An open letter on BULLYING here in IIS

[mozzie (Peter)]

geez alex!!!!!!! i hope you wearn't talking about me..iv'e met him and he's big and ugly that sounds like me it's good to have a laugh thats what some people should do...there is those that really think there better and take every chance to put others down...i my self struggle here and always have i know a bit about astronomy and try to help people but putting it into words on a computer and spelling and saying what you really mean...i have people ring me it's easier to explain things to them...and there would be heaps more here with the same........

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Mozzie, there is one word I use very carefully when describing someone:

Gentleman

In what ever way you may feel your "words" might be lacking, I will never see it for I know WHO you really are!

So no, you are not the big and ugly person I was referring to. Mind you, the words do describe you to a certain extent, ...

Take care my friend,

Alex.

[mozzie (Peter)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

Mozzie, there is one word I use very carefully when describing someone:

Gentleman

In what ever way you may feel your "words" might be lacking, I will never see it for I know WHO you really are!

So no, you are not the big and ugly person I was referring to. Mind you, the words do describe you to a certain extent, ...

Take care my friend,

Alex.

thanks my friend...well have to catch up again one day!!!!!!!

but you are correct things are a little different here know...maybe the way the forum is quiet a lot of members and opions!!!!

[syousef]

I've seen this sort of thing happen on a lot of Internet boards. Technical hobbies unfortunately do seem to attract egos and bullying. The best ones seem to peak then be taken over by trolls. It's the way of things.

It's not just the board. In fact it's not just hobbies. It happens within the scientific community and within other workplaces too. History's full of it.

All you can do is try to maintain your own composure and remain civil, while fully realising that there is a wide gamut of other attitudes. So people will want to be civil. Others contribute to bignote themselves. Others to help. Still others just to stir.

When it all gets too much, say what you have to then walk away and do some observing or planning or spend time with your family. Life's too short to waste on misunderstandings and quite frankly on individuals that have social attitude problems.

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

I reckon the bullies on here take the fun out of the hobby, I've cut back my posting because I'm a happy little vegemite but after getting mauled on here a few times for being witty (well I thought so) I avoid it for days at a time.
I said something about the inhabitants of Scotland (you know the ones, they all hold position on unions all over the Western World with Geordies as their sidekicks) Well this lovely guy gives me a racist (!) tag and tells me not to comment on his posts.

No wonder I said what I did....

[Astro_Bot]

Originally Posted by jenchris

I said something about the inhabitants of Scotland (you know the ones, they all hold position on unions all over the Western World with Geordies as their sidekicks) Well this lovely guy gives me a racist (!) tag and tells me not to comment on his posts.

No wonder I said what I did....

Whilst being somewhat thick-skinned myself, I know that there are many others who are quite sensitive about where they come from and react strongly when their origins or heritage is called into question. I find it best to steer well clear of such subjects. Depending on how it was worded, I can kind of see how someone might get upset at a remark like that, even if it was meant in jest. Of course, their response should have been measured and rational, but that doesn't always happen.

[mozzie (Peter)]

Originally Posted by Astro_Bot

Whilst being somewhat thick-skinned myself, I know that there are many others who are quite sensitive about where they come from and react strongly when their origins or heritage is called into question. I find it best to steer well clear of such subjects. Depending on how it was worded, I can kind of see how someone might get upset at a remark like that, even if it was meant in jest. Of course, their response should have been measured and rational, but that doesn't always happen.

great avatar....wish i had that much hair !!!!!!!!!

[Astro_Bot]

Originally Posted by mozzie

great avatar....wish i had that much hair !!!!!!!!!

Now you know why I took up astronomy. With a head like mine, I daren't go out in the daytime lest the villagers chase me with their pitchforks!

[Irish stargazer (John)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

That didn't take long.

Gentlemen, please.

There is nothing better than a well constructed argument provided it deals with the issue and is not a personal attack on anyone or their beliefs.
Actually the thought of a meeting in the pub to discuss some of the issues raised is not a bad idea on some cloudy Saturday when the PC is not an option.
However, I imagine that after a few pints people might be pretty vocal

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

Yup, I only have one person blocked and it's wonderful not having to see their comments. But I still see how that person inflames others.

I'm sorry that you should have ANYONE blocked, JJJ.

I too have only one.

Your comments have been buzzing in my head, and I've come to see that there is a down side to the ignore list:

While one may not see the trash-talk, you can see that the trash-talk and hurt is being perpetuated, there is one less voice capable of reporting the post.

The fewer people there are to stomp on this behaviour, the weaker the site becomes as the trash-talk gains strength.

My particular ignore listee I'm reconsidering keeping them there now. After the many PMs I've recieved on the matter, oh, and on this person too, I in all conscience cannot allow the trash-talk to keep on. I've let my rage cool. I've taken heart from all the repondants who have voiced disapproval of bullying in this thread and privately. I just won't be goaded by this fellow, and will report incidents as they happen. I just can't bear to see more hurt being dished out needlessly.

The mods want us to report offensive behaviour. Let's report it and get something done about it.

[stephenb (Stephen)]

Alexander, while I do not know of your circumstances, I too have been the subject of bullying via derogatory PMs from a well known member here on IIS. I choose not to pursue it however and but I wonder what his peers in the astro community would think of him if they knew how he bullies others with faceless PMs?

These sort of tactics are NOT tolerated in any workplace in 2012 and should NOT be tolerated on a community forum such as IIS.

[silv (Annette)]

while insults in PMs are a different level -
thread-"trollism" is a feature of internet forums that takes getting used to in this rather new communication platform.
I wonder - when you guys say "bullying" - is it maybe actually that normal "troll-ism"?
hit-and-run postings, aimed at everybody who seems too comfortable?

in your market place in your home town, those used to be the "punks" with spiky hair, naughty fingers and dirty tongues.
how did you react to them - if you didn't simply ignore them, I mean?

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by jenchris

.... I said something about the inhabitants of Scotland (you know the ones, they all hold position on unions all over the Western World with Geordies as their sidekicks) Well this lovely guy gives me a racist (!) tag and tells me not to comment on his posts.

No wonder I said what I did....

I don't follow that at all. You complemented someone and they took it as an insult.

[hotspur (Chris)]

[QUOTE=stephenb;865074]Alexander, while I do not know of your circumstances, I too have been the subject of bullying via derogatory PMs from a well known member here on IIS. I choose not to pursue it however and but I wonder what his peers in the astro community would think of him if they knew how he bullies others with faceless PMs?

These sort of tactics are NOT tolerated in any workplace in 2012 and should NOT be tolerated on a community forum such as IIS.

I have had the same here too Stephen,and like yourself choose not to pursue it.I have been told that my astro images are not of a high enough standard for IIS,and now post very few images of anything at all here any more.There certainly are some prickly customers here.However as has been pointed out by Syousef(good post Syousef,with some really good info there),it seems to happen a fair bit in scientific community.Of all the forums I go on,this is the only one where I have ever 'hit a stump',and it was the one I would thought I would never have a negative issue in.

Worth putting up with tripping over a few lantana bushes in this paddock though,98% of the time,many,many members are very helpful,and have made some great friendships,been able to make good progress with astronomy and photography thanks to the vast amount of clever helpful people,been able to help fellow members by loaning scopes and lenses out.Have had a member in Melbourne pick up some wired stuff and send it to me.All in all,its pretty good here,occasionally a few bugs get stuck on the windscreen,but that happens everywhere at some point in time.

I hope Alex,has not had too hard a time here,and the future for you here Alex is all good.

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Mods. Where are you in these discussions?

We see threads closed down, but the offensive posts are left to fester.

Reports are made. PMs and emails sent asking for resolution. Yet the bullies and serial pests persist.

I am not asking for bans. That is last resort. But are words of caution issued privately to these members?

Like Chris, hotspur, I've noticed things change here in the past year. What I was most proud of with this site has changed profoundly. There were very few abusive posts erupting, but now with monotonous regularity. No one who's responded here wants this behaviour to continue, nor the site degrade. We value it too much. I know I do.

Where has the civility gone everyone?

Like I wrote in my original post, I understand misunderstandings happen. But it seems like first resort now is to rip apart.

Silv, I think I see where you are coming from, but I don't see anything normal in trollism. It's poor form, uncivilised and dehumanising. I don't see why it should be tolerated anywhere, here, at work or at home. But bullying is different. Some folks have developed a liking for their personal bunnies, and target them thread after thread, and that is bullying.

[iceman (Mike)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

Mods. Where are you in these discussions?

We see threads closed down, but the offensive posts are left to fester.

Reports are made. PMs and emails sent asking for resolution. Yet the bullies and serial pests persist.

I am not asking for bans. That is last resort. But are words of caution issued privately to these members?

Like Chris, hotspur, I've noticed things change here in the past year. What I was most proud of with this site has changed profoundly. There were very few abusive posts erupting, but now with monotonous regularity. No one who's responded here wants this behaviour to continue, nor the site degrade. We value it too much. I know I do.

Where has the civility gone everyone?

Like I wrote in my original post, I understand misunderstandings happen. But it seems like first resort now is to rip apart.

Silv, I think I see where you are coming from, but I don't see anything normal in trollism. It's poor form, uncivilised and dehumanising. I don't see why it should be tolerated anywhere, here, at work or at home. But bullying is different. Some folks have developed a liking for their personal bunnies, and target them thread after thread, and that is bullying.

I find these things usually calm down on there own. It's not useful for me or another moderator to step in as soon as someone posts a thread like this because it stops other people having their say.

Leaving it run it's course for a while before stepping in and replying gives others a chance to state their concerns, or give their opinion on things - and we usually end up with some great comments - like these:

Originally Posted by erick

You'll be fine, Earl. If anything does arise, it's only words on a computer screen. I agree with Alex, making good use of reporting to the moderators, private messaging and the ignore option is the way to go. Mind you, I've just checked and I have only one name in my ignore list after all these years.

I've seen examples of heated differences of opinion taken offline into email and private messages, resolved and reported back in the thread.

In a community of thousands of registered users and what must be now some hundreds of posters, there will be a whole range of people. Those spoiling for a fight will find other fora much more to their liking - they won't hang around for long.

It is no surprise to me that I find many posters see things differently to me and have a completely different style of communication. That's the world we live in - it my job to learn how to function in that world.

If I'm feeling a bit troubled, I just move on - there are more threads that interest me than I can read and post in.

And this:

Originally Posted by syousef

I've seen this sort of thing happen on a lot of Internet boards. Technical hobbies unfortunately do seem to attract egos and bullying. The best ones seem to peak then be taken over by trolls. It's the way of things.

It's not just the board. In fact it's not just hobbies. It happens within the scientific community and within other workplaces too. History's full of it.

All you can do is try to maintain your own composure and remain civil, while fully realising that there is a wide gamut of other attitudes. So people will want to be civil. Others contribute to bignote themselves. Others to help. Still others just to stir.

When it all gets too much, say what you have to then walk away and do some observing or planning or spend time with your family. Life's too short to waste on misunderstandings and quite frankly on individuals that have social attitude problems.

People will have disagreements and differences. In real life you can walk away and choose not to deal with the person again.
On the forum, things can fester for longer because unless the post is deleted, or you put the person on your ignore list, you're always going to have to 'deal' with the person in some way in the future.

We all can understand where you're coming from Alex, and like we've seen in this thread, many people can come up with instances of where they've felt wrong-done-by, or bullied, or pestered, or put-down, or talked down to, or whatever.

If there we NO instances of it, then I'd be VERY surprised. This is real life, not a cartoon or a kindergarten.

We're all human. We all have different points of view, and some people are better at getting on people's nerves than others.

I'm not going to order EVERY post deleted where SOMEONE may get offended. Of course there are instances where it needs deletion - and other times if it's not deleted, then at times all we can do is shrug it off. I've had to deal with it myself on other forums.

Regarding the original posts that led to this, I'll email you rather than post it here because it's better done in private.

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

[graham.hobart (Graham stevens)]

Help Help I'm being oppressed!
Graz from Tas
seriously though, agree with the spirit fo this thread and would also like to point out that most of us 'newbies' are polite, courteous and willing to listen (and buy!) from this forum.
Vote with your keyboard fingers
Graz

[Dave2042 (Dave)]

As an infrequent poster and frequent reader of the science forum, I think it is certainly the case that things have occasionally gotten a bit more heated than was sensible, and a small number of people have behaved offensively on occasion. I'd certainly sympathise with the feelings of those on the receiving end and wish it wouldn't happen.

That said I have to agree with Mike. The price of having a forum where people are free to express themselves is that some people are going to be dxxxxxxd's. Other than shutting the whole thing down, not much can be done to completely stop this.

I know it can be hard, but I think the best approach is for the rest of us to keep ourselves nice, ignore them, and remember it's just the internet.

(BTW, I hope I am indeed one of us, and not one of them them, and that someone can politely tell me if I'm deluded.)

[Tosong (Daniel)]

Hey Alex I'm with you all the way on this one. It's great that people have a place like IIS to share there different views about certain topics, but it's disgusting and completely unacceptable when adults don't mind their manners. It's such a simple thing to do, yet people decide to bin common courtesy when they think they can hide behind a computer. If the mods won't step in and remind people how to behave, then I personally think a public name and shame thread is the go. Let everyone see just how ill-mannered some people can be, and call them to answer for it. Sorry if it sounds a bit crazy but this thing really gets my hackles up as well. Nice work Alex good to see someone standing up against bad behaviour.