A possible 'water' planet discovered.

[ArcaneMagik (Craig)]

Wow.

Anyway this discovery while it is interesting for the possibility of life, is also wonderful for the study of planetary system formation and the types of planets that can form.

Also, these planets can become SETI targets for future study. That's one sure way to confirm life


As far as I understood with the NASA thing, that was a hang on from the previous administration who's religious outlook disliked the idea of someone trying to find life elsewhere.

[rally]

Originally Posted by CraigS

What a load of gobbly-gook !

All they know is the distance between Kepler-22b, and its host G-type star (which is about 25% cooler than our Sun). They haven't measured the surface temperature of the planet, they have no idea of the composition of the planet ... and it is 600 light-years from Earth!

Out of 2,326 planet candidates, they've found one which is positioned such that its solar derived temperature is believed to be 22 degrees C???? And from that, they rave on about possible liquid water and thence life???

What a load of drivel ! ….


… at 600 light years from Earth we'll never know in our lifetimes !

The accurate, default assumption is simply: "We don't know .. and are likely to not know for a long, long, long time (if ever)" !

Sorry … but the purpose this article serves, is nothing more than a pile of science-fiction and pure fantasy!

Cheers

Craig,

I rarely bother with the science forum because of this sort of carry on.

I suggest you consider moderating yourself from the Science Forum until you can respond in an appropriate manner.

Highly emotive words bordering on aggressive and rude about a piece of published news from CNN posted by a member.

"What a load of Gobbledygook" (mispelled)
"What a load of drivel"
That's the sort of considered reply we all look for in response to our threads !

I wont bother adding in the rest of your dismissive and even insulting comments in the other posts.

You then go on to assume that you know and understand what the physics and technological developments of the 21st century are going to bring on in the next 50-80 years as far as planetary analysis goes or rather what it cannot detect and on that basis make your comments.

Now that is astounding and about as close minded as could be.
This just happens to be about just one of the 100's - 1,000's of exoplanet discoveries that interests people.

It was only 16 years go they even confirmed the discovery of the first exoplanet and only recently that the science had progressed to the capability of being able to detect smaller than Earth sized planets with Kepler etc.
This is a field of science in its infancy.

But you know this.

Spectrographic capability of the future is quite likely to be able to detect some of the atmospheric characteristics of planets, it can already under the right circumstances detect details about exoplanetary atmospheres - so who is to say that they will not detect hydrocarbon related signatures or similar indicators of potential life or of habitable atmospheric conditions in the near future ?
Without Kepler we would not know about literally 1000's of new exoplanets (it found over a 1000 in its first 6 months) - the next space observatory aimed at planetary research will hopefully be all the bigger and better because of the discoveries before it and because it will have been proved successful in its research and justifiable to go to the next level with all sorts of demonstrated opportunities.
To me at least then, it would seem a very plausible near term progression of existing capability.

Exoplanet detection is not all about discovering life ! although that of course does generate enormous amounts of interest from the public and scientists alike.
Planetary formation, evolution, variation and classifications and that of the exo Solar systems they are found in is very relevant to the pursuit of science, discovery and understanding.
The more that can be discovered the more we can understand the universe we live in.
Why ridicule that whole process by narrowing it down to the claimed futility of discovery on one potentially habitable exoplanet ?

Habitable zone exoplanets are of high interest to science.

The purpose the article serves is to release information about the details surrounding a planet that could have water and just a little bit of discussion about the what ifs !
Would you rather have science written up so dry and boring that nobody other than the scientists involved in that particular field could either understand it or even be bothered reading it since it would be full of statistical analysis, spectrographic analysis . . . - no, we have published papers and research information for that.
This makes for interesting news for everyone, it serves to stimulate young minds (and old ones) and maybe even help a few of them to pursue a career in science or better yet astrophysics !

It seems to me you have entirely missed the point of the Article and possibly also the breadth, purpose and importance of the Science of exoplanetary astronomy.

Thanks Brent and others for contributing.

Rally

[CraigS]

What a classic !
Soo many criticisms about my delivery technique, and yet so few addressing the central issue ! Goes to demonstrate the irrational depth of emotion which exists behind the almost desperate need for exo-life to exist … no matter the cost ! Of course, I'm not the only one who recognises this … the media uses it to manipulate enthusiasts every day, and US funding decision-makers seemingly recognise it also.

I shall re-iterate my point:
In the light of impending NASA budget constraints, there is a need to prioritise. Presently, remote exo-life detection is constrained by our inability to verify its success, (or failures), because we have no means to verify its precision.

The search-template for the type of life we might detect, is constrained to a model based on life which exists here. In terms of priorities, if we are serious about finding life in a Habitable Zone (HZ), concentrating efforts locally with the aim of establishing a direct association between an HZ and a discovered instance of exo-life, it seems, would be a more effective way to progress remote exo-life detection, beyond the currently inevitable outcome which by necessity, is solely based on inference and faith. Even if exo-life is not discovered locally, directly obtained scientifically verifiable evidence on environments which don't support life, will still add hard data to the knowledgebase. The alternative, ie: searching spectroscopically for indeterminately caused 'bio-signatures', has no chances of contributing such hard, verified data.

Titan, Europa, Enceladus, Mars and many local moons, either generate their own 'HZ-like' conditions, (or exist in an HZ, courtesy of proximity to the Sun). Exploration of these, is thus more likely to return hard results ... and yet these programs are currently being dropped! If we are serious about the search, then I assert that we should drop the rhetorical, emotively based facade about the foregone existence of exo-life, and take steps which at least have a verifiable outcome and may as a flow-on effect, result in technologies which enable us to reduce the travel-time (amongst many other direct benefits). We should downplay inferences drawn between possible exo-life and distant nebulous 'bio-signature' measurements, and regard them as meaningless chatter.

My outlook in this regard, is entirely consistent with my past posts on this matter, might add.

Originally Posted by rally

Exoplanet detection is not all about discovering life ! although that of course does generate enormous amounts of interest from the public and scientists alike.

This, I agree with. Generating short-term public interest however, with no chance of a payoff, also virtually guarantees long-term cynicism about scientific research. The cost outweighs the potential payoffs.

Note that the rest of Rally's words seem to be in support of exo-planet detection in support of other objectives. I have no problems with such research, nor have I criticised this anywhere. My focus is on remote exo-life detection .. which is a different, and unfortunately emerging domain, entirely.

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by ZeroID

http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2011...red/?hpt=hp_t2
600 light years .. it's almost next door...

Thanks for posting this link Bret.

I think they draw a long bow however they are not the only folk to do that.

I get upset sometimes because I think speculation goes just too far but think thats it is OK to get passionate about science matters even though science demands the opposite.

I do think it must be hard for folk reporting on "new finds" as they have to summarise complex material and present it to a public wanting sensational news ..what do you do?...

Its all good peace to all and best wishes.


alex

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I do think it must be hard for folk reporting on "new finds" as they have to summarise complex material and present it to a public wanting sensational news ..what do you do?...

Be honest and authentic !
Humans are notoriously sensitive to the smell of a bad prawn !
To assume otherwise is demeaning and disrespectful.
Cheers

[xelasnave]

So what sort of life do they think we should find?

alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Be honest and authentic !
Cheers

I agree Craig with most everything you say... I am a little unhappy to see folk getting upset.

alex

[xelasnave]

Scientists recently discovered a new frontier in the race to find life outside our solar system. Dying red giant stars may bring icy planets back from the dead. Once-frozen planets and moons may provide a new breeding ground for life as their stars enter the last, and brightest, phase of their lives.

Now the above is from NASA

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/...zenworlds.html

IS there even a hint of specualtion?


alex

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Originally Posted by rally

Craig,

I rarely bother with the science forum because of this sort of carry on.

I suggest you consider moderating yourself from the Science Forum until you can respond in an appropriate manner.

Highly emotive words bordering on aggressive and rude about a piece of published news from CNN posted by a member.

"
Rally

I totally agree with you. This forum got now few contributors because of this attitude.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by Karls48

I totally agree with you. This forum got now few contributors because of this attitude.

So you agree with this piece of sanctimonious claptrap which in itself is designed be highly insulting. Then of course there is the childish reference to the spelling of "Gobbledygook".

A wonderful piece of hypocrisy to pontificate on the behaviour of other people while at the same engaging in personal attacks.

Steven

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Scientists recently discovered a new frontier in the race to find life outside our solar system. Dying red giant stars may bring icy planets back from the dead. Once-frozen planets and moons may provide a new breeding ground for life as their stars enter the last, and brightest, phase of their lives.

Now the above is from NASA

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/...zenworlds.html

IS there even a hint of speculation?

Hi Alex;
Good to have you back .. check out the Higgs thread ... your comments on that one are eagerly anticipated !

Well, that link is very dated, Alex. In the meantime (6 years) they have found that it was not possible to able to accurately pin down the proportions of water ice:CO2 ice, in that region (other than by assumptions in models) ... as I recall, the thick covering of solid CO2, thwarted the ground penetrating radar measurements and resulted in a heavier dependence on model assumptions. If there's a substantial proportion of water ice, then the reasons for assuming that it was once liquid are (i) geological erosion images ... (erosion which has also been shown to quite easily have been caused by both CO2 &/or H2O ablation .. not solely large volumes of liquid water erosion) and; (ii) the emotive need to couple the exploration of Mars to the inference of life (as inferred by hypothesising about abdundant volumes of liquid water in the past).

Lengthy human exploration might resolve the two competing theories.

The issue also set the scene for the upcoming mission which targets measuring the rate of escape of volatiles from the Martian upper atmosphere.

An interesting aspect the article raises is, that the numbers of potential HZs could quite easily, escalate to very sizeable numbers. What impact does the value of remote exo-life sensing searches then have in narrowing the search zone for exo-life ? It would seem to diminish as the numbers of potential HZs increases (?)

The seeking of hard, locally sourced, verifiable data from already established known HZs (based on the Earth model), on the other hand capitalises on what we already know ... as opposed to attempting to build on a faith-based perspective.

Cheers

[CraigS]

I'm actually finding it amusing that so far, about the only contributions to this thread, (apart from my own and one other), appear to serve purely the cause of turning it into a (dis)popularity contest.

I have no interest in being popular in this forum, with anyone who refuses to engage on discussions about the science issues.

Cheers

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

We need to look because it is the next hill to look over.

What would have happened if the early explorers of planet Earth had said we can't prove that other life exists on other land masses or even if there are other land masses existing therefore we should not go.

And to early humanity before reliable shipping the other continents would have been no different than we consider travel to other star systems it is the dreaming which pushed those early explores to develop new ships as an example of new technology without imagination we will go nowhere.

The technology to do these things will come just as modern shipping enabled the discovery of and mapping and inhabiting of the Earth so shall we make the next leap of expansion into our Galaxy so we should be preparing for that exploration and simply wait to discover what is there but never stop dreaming as it is dreams that propel us forever onward and upward.

[xelasnave]

Hi Craig.

My posting of the link was an attempt at calming the waters.
Here is another

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1103190356.htm

I have been following the Higgs thread and the wonderful link Steven posted... I read everything every day in this forum and follow all the links but try to avoid posting opinions.

I have always suspected the job of the Higgs would be done by smaller particles ... only a guess as they say.

The unrest here is unfortunate as all are wonderful people and I hate to see folk upset for any reason. I hope all can settle and not take things personal.

With Xmas very near many folk can feel "press ur red" and yet unaware of why... the why is complex however at this time of the year we can be more emotional and not understand why...add to that the crazy weather and we may gain an appreciation that forces are at play we dont recognise or accept...and so I say peace everyone... let anyone vent if they must and move on.

This is a wonderful forum and it is such because there is a wide range of levels that are engaged. It is a place where a mug like me can talk with wonderful folk who could be totally dismissive of my ideas or input because frankly they know their stuff.

I hope that all can offer input small or great without fear of being put down... and I do think your splat was at the reporter and not the poster of the the original link herein ..others may see it another way and maybe thats why things have got a little heated...I dont know as everyone has their personal reality which I can not second guess.

Merry Xmas may peace and goodwill prevail.

AS you know I follow closely all the news on life (here and out there) and the hunt for it ...and thanks for your pointers above.

alex

[ZeroID (Brent)]

If we suddenly received a bunch of radio signals from the direction of Kepler from a similarly advanced civilisation of 600 years ago ... might THAT sway your thinking ?
Who is to say that a year from now a sudden burst of decipherable signal from that zone, another life form attempting to make contact or learn in exactly the same way we are now. With the same interest and query of 'Is there anybody out there ?' ( with respect to Pink Floyd )

Well, I'm a bit sorry I upset Craig (not really ) but otherwise this has been an interesting and elucidating discussion (for most that is ).
I'd suggest Craig that you remove the blinkers that rule your life and just open your mind up a bit, you never know what you might learn.

Cheers all

[Robh (Rob)]

Hi all,

I've only just bothered to read up on this thread, as I usually avoid the topic because of its highly speculative nature.

I think that the discovery and study of exoplanets is probably of no less importance than any other research e.g. massive stars and supermassive black holes in galaxies. Each piece of research adds more to our knowledge about the universe and how it functions. Obviously, only recent technology (e.g. advances in interferometry) has permitted the hunt for smaller planets. And as advances continue, it may be possible that signatures of specific atmospheric molecules may be detected.

However, I think we should not get ahead of ourselves. The detection of an Earth-like planet, although lending some credibility to the speculation that life might exist out there, says nothing about whether life actually does exist there. Until, one biological organism is found somewhere else, or at least the signature of its existence, then it remains what it is - pure speculation. Evidence of life on a local planet would certainly give more credibility to the exo-life concept but then there is the possibility of local "contamination". Maybe, life only exists in our own solar system.

As for the distances involved, it is highly unlikely man will be able to travel to any exo-planet to discover any possible life first-hand for a long time. I think we will be lucky to survive the next few hundred years as we may destroy life on the very planet we live on. We will need to make some extra-ordinary leaps in physics to migrate somewhere else and it seems man's intellect may fall-short at this important crossroad in our evolution.

However, I think it is possible to detect intelligent life if it exists elsewhere. By directing our searches to Earth-like planets, based on the assumption that life exists here on Earth, we may be increasing our chances of detecting intelligent signals from those planets. Of course the signals may take several hundred years, but assuming they have been around for a while and haven't destroyed their planet, we are in with a chance.

In my mind, there are two alternatives. Either, life on Earth is unique, brought about by an incredible singular interaction of non-repeatable events (i.e. probability of repetition equals zero) or this universe has a propensity for life everywhere, which is also extraordinary.

Regards, Rob

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by ZeroID

If we suddenly received a bunch of radio signals from the direction of Kepler from a similarly advanced civilisation of 600 years ago ... might THAT sway your thinking ?
Who is to say that a year from now a sudden burst of decipherable signal from that zone, another life form attempting to make contact or learn in exactly the same way we are now. With the same interest and query of 'Is there anybody out there ?' ( with respect to Pink Floyd )

Well, I'm a bit sorry I upset Craig (not really ) but otherwise this has been an interesting and elucidating discussion (for most that is ).
I'd suggest Craig that you remove the blinkers that rule your life and just open your mind up a bit, you never know what you might learn.

Cheers all

Hi Brent;
It appears that I should clarify that my more emotional comments were certainly not directed at yourself. I don't feel that anyone should necessarily feel any ownership of the content of links published in a thread, unless we explicitly state our support for it .. your comments were very brief, and I had something to say .. so I did.

The argument you present above, is an argument from what may/may not have occurred 600 years ago … it never happened ... so from where I sit, I can see zero reasons to justify any changes in my direction. Pink fairies and purple goblins might once have existed, or might suddenly pop into existence, does this now change your direction in present-day life ?

Everyone seems to be warning me about wearing blinkers … I'm quite proud of being able to put them on when a situation calls for it ... and that I can explain exactly why they're on. If people were unable to do this, civilisation would have gotten nowhere. It seems that many others seem to think that an open mind is some kind of default 'virtue' … this idea is simply naive in many science discussions … and this is one of them.

Cheers

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Originally Posted by sjastro

So you agree with this piece of sanctimonious claptrap which in itself is designed be highly insulting. Then of course there is the childish reference to the spelling of "Gobbledygook".

A wonderful piece of hypocrisy to pontificate on the behaviour of other people while at the same engaging in personal attacks.

Steven

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, same as I'm entitled to to agree with Rally's replay to Craig's insulting tone.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Karls48

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, same as I'm entitled to to agree with Rally's replay to Craig's insulting tone.

Except as I have explained .. the 'insulting tone' has come from within your own mind. Not from mine.

[RobF (Rob)]

I couldn't help thinking of Arthur C Clarke while browsing through this one. His quote that went something like "when a distinguished professor says something isn't possible he'll often later be proven wrong by a young upstart scientist that suggests something might be possible".

This isn't meant to be a commentary on anyone's level of knowledge - I just hope we will have better tools for exploring for interstellar life during our lifetimes. The commentary on the trials and tribulations of identifying other planets in the latest S&T was a fascinating read too along these lines.