usual suspects, exchange rates, freight, etc.

Easy Internet access is making life very difficult for retailers, particularly from savvy consumers who look up the best Australian price before venturing into store. I do this all the time. It is a pain in the arse for retailers, but that is the world we live in, and they have to adjust. Bunnings Hardware adjusted to this reality very early on by beating any advertised price by 10%. That has been hugely successful for them. Because of the easy access to the Internet, savvy consumers are holding retailers to account, whether they like it or not. It is the new reality!

Sometimes I pay the higher prices, as there is definitely "value adding". If I know I am going to get better after sales care, I will pay the extra, after all, that does have a cost. Loyalty is a hard thing to attain, but it is also the easiest thing to lose, and, astonishingly, some businesses do not care.

Retailers have to do a better job of convincing the customers that they are important and that there are reasons for higher costs, like after sales service, if indeed they can even offer it; remember it comes at a cost. As Brenton pointed out, margins are getting squeezed, although that has long been the case anyway, so nothing has really changed there.

Consumers simply have no knowledge of the true cost of doing business in Australia, all they see is the price, compared to other domestic and overseas prices. This situation is probably going to get worse with the entry of Amazon into Australia, if the rumours are true. They certainly drove down prices in the US, and they service their customers quickly. I know this as I buy stuff from Amazon, through a US address, for those hard to get items.

It is hoped that John Cross, the BDM for Celestron, can continue to push down prices in what is a difficult market place in Australia. At some point there will be a downturn, we have had an extraordinary period of growth that cannot last. We haven't had a recession since 1991.

Warranty issues remain a concern, particularly if it is to be left to the individual stores. Yes, they should indeed be the first port of call, as many issues can be resolved fairly quickly. It is major warranty issues that concern me, particularly if the retailer disappears. The long term availability of electronic parts is another issue that needs to be addressed, as that is often what fails first, at least, in my experience. Indeed, it is probably the only thing that is likely to fail, as mechanically Celestron are well built overall. I still see orange tube Celestron's in action.

Better marking of electronic parts for future reference would also be a good move. I have had issues with indentifying of electronic parts in the past. A lack of standardisation across models has been an issue, as manufacturers keep changing everything, in the name of innovation. It makes parts identification difficult.

It is my understanding that both Celestron and Skywatcher are owned by Synta Technology Corporation of Taiwan, so maybe a coordinated approach to warranty issues can be carried out in Australia. It is also my understanding that Skywatcher Australia has 'in house' warranty repairs for Meade telescopes, as their agent.

I guess the complex company arrangements would not allow a coordinated approach to warranty work. It makes it rather difficult for the consumer not having a central repair facility instead of relying on retail outlets, that may or may not be around in the future when they are needed, as was my situation with York Optical, which led to a mess, and made me an unhappy customer.

Celestron products are quality products that should not have many issues arise in the immediate future. However, these are not throw away products that have a built in redundancy, they should last for a lifetime.

I wish John Cross the best in his endeavours to continue Celestron's presence in Australia, with the hope that we see better prices and better after sales care. If prices come down, I may begin to contemplate replacing my troubled Celestron SCT. Here's hoping, although it won't change my lack of trust immediately.

Cheers Pete

[Hol_dan (Holly)]

Originally Posted by ausastronomer

I can't believe John Cross considers Australian Geographic a premium retailer of Astronomy Equipment. May as well add K-Mart and Big W into the mix.I have periodically browsed the Astronomy Equipment offerings at Australian Geographic stores for about 30 years and still haven't spoken to a staff member that actually had a clue what they were talking about.

Great stores for kids.

Cheers
John B

I don"t know what you are meaning here John? My local AG store has a nice looking Nexstar 8 SE on display, some times without dust caps, complete with a layer of dust, kids finger smudges and just yesterday, soap bubbles on it from the staff blowing hundreds of bubbles into the air for the kids in the store. 😬

[Hol_dan (Holly)]

Where does Andrews com source their Celestron products from if not from authorised channels?

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by Hol_dan

Where does Andrews com source their Celestron products from if not from authorised channels?

Grey market imports. They used to do the same with Skywatcher gear, buy in bulk from overseas wholesalers (could be ex-display stock from dealers, dealer closing down stock, factory seconds, etc) and bring in containers. Tasco (the Skywatcher import agent) put the lawyers on them and they finally settled, now Andrews gets all its Skywatcher stuff from Tasco.

Andrews does have a direct importer relationship with GSO. I believe the GSO stock goes into a bonded warehouse until one is sold at which time they bring it out. This is a good way to avoid tying up alot of money in stock. GSO probably retains ownershop until the sale by Andrews - but it could be done in other ways too.

Re Celestron gear, i am sure John Cross will be taking an interest, but unless they claim exclusivity through Celestron Australia, and get the lawyers involved, there is not much Celestron can do, other than cutting off his overseas sources. If you buy a grey import they are usually sent to you in boxes with the brand labels cut off, bar codes removed, etc. Nothing that can be used to trace it back. And any warranty has to be through Andrews, you would not get a Celestron warranty.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by glend

Grey market imports. They used to do the same with Skywatcher gear, buy in bulk from overseas wholesalers (could be ex-display stock from dealers, dealer closing down stock, factory seconds, etc) and bring in containers. Tasco (the Skywatcher import agent) put the lawyers on them and they finally settled, now Andrews gets all its Skywatcher stuff from Tasco.

Andrews does have a direct importer relationship with GSO. I believe the GSO stock goes into a bonded warehouse until one is sold at which time they bring it out. This is a good way to avoid tying up alot of money in stock. GSO probably retains ownershop until the sale by Andrews - but it could be done in other ways too.

Re Celestron gear, i am sure John Cross will be taking an interest, but unless they claim exclusivity through Celestron Australia, and get the lawyers involved, there is not much Celestron can do, other than cutting off his overseas sources. If you buy a grey import they are usually sent to you in boxes with the brand labels cut off, bar codes removed, etc. Nothing that can be used to trace it back. And any warranty has to be through Andrews, you would not get a Celestron warranty.

What is wrong with Andrews grey importing, he makes no secret of it and, from some accounts, he backs what he sells. The reality is that Celestron products are well made, so warranty issues should be at a minimum anyway. I was just unlucky.

Exclusive agreements may be fair to those that sell Celestron, and I can understand that as being fair. It really is fair if you want the after sales service. However, the other side of that equation is why should I be told that I have to deal with a specific reseller if I want Celestron.

Too bad if I don't like any of the current choices of dealers then. I already have a primary supplier, but he cannot sell me any Celestron. I don't think that is fair, at all. But, I get around these restrictions, it just sucks having to go to the extra trouble. I don't buy anything too complex though due to warranty issues. I rarely have any issues and I have only returned a couple of things over the past five years. I have saved far more than it has cost me.

Celestron won't dictate to me where I have to buy, just as you can't dictate to me what to write on this thread. You have no control over me short of kicking me off this site, and I certainly have no issue with that anyway. I really don't like being told what I can and can't do, and that goes to the heart of Australia being a democracy. At least, it was, the last time I looked. I think we still have a choice.

But, to be fair, if I do bite the bullet and buy another Celestron, there is, at least, one dealer in Australia I would buy it from, as long as the price is right, which it isn't, yet.

Whether we like it or not it is a global marketplace. I buy most of my gear online now, both locally and overseas.

I admire your tenacity in defending Celestron. I have no issue with any current Celestron products, as they are very good, by all accounts, and reasonably affordable. It is my fervent hope that nobody else has the same issue I had, and I doubt any will. As I said, I was just unlucky, but it could have been handled better though. It was a set of unfortunate events that transpired due to relationship breakdowns and changes.

Cheers Pete

[Stardrifter_WA]

You will be happy to know glen, I am out of this conversation.

Bye

[glend (Glen)]

Moderator please lock this thread, it is way off the original topic and serves no further purpose.