Higgs at 120Gev !

[CraigS]

All this just goes to demonstrate the desperate need for the LHC.

Without it, these disparate views seem unlikely to congeal, and allow theory to move forward.

Some very big names on that list, also.

Sheldon Glashow's poem is very perplexing ….
I suppose the key line is: "Whether Cern finds it this year" … I gather this might mean he thinks it might be heavier than the impending 125 GeV/c^2 announcement (??)

Gerard 't Hooft's comment is a nicely balanced one. This guy is a progenitor of, and Grand-father of, String Theory. (A very cluey guy).

Cheers

[Robh (Rob)]

Interesting assessments from some highly talented people in the field.

Even with my limited knowledge, I can't help but get excited as to where this research will lead us. For this reason, I like David Curtin's comment. Not that my viewpoint can add any more credibility to his remarks.

David Curtin, Stony Brook University

"It could be the Standard Model Higgs, but I sincerely hope not. Only data will reveal what nature chose, but two of my favourite alternatives are extra dimensions and supersymmetry – their discovery would tell us incredibly exciting things about several fundamental questions, including (but not limited to) the nature of space-time itself."


Regards, Rob

[CraigS]

Yep Rob;

Curtin's simplicity (in his comment) also caught my eye ! Good one !

The last I heard though, there seemed to be less chance (or signs) of SUSY than the HB ! (Has anyone heard anything which changes this ?)
Fingers crossed though .. I agree with him !

Cheers

[sjastro]

You learn something new everyday.

.....So I'd like several Higgs particles, Higgsinos, some ghostly stuff, and a pony."

Frank Wilczek, MIT, Nobel prize in physics, 2004

Didn't know a pony was a fundamental particle.

Seriously what is impressive with these comments, it should forever dispel the idea that science is a dogma. Clearly no one is towing a standard line.

Regards

Steven

[CraigS]

Ya reckon Steven ?

Guess we should wait and see what happens after the announcement … personally, I think I can hear the knives being sharpened under the table ! That 3 sigma, (or better), figure will be the first bit to be torn to shreds .. (IMO).

Very entertaining stuff ! .. I'm with Rob .. very exciting !

Cheers

[Suzy]

Originally Posted by spacezebra

Craig

Is it possible to simplify the document attached, Im interested to know a little more about the Higgs Limits.

Cheers Petra d.

I second that.
Thanks so much Craig, for explaining it better!

Last week I was watching a recorded episode of Morgan Freeman's "Through the Wormhole" documentary, entitled "Does Time Exist?" Full episode here. If you f/fwd to 39 mins (watch the whole doco tho, very interesting), one of the theorists (Lee Smoulden) is suggesting that time is older than the universe and goes on to explain that the laws of physics 13 billion years ago are different to the laws we know today. A cartoon demonstrates to photons travelling at the speed of light at different rates.
Quote (quoting both Freeman & Smoulden here): "Did space come first or did time come first. Physicists agree that the big bang created space, they don't agree on whether it also created time. There's a lot of people in physics and philosophy who think that time is an illusion, that's really true with the deepest, deepest level is timeless is outside of time and I don't believe that, I used to believe that but I've come to believe that time is really really real. Lee Smoulden believes that time is older than the universe, it was here before the big bang, and it will be here after the universe ends and he thinks he can prove it by looking at closely at how particles of light behave over long distances. One of the core laws of physics takes that light travels at 186,282 miles per second. If time is an illusion, then this will be true everywhere in the universe no matter where we look. But if time is real, it's possible that the laws of physics changed as the universe has aged. If a basic law of physics such as the speed of light doesn't hold true out in the oldest part of the universe, we'll know that physics has evolved since the universe was born. So time can't be an illusion."
Then goes on to explain the tests that Fermi is doing on gamma ray bursts giving us the chance to check out what the laws of physics as they were 13 billion years ago. Then goes on to show a little animation (at 42mins) of two photons travelling at different speeds after a gamma ray burst.
I watched that doco it seems in good timing with release of this news. Hmmm... so it appears we have to change the laws of physics for today.

Another great episode, "The Equation of Everything" actually shows an example of how two photons of light travelling at the same speed can behave differently when they are "watched". Have a look at 17 mins. Doh, there is no YouTube Video for that one, it was a good too!.

Heavy stuff... As you guys know, I have a limited understanding of physics, but I do enjoy reading about it, learning about it and asking questions here.

[CraigS]

Hi Suzy;

Sounds like you're really getting into it all there !

Humans have probably been pondering time for as long as they've been around. Whether or not it exists without humans being around, is kind of a moot philosophical point, as there wouldn't be much conversation about it, if there were no brains to contemplate it, or mouths, (or fingers in our case), to talk about it. Nonetheless, it is a fundamental to theoretical physics for self-consistency, and for us to interpret its outputs.

A little word of warning … Lee Smolin has some pretty innovative ideas which may yield some interesting insights, and his work may ultimately take physics to new levels of descriptiveness. At the moment, I wouldn't say his ideas have been adopted by the broader scientific community. Some time spent baking in the light of plain ol' Special Relativity, described by authors like Brian Greene, might be of assistance in gaining more understanding of why Smolin's ideas are kind of neat.

This discussion is probably more relevant to the recently suspected faster-than-light measurements of neutrinos, by the OPERA research team at CERN in Italy. I think most folk suspect something has been overlooked in the measurements themselves, whilst at the same time, most would also love for them to be verified by another team elsewhere.

The discovery of the Higgs Boson on the other hand, would confirm that particle physics is on the right track and .. yes .. even Cox might present those big white pearlies in a big grin, if they formailse the rumours.

Cheers .. & good to see you posting your progress updates in the Science Forum .. always interested to hear how your seeing things.

[Suzy]

Craig, thank you for explaining all of that, and a special thank you for the lovely comment at the bottom of the post.

Brian Greene is a favourite of mine and he does explains things so incredibly well. In fact, this afternoon I have just downloaded his latest NOVA series, "Fabric of the Cosmos". Here are the episodes if anyone is interested...
Quantum Leap

The Illusion of Time

What is Space

Apologies if I have deviated from thread a wee bit, but in order to help understand what's going on today in physics, these documentaries are helpful.

[CraigS]

Suzy;

Thanks for those links. I downloaded them last night and watched 'The Illusion of Time' .. I highly recommend it. It skims some of the details in Greene's book, but it is a pretty reasonable attempt at getting to the heart of the essence of relativity and spacetime, in a doco. (The best I've seen so far). If you can absorb some of the concepts he presents, you'll be well over several 'humps' in the learning curve ! Good material for discussion here, as well.

It also provides some answers to your questions about how time can be perceived as an illusion and it addresses the concepts behind 'Time's Arrow', Entropy, the Big Bang and how each is connected into a logical cohesive theory. An incredible achievement based on real physics (for a TV documentary)!

Feel free to query anything in it .. there's good hard science behind what he's presenting .. (not just whimsical sci-fi dressed up to gain ratings).

Cheers

[CraigS]

Meanwhile .. back to business ..

Some rumour-quenching back-peddling in the news this morning ..?…

LHC to narrow search for Higgs boson

CERN scientists say their data will be made public next Tuesday, but any firm discovery will have to wait until next year.

Speculation about progress in the hunt for the Higgs had the physics world and blogosphere buzzing Thursday.

Seems like that 3 sigma issue may be driving the release of any announcements (??) After all, a double whammy of bloopers for CERN at the moment, may not bode well for future credibility (??) .. (Chuckle, chuckle).

Cheers

[avandonk]

I will wait for a time where my superbly developed sense of hindsight will proclaim I knew all along!

Science is all about groping in the dark. Once the lights have been turned on and the phenomena is 'self evident' with hindsight, after the pioneers showed the way. The rest of us then sit smugly and say I told you so.

I remember arguing many years ago about the existence of quarks!

Bert

[CraigS]

Hi Bert;

It seems that in this particle physics business, boldness in the face of risk is only admirable if there exists the capability of independently verifiable results. Risking large resource when there is clearly no verifiability from the outset is a 'con'.

There seem to be many desperate scientists out there at the moment .. courtesy of business realities.

Now where's my CEO's payout cheque ?

Cheers

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Hi Bert;

It seems that in this particle physics business, boldness in the face of risk is only admirable if there exists the capability of independently verifiable results. Risking large resource when there is clearly no verifiability from the outset is a 'con'.

There seem to be many desperate scientists out there at the moment .. courtesy of business realities.

Now where's my CEO's payout cheque ?

Cheers

The probability of a CEO's payout exceeding 125Gev is about 10M sigma!

Bert

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by avandonk

The probability of a CEO's payout exceeding 125Gev is about 10M sigma!

Bert

… and that's easily independently verifiable !

Cheers

[sjastro]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...T_SPC_20111208

Regards

Steven

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sjastro

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...T_SPC_20111208

Regards

Steven

Their calculations predict a Higgs mass between 122 and 129 GeV.

Now how accurate is that ?

Its also the first time I've ever heard the term 'postdiction' !

.. Yet another first ...!… coming direct to you from the mighty Theory of Strings!

Cheers

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Now how accurate is that ?

Its also the first time I've ever heard the term 'postdiction' !

.. Yet another first ...!… coming direct to you from the mighty Theory of Strings!

Cheers

Postdiction is a term borrowed from the electric universe.

Steven

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Postdiction is a term borrowed from the electric universe.

… resting upon the shoulders of giants, I tell ya !

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Postdiction is a term borrowed from the electric universe.

Steven

But they always do things "after the fact" (or should that be fantasy)

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

… resting upon the shoulders of giants, I tell ya !

Bright sparks, you mean