WideField Eyepiece Recommendations.

[cjmarsh81]

Hello All

I am going to save up for a good wide angle eyepiece in the 12-16mm range.

I love my 5mm Vixen LV. So I have looked at the Vixen LVW, but am not impressed with the 65deg FOV.

I am currently looking at the 13mm TeleVue Nagler Type 6, only because I read Iceman's review of Wide Angle EP's and it comes out on top. This EP sounds really good to me, it has a long eye relief, good edge to edge performance and has an 82deg FOV.

Because it is $465, I just thought I would put these questions out there. Is this a good EP? Is there a better EP? Is there a cheaper EP that performs the same as this EP?

I know this is an expensive EP, but I would rather save up a bit longer than buy something less expensive and regret it later.

All replies are welcome.

[davidpretorius]

i will try and dig up a thread started by dobman where ausastronomer helped with a heap of recommendations re f5 dobs ie like yours.

Pentax are another up that end of the world that are great as well!

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Originally Posted by cjmarsh81

I am currently looking at the 13mm TeleVue Nagler Type 6, only because I read Iceman's review of Wide Angle EP's and it comes out on top.

Keep in mind that every subjective qualitative review is based on personal opinion. Are you aware that the co-author of Iceman's review, John (ausastronomer) puts the Pentax on top?

I can thoroughly recommend the 13mm Orion Stratus. I did have both a 13mm Stratus and a 13mm T6 Nagler, and spent many hours comparing them.

The Nagler is not without its faults, but no eyepiece is. Planetary performance was the most disappointing aspect for me (with too much light scatter around the planet in the centre of field), followed by comfort. It is a bit fussy on eye placement, and somewhat prone to blackouts. But it gets easier the more you use it, and get used to it. It does not have much eye relief. A lot of people find it too little. I found it just enough.

The Stratus is a different style of eyepiece. It is BIG and fairly heavy. It has a big eye-lens, and lots of eye relief. It is lot more comfortable and easier to use than the Nagler. It has a 68 degree field of view, as opposed to the Nagler's whopping 82 degrees, but 68 is plenty wide IMO. It works very well in my f6 and is reported to work well in f5 as well.

Comaring the eyepieces on star clusters and doubles I could never resolve more marginal detail in the Nagler than in the Stratus.

Both eyepieces work quite well on planets, but not up to the standard of UO HDs and Televue plossls.

The Stratus is the perfect public viewing eyepiece, because it is so easy to look through and barlows well to give a very comfortable mid-high power planetary EP.

And here is the best news: Stratus sells for around $180.
Baader Hyperion is another very similar eyepiece worth considering.
Both the Stratus and the Hyperion are clones of Vixen LVWs.

Uh, and I sold the Nagler and kept the Stratus. The Nagler's performance did not justify its high price to my eyes. But, at the risk of labouring the point, pls keep in mind that this is only my personal opinion. If I was rich I'd keep them both.

Originally Posted by cjmarsh81

I love my 5mm Vixen LV. So I have looked at the Vixen LVW, but am not impressed with the 65deg FOV.

Have you looked through one? 65degrees is generous IMO. 70 is the most I would ever want.

[Starkler (Geoff)]

Originally Posted by cjmarsh81

I love my 5mm Vixen LV. So I have looked at the Vixen LVW, but am not impressed with the 65deg FOV.

I personally find a 65-70 degree view just about right, with the extra field of a nagler somewhat superfluous as my eye can only take in so much field in detail.
Have you ever looked through a nagler or an ep with 65 degree field?
I have only looked through one LVW, a 22mm but i liked it

[cjmarsh81]

Janoskiss. No I was not aware that John rated the Pentax as tops. I do remember that the review seemed to have more faults with the pentax than the Naglar. ie distortion at the edge of the FOV.

I know that 80 odd degrees of FOV is a lot. I like the idea of being able to shift my eye around and see more. The reason I would like a large FOV, is the image always moves fairly quickly across my current FOV(My low mag eyepiece is a 25mm plossl with 52deg FOV).

[cjmarsh81]

Starkler. No I have not seen through a 65-70deg FOV EP. I was just thinking that if I am going to save up for a widefield EP, I might as well save up for the widest FOV I can.

Janoskiss. Thanks for mentioning the 13mm Orion Stratus. I had not heard of this one before.

David. I see you use Pentax XW's. How do you find them in your 10" Dob.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Whoah! Davo! You snuck them in past me. I did not realise you got a couple of XWs! Do you like them? Do you love them? Lemme try at SV! Pertty please.

CJ, Mike was more bothered by the flaws of the Pentax than those of the Nagler. John is more bothered by the flaws of the Nagler, i.e. pincushion distortion IIRC. The Pentax is also meant to have somewhat better transmission than the Nagler, and is favoured by some hard-core galaxy hunters over on CN. Every eyepiece has its strengths and weaknesses and people have personal preference for what bothers them and what does not.

Have a read of the discussion thread about Mike & John's review (see link at the end of the review).

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

I just read your sig more carefully Dave and saw the word "Wishlist"!

[cjmarsh81]

DP. I didn't read it properly either. I thought you had it already.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by janoskiss

Keep in mind that every subjective qualitative review is based on personal opinion. Are you aware that the co-author of Iceman's review, John (ausastronomer) puts the Pentax on top?.

CJ- A couple of things you need to understand. The same make and design of eyepiece will not perform at the same level in all focal lengths, this is because some focal length ranges hit the sweet spot and all eyepieces have compromises (left in) to some extent. No eyepiece is perfect, irrespective of how much money you plan to spend. The 14mm Pentax XW is not the best of the XW series, that claim belongs to the shorter focal lengths (5mm,7mm and 10mm), however it is still an exceptionally good eyepiece. It depends on what aspects of an eyepiece's performance are important to you, as to how you rate its performance level. Mike liked the 13mm Nagler because he was "spellbound" by the fact that it gave a sharp view across the entire 82 deg FOV, whereas the Pentax didn't. In terms of the EOF performance of the 14mm Pentax XW, it is not bad, stars do not become off-axis "astigmatic slits" like they do in cheap eyepieces. In the outer 20% of the FOV the stars stay perfectly round but "bloat" in size by about 5% as they are just off best focus due to a little field curvature. This is detectable when you do a direct A/B comparison against the Nagler but it is minimal when you just use the 14mm Pentax in isolation. The 14mm Pentax is certainly usable right to the edge of the 70 deg AFOV. The off axis field curvture in the 14mm Pentax is not detectable on diffuse objects. In terms of eye-relief and comfort the Nagler is not useable with glasses on, but is quite comfortable without them, it has about 12mm of eye-relief. The Pentax has 20mm of eye-relief and also has an adjustable screw up/down eye guard, it is perfectly usable with or without glasses on. There are several aspects of eyepiece optical performance where the 14mm Pentax is superior to the Nagler. The Pentax is sharper on axis and has higher light transmission. I also think it has slightly better contrast and cooler more neutral colour tones. The Pentax has no distortion whereas the nagler has distortion left in the design to allow a flat field of view to the EOF. This rectilinear distortion is not really detectable when vieing astronomical targets at night (unless you know what to look for), but is detectable when panning the sky in a dob at night or when using the eyepiece during the daytime in a refractor for terrestrial viewing. Two of many tests we conducted as part of the review was on 47 Tucanae (NGC 104) and on the multiple star HN 40 in the middle of M20 (Triffid nebula). Mike felt the performance of the 14mm Pentax on 47 Tuc was inferior to the other eyepieces because the cluster "appeared" less resolved. This was because the Pentax had higher light transmission showing many of the 14th magnitude cluster members, which were not showing in the other eyepieces, making the field more congested with stars and appearing less resolved. On HN 40 the "d" star was visible with direct vision in the 14mm Pentax, it was visible with averted vision only in the 13mm Nagler T6 and it was not visible at all in the 14mm Series 4000 Meade UWA.

Ultimately at the top end of the tree, which is where you're at with Pentax XW's and Nagler T6's, they are both outstanding performers and each will outperform the other in certain areas, it depends on the areas that are important to you. In addition, its worth noting most of these differences are fairly minimal and it takes very good conditions and an experienced eye/observer to detect them. For what its worth IMO the 14mm Pentax XW is at least the equal of the 13mm Nagler T6 because it excels in the things that are important to me. Namely, on axis sharpness, light transmission, contrast and comfort.

Whichever of the two eyepieces you chose at this level, you would ultimately be a happy camper.

Originally Posted by janoskiss

I can thoroughly recommend the 13mm Orion Stratus. I did have both a 13mm Stratus and a 13mm T6 Nagler, and spent many hours comparing them.

The above all having been said, I used Rod Berry's 17mm Orion Stratus last Saturday night at Kulnurra, albeit for a very short time only due to cloud, in my 10" F5 dob and was thoroughly impressed (or was it the Tooheys affecting my vision ? ). This was my first opportunity to try this eyepiece and I have to conclude that for $180 it represents truly outstanding value. Not quite as good as the Nagler T6 to the EOF but certainly good to the EOF in an F5 scope and very good on axis performance. It really was a great performer considering its price. If money is a concern to you in any way, the 13mm Orion Stratus for $180 is clearly your best option, it has 90% (or a little more), of the performance of the premium eyepieces at 40% of the price.

The 13mm Vixen LVW that you were also considering is another superb eyepiece, it offers 95% of the performance of the Nagler and Pentax and is about $100 cheaper, so don't rule it out either particularly on AFOV alone.

Originally Posted by janoskiss

Have you looked through one? 65degrees is generous IMO. 70 is the most I would ever want.

I agree with Steve here, a 65 deg to 70 deg AFOV is plenty for me and I find it just as engrossing as the 82 deg AFOV of the Naglers. Some observers find that little bit extra AFOV of the Naglers worthwhile, not me, too much information for my small brain to process

CS-John B

[cjmarsh81]

Thanks Ausastronomer (John). That is very informative and has raised some very good points. I guess the main things that will be important for me in this new EP are:

1. Long Eye Relief. This is one of the reasons I love my Vixen LV. It is comfortable and it helps to block out my neighbours lights(I am living in suburbia for another year before moving to Far Noth Queensland to a small rural town. Yay!).

2. Wide FOV.

3. Good performance over the entire viewable area. The 25mm Super Plossl that came with my scope(Synta?/Skywatcher?) is great in the middle of the view. Towards the edge the stars turn into long squigly sticks.

Cost is always an issue. But with this EP I am not in a hurry for it as I have been spending big of late. So I am willing to save up for a fairly expensive EP knowing that I will be happy with it. The pentax and the Naglar are tops on my list at the moment with the Vixen LVW coming in third. It's going to be a while before I get this EP, so I will continue to scour the internet for reviews and opinions so when I finally do get it I will be able to pick one (so hard, they are all nice).

[Kieken]

I have a Hyperion 13mm (same as Stratus 13 but not completely). The AFOV is 68° so normally it's enough. By the time Saturn has reached the other side of the field I'm able to make myself some tea. The only optical flaws it produces (and that I can detect) is a bit of astigmatism. But you can only see it in the most outer parts of the field. Another minor problem is the fogging up of the eye lens (probably my fault).

Anyway, it produces a mag of 115x on my dob so normally that's enough for most DSO's. Last night it was the most used EP for observing stuff. Pulled some nice galaxies out of my illuminated skies. I'm glad I choose this EP and not another one (except for maybe a Nagler )

[cjmarsh81]

Thanks Kieken. The Hyperion 13mm sounds like a good Eyepiece as well. If you can make a cup of tea in the time it takes for Saturn to shift from one side of the FOV to the other then perhaps a 65-68 deg FOV is ok. The biggest I have seen is 52deg in my 10mm Plossl. That is atrocious and I do not believe it is really 52deg. Saturn will pass from one edge of the FOV to the other in approx 5 seconds.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Originally Posted by cjmarsh81

The biggest I have seen is 52deg in my 10mm Plossl. That is atrocious and I do not believe it is really 52deg. Saturn will pass from one edge of the FOV to the other in approx 5 seconds.

Well, 68 degrees is 30% more than 52 degrees. So 5 seconds will become 5x1.3 = 6.5 seconds for the same focal length. If you go from 10mm to 13mm, then that's another 30%, so that's 8.5 seconds. You better have hot water and teabag ready to go before you start making that cuppa!

[mickoking]

I would reccomend Televue Nagler or Panoptic. Hopefully when Andrews starts stocking 'em their prices will come down.

The premium eyepieces are worth it for the simple fact that when you change telescopes or what ever you will keep your eyepieces, eyepieces are for ever as I like to say I doubt I will ever off load any of my quality eyepieces.

Clear skies

[cjmarsh81]

Nagler is the top of the list. The only reason I would go anything else is the cost. But as I am saving up for this EP, it should not be a problem. Just might be a while before I get it. Can't wait to see what prices Andrews are going to put on them.

[matt]

You've only got about 2 weeks to wait. Had a chat with Lee this morning. I asked him for prices, but he's getting all that nailed down over the next 48 hours or so.

All I needed to hear was "cheaper" ........

I'm feeling light-headed at the prospect. Or do I just need sugar?

I've asked him to put me down for a 20mm T5 Nagler and 35mm Panoptic

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Originally Posted by matt

You've only got about 2 weeks to wait.

or 4, .... or 2 months. I believe it when I see it.

[matt]

I don't Steve. I foolishly go through life believing every single thing I'm told , as wild and crazy and obviously outlandish as so many things that are told to me clearly are!

Come visit me sometime Steve, in my happy land of fairies, goblins and unicorns ... where every day's a sunny day and strangers walk up to you straight off the street to hug you and take you home for soup.

Come visit ...and taint us with your worldly wearied all-knowing cynicism

Just tellin' you what the bloke said

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Originally Posted by matt

Just tellin' you what the bloke said

Don't worry, I know Matt.

I just had some not so good experience with that dealer recently. I ordered an item which I was told was in stock but then received something else. I contacted them and I was told that it's because they did not have the item in stock that they replaced it with what they assumed would be a good susbtitute. I got a refund in the end (incl. return postage) but this sort of practice still shows a level of contempt for the customer and/or ignorance about the products they are selling. (I was reminded of the Simpsons episode with the two guys in the warehouse where Homer orders the "subliminaly slim" tape but gets sent the "vocabulary builder".)

Imagine ordering an 11mm Nagler T6 and getting one of those crummy Chinese $49 11mm ultra-wides. I would not put it past them.

Let's just wait and see how long two weeks is in their timezone.