Most Insulting Price Difference of the Day

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Doesn't hurt to bombard their facebook page either

Good idea Nikolas, but alas, I don't do Facebook.

Despite our dollar being high, prices will always be lower in the US due to volume. Higher volume means lower margins, which is the same for nearly anything that is mass manufactured. If Australia had the same volume of sales as the US then the pricing would be much closer, but we don't.

Smaller volume means higher margins in order to maintain the same percentage profits. And, don't forget one simple principle, if a company cannot make a profit, then they will go out of business. And if companies go out of business then we wouldn't have access to any equipment and would have to go back to making our own.

Cheers Peter

[TrevorW]

you think Celestron are bad compare this US store price with the same product from an Aust seller

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...op+Nav-Search=

http://www.telescopesdirect.com.au/B...Case-Hard-Case


Ad they reckon you are saving 33%

[Astro_Bot]

That's only a factor of 3.5x, taking exchange rate into account. But sure, it's just GST and a little shipping that makes the difference, right?

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

you think Celestron are bad compare this US store price with the same product from an Aust seller

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...op+Nav-Search=

http://www.telescopesdirect.com.au/B...Case-Hard-Case


Ad they reckon you are saving 33%

Yes Trevor, most things in the US are cheaper than here.

I think we need some perspective though.

It isn't 'necessarily' the distributor ripping people off, although I do agree that some distributors do appear to have extremely high pricing in some instances.

The fact is that Australia is an expensive place to do business. Rents and Government (federal, state and local) compliance issues are a high cost outgoing. Particularly rents (plus rates), as they are horrendous here in comparison to those of the US, particularly taking into account population and business turnover. Australia has a small population that has an even smaller astronomy market. Not to forget that wages here are higher than the US. For instance, the minimum hourly rate in Australia is $15.96 as compared to the US which is $7.25, and the average weekly income is 34% higher in Australia. There are many more lower paid workers in the US than here.

Warranty issues are another factor, as the cost of providing warranty is often borne by the distributor. For instance, the freight for items that have to be returned to manufacturer and the subsequent clearance costs on its return to Australia have to borne by the distributor, not necessarily by the manufacturer. Also, on the subject of warranty, in a small market like Australia, the cost of providing warranty is much higher.

When you consider factors such as Equal Order Quantities and Break Even Analysis, we are simply not a large enough market to be able to compete with the US market or prices. The fact is, there are 315 million people in the US compared to 23 million in Australia. We are a small population and rank 52 in the world populations. We are not that important.

The fact is, if you want to continue to be able to walk into a store and look at this all this gear, the price for that is obvious.

Furthermore, as most things in the US are much cheaper there, what do you think would happen to businesses in Australia if we bought EVERYTHING from the US.

As more money flows off shore, the weaker we become. This is why I accept that I will have to pay more here, if I still want to be able to get things like warranty and service.

Although I do buy some things from overseas, and that is mostly because it isn't available here, I mostly support the Australian businesses. I certainly do not want to see them disappear, otherwise, I will have to jump on an aeroplane if I want to see anything before I buy it. Besides, small business is the major employer in Australia and without them, most of us wouldn't have a job, directly or indirectly.

And no, I am not in business, nor would I want to be, as it is tough in small business in Australia. We simply cannot, nor will we ever, be able to compete.

[Astro_Bot]

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

Furthermore, as most things in the US are much cheaper there, what do you think would happen to businesses in Australia if we bought EVERYTHING from the US.

Local businesses that survive (many would not) would re-organise to the new environment to offer a better value proposition to local consumers. These have been the consequences of trade for centuries. I don't expect that to change. Clinging to the past is the worst thing to do.

As more money flows off shore, the weaker we become. This is why I accept that I will have to pay more here, if I still want to be able to get things like warranty and service.

Money may flow off shore in some sectors, but what are the net terms of trade? It's those net terms that determine our collective future, not one narrow sector. We ran "Buy Australian" campaigns for many years and some people made that conscious decision, but mostly people bought at a price point, as they have always done. Many predicitons of doom have come and gone, but we're still here, doing better than many. But, you know what? We're not even talking about Australian Made: astro products are made mostly in China and Taiwan, by Chinese- and Taiwanese-owned companies. "High end" stuff comes from (total pluck!) Japan, UK, Russia, and yes, some from the USA. There's none from Australia of which I'm aware. So what are we protecting, and is it worth the exorbitant price hikes? A tiny first-level repair capability, perhaps? IMO, that is governed by the shipping barrier back to the manufacturer or to a regional hub (e.g. Singapore, or Thailand, or even China where labour is cheapest). If it's subsidised by higher retail prices, then it's inefficient and does not offer the best value to the consumer.

If less money is spent on astro gear, then more money is available to fuel either domestic davings or other consumption - the net benefit may actually be positive ... though small, since that astro market is small.

Although I do buy some things from overseas, and that is mostly because it isn't available here, I mostly support the Australian businesses. I certainly do not want to see them disappear,

Nobody wants to see Australian businesses disappear, but they do, especially if they stick their heads in the sand and cling to an outdated business model. I fully expect the vast majority of retail businesses to move online over the next 20 years, with "shops" simply becoming show rooms and "staff" merely facilitating online transactions, or close to it. As long as the majority shop that way, the rest will be dragged along whether they like it or not.

And how useful is seeing a telescope "in the flesh"? Do you star test before you buy? Do you even view a third-party test report before you buy? Most don't: they buy on reputation and review or advice from other users. Much of what is available in a store can be replicated online (e.g. high def 3D rotating view, zoomable, etc.). It's nice to see it in person, but not essential, IMHO. Personally, I'd trade off an in-person inspection for a detailed third-party (independent) report, and an opportunity to view through at a star party, any day. Maybe travelling shows (in this case, that visit star parties with a selection of gear) could become popular again? There were vendors at Astrofest and travelling shows been a popular method in the distant past for all kinds of goods.

We simply cannot, nor will we ever, be able to compete.

I think that's overtstating things, if true at all. The high dollar is the greatest impediment to international competition, driven largely by the resources boom, our AAA-credit rating and high confidence in Australian financial instruments (according the the analyses I've been reading). But Australian businesses have competed, and do compete, if they're smart enough. Domestic competition in the US is no easier than here - I would say significantly harder - and that has created some lean business approaches that are highly successful. They scale more easily there due to volume (you've pointed out the domestic volume issue) but there is a large question about what threshold volume in a niche market such as astronomy (especially when products are shipped from factories in China, say), is necessary to sustain a viable business. I don't think it's as large as you seem to believe. The bottom line is that without detailed info from retailers, distributors and manufacturers, we won't know what that threshold is.

I don't think it's as straight forward as bandying about a few terms such as minimum wage and volume and saying we will always pay much more due to those factors. We may, but I'd like to see all the figures in detail to understand all of the contributing factors quantitavely.

But, even a cursory analysis should show that the examples given in this thread are not justifiable.

[marki]

Has anyone considered that we may actually be getting a better quality product than that dished out in the states and that may be contributing to the cost? If you read a large number of posts on CN you may very well believe it too as it seems anything made and sold by Meade or Celestron in the US simply disintegrates once removed from the box and exposed to sunlight for the first time. All my Meade scopes have worked perfectly for years now without a problem so perhaps there is something to it? You may very well get what you pay for.

Mark

[Larryp (Laurie)]

I remember back in 1985 when I first got into astronomy, we were led to believe that importing a scope was a difficult thing to do.
I wanted a Meade 2120LX3, and I priced it locally at $7500.00 with no hand controller, dec motor or eyepieces.
I contacted a dealer in California and including freight, duties and taxes, and the above-mentioned accessories, landed it here for $5300.00
Other members of the society I belong to started buying from the same US dealer.
Didn't take too long for the local dealers to start reducing their over-inflated prices once they realised they were losing business

[Astro_Bot]

Originally Posted by marki

Has anyone considered that we may actually be getting a better quality product than that dished out in the states and that may be contributing to the cost? If you read a large number of posts on CN you may very well believe it too as it seems anything made and sold by Meade or Celestron in the US simply disintegrates once removed from the box and exposed to sunlight for the first time. All my Meade scopes have worked perfectly for years now without a problem so perhaps there is something to it? You may very well get what you pay for.

Mark

I very strongly doubt that. More likely, IMHO, is that US consumers are more vocal about problems and, given a larger population, there are more complaints to see.

Celestron SCTs (with the possible excpetion of 14" and perhaps more of the EdgeHD scopes) are shipped complete from China, while Meade are shipped complete from Mexico. I've read many reviews and complaints that lead me to believe that those shipped boxes remain unopened until they reach the purchaser.

[marki]

Originally Posted by Astro_Bot

I very strongly doubt that. More likely, IMHO, is that US consumers are more vocal about problems and, given a larger population, there are more complaints to see.

Celestron SCTs (with the possible excpetion of 14" and perhaps more of the EdgeHD scopes) are shipped complete from China, while Meade are shipped complete from Mexico. I've read many reviews and complaints that lead me to believe that those shipped boxes remain unopened until they reach the purchaser.

And here I was thinking my Meade's were special as they have never faltered in 5 years of use

Mark

[Astro_Bot]

Originally Posted by marki

And here I was thinking my Meade's were special as they have never faltered in 5 years of use

As I'm in the process of acquiring a Meade, I may be about to add my own sorry tale to the pile.

From reading reports and comments, I gather that Meade has concentrated on quality control in the last few years ... well, at least in the LX200 and ETX lines. However, I don't have enough info to tell whether the overall product quality is measurably better.

If yours are good, then hang on to them!

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by Astro_Bot

We may, but I'd like to see all the figures in detail to understand all of the contributing factors quantitavely.

But, even a cursory analysis should show that the examples given in this thread are not justifiable.

Very fair comments Astro Bot and certainly food for thought.

The following link shows some figures of price comparisons. I too would like to see more quantitative research on this, but have yet to find any significant studies. Certainly, price differential is contentious issue and I was merely suggesting that there may be other reasons than mere price gouging. I too agree that business models have to change to reflect changing times.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...=United+States

The fact remains that Australia is an expensive place to live and do business.

In regard to our terms of trade, they may not be as rosy as we would like to think. I would suggest, as has others, that we are only in the position we are because of the resource sector.

http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/20...r-will-they-go

In addition to the above is an article that appeared on the ABC News site today, which shows wage growth is a contributing factor. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-1...ggling/4379590

Cheers Peter

[PRejto (Peter)]

Slightly off topic, but earlier there was discussion about re-shippers in the USA. I purchased my PMX mount directly from Software Bisque before they had an Australian distributor. In any case they had no issue about shipping the mount to Australia, but I did when I saw the UPS price! In the end I had them ship it to Florida where I had MyUSA ship it on to me. I saved just shy of $1,000 in shipping alone by doing this. I think MyUSA is pretty good. You just need to be careful to cancel the account after you use it to keep it from automatically renewing after a year!

[LewisM]

Importing yourself is simple - here is no ned to have acustoms receiving serivce here unless you arebone azy or live a LONG way from the import airport/port. I have been importing my own stuff from the USA for 10 years - Australian Customs guys know me VERY well indeed (all top guys and glas BTW).

I have a US friend who receives for me and sends on. I trust him implicitly. I get allmy Orion stuff through him and it saves me on average about $100 or so (the Skywatcher ED100 focal reducer is around $240 here. I got the Orion branded exact same one from Orion for $149 US with shipping).

I also have a large exporter in Tacoma, WA in the states who will handle ANYTHING, and for a VERY good rate.

[TrevorW]

Remember my examples are retail pricing, both are still making a profit.

Similar scopes through Ebay 1/2 these prices.

Manufacturing costs and retail pricing would be significantly less in China where they are made.

Let's not fool ourselves.

Unless it's something I need straight away I no longer buy from retail outlets (excluding perishables)

[Geoff45 (Geoff)]

But sometimes you get a bargain. I was going to the US last year and was in the market for an ethos eyepiece and I thought I would save a motza by buying in the US. No way. Bintel was about $850. Intent search of US sources didn't yield anything under $800. By the time you factor in US sales tax and lugging the thing around while traveling I went with Bintel.
Geoff
Note added: just checked current prices. OPT US$805, Bintel A$799. Add postage and the local supplier works out a lot cheaper. Go figure.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by ghsmith45

But sometimes you get a bargain. I was going to the US last year and was in the market for an ethos eyepiece and I thought I would save a motza by buying in the US. No way. Bintel was about $850. Intent search of US sources didn't yield anything under $800. By the time you factor in US sales tax and lugging the thing around while traveling I went with Bintel.
Geoff

If you look at Bintel prices now, they are cheaper than those like OPT, even without the current discounts.

Hmmm, maybe I should get a Delos?

Cheers Peter

[Larryp (Laurie)]

Originally Posted by ghsmith45

But sometimes you get a bargain. I was going to the US last year and was in the market for an ethos eyepiece and I thought I would save a motza by buying in the US. No way. Bintel was about $850. Intent search of US sources didn't yield anything under $800. By the time you factor in US sales tax and lugging the thing around while traveling I went with Bintel.
Geoff
Note added: just checked current prices. OPT US$805, Bintel A$799. Add postage and the local supplier works out a lot cheaper. Go figure.

Bintel have had excellent pricing on Televue eyepieces for a long time now

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

If you look at Bintel prices now, they are cheaper than those like OPT, even without the current discounts

FYI, using today's FOREX at close (1.039).

A$799.00 = U$830.16
U$805.00 = A$774.78


OIC!

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by OICURMT

FYI, using today's FOREX at close (1.039).

A$799.00 = U$830.16
U$805.00 = A$774.78


OIC!

I know. I watch the exchange rate closely, as I am planning to go to the US in May (to the RTMC), work permitting. I am hoping that the exchange rate may get better, however, that will mostly depend on what happens in Europe and China. I suspect that the exchange rate may drop below parity, in the short term, if the rumours that the RBA is printing money are correct.

I just wish I had a crystal ball, so that I can buy US dollars at the best exchange rate.

Also bare in mind, you cannot actual buy dollars at that rate. Currency Exchanges sell a little below that, as they like to take a slice, and the bank charges you a fee to buy US dollars. Even with a Credit Card you are charged an International transaction fee, although that is fairly low anyway. When I go to the states I am getting a CC charged with US dollars, so that I don't pay the International transaction fee on every purchase I make whilst there.

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

Also bare in mind, you cannot actual buy dollars at that rate. Currency Exchanges sell a little below that, as they like to take a slice, and the bank charges you a fee to buy US dollars. Even with a Credit Card you are charged an International transaction fee, although that is fairly low anyway. When I go to the states I am getting a CC charged with US dollars, so that I don't pay the International transaction fee on every purchase I make whilst there.

True points...

Exchange houses take about 3% (Travelex is currently at 1.0064). I tend to use my US brokerages to shuttle money back and forth. This way I can get the interbank rates, currently at 1.035/43 and get charged a small fee (1%).

If you don't have this option, you might want to consider opening an account with a money broker. I've heard of World First, but have not used them.

As for credit cards, you'll need a US address to apply for a CC in the USA. Should be easy enough, as US CC companies trip over themselves to get you to sign up... . I've been with Citibank for over 20 years and their customer service calls me every year to see how I'm doing and if there's anything they can do to help me spend my money . Citibank is one of the card companies that charge the lowest fees for international transactions (after they lost a class action suit I was in for gouging from 2000-2004. I got over $2700 back).

The dreaded CC is part of the reason the USA is in such bad shape. The GFC has forced a lot of lending companies to write off bad debt, so I don't know if there are new checks and balances in place for people who live overseas.

BTW: Crystal ball's are the last thing you need for FOREX trading... Steel are much more appropriate...