More Anti Science Hysteria

[sjastro]

Re the first chap......I found the attacks on my heros particularly offensive I find that sort of attack offensive in any context...Not only was Newton not wrong but the Principallia was only one part of his guinius..check his banking credentials...seeing spagetti in the sky how childish...who can we thank for the solar panel really mmm the science was good enough to get the Nobel Prize ... and to have a go at someone who in the face of unimaganable adversity carries on... not just carries on... but where others would have rolled over and given up has accomplished fame and respect for physics argueably the most demanding of all human followings.

Alex,

Poor Issac would be turning in his grave accused of being a "Relativist".
Newton was a staunch advocate of absolute time and absolute space.

Regards

Steven

[Outbackmanyep]

Well.....that was a waste of space, much like the tool who made the website.....

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Alex,

Poor Issac would be turning in his grave accused of being a "Relativist".
Newton was a staunch advocate of absolute time and absolute space.

Regards

Steven

Yes I had a laugh about that Steven.

Even a mug like me knows that.

But ironically the night before you posted the original herein I saw that chap on a utube vid I thought he was giving a lecture of legitimate science which I am sure he thought he was but for what ever reason I did not whatch it though... certainly had turned off before he said anything out of place so I never got to his punch lines happily..
As I said I dont have time to check out alternate ideas and any of mine if they are to have validity they must fit into and be capable of description within current proven "norms"... gee Steven if I have the problems with legitimate science on a point by point analysis how critical do you think I am of what I regard as a nutter... privately of course... but I never waste time on analysing so many propositions I encounter let alone take time to argue against them... encountering my friend the tarot card reader has taught me there is no point trying to destroy the logic custom etc that is tarot card reading etc... similar to religion etc...they just are..they are unfortunately in majority... I have yet to meet a lady who is not into astrology.. they think I am cool because I like the stars also...what can you say... I have a minority view it seems that I think belief systems need the reasurance and support of a reality suggested by science not by superstition.
As wild as my ideas may seem to others I would like to think I always offerred a physical mechanism that could work and as you know.. rightly or wrongly I have only ever seen push fitting into a GR metric.. but others want to destroy good work to substitue nothing but waffle... I waffle too so its hard to be critical ...often when you pick out your dislikes in others they can be "relections" of a dislike about ones self and are as guilty of the crime you see in others.
But given what I say here is the only thing I say at all, due to my isolation, you can expect a little chatter from me I expect ...if the Sun is out I have power so how do you think I regard the "magic" behind a solar panel.

alex

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Yes I had a laugh about that Steven.

Even a mug like me knows that.

But ironically the night before you posted the original herein I saw that chap on a utube vid I thought he was giving a lecture of legitimate science which I am sure he thought he was but for what ever reason I did not whatch it though... certainly had turned off before he said anything out of place so I never got to his punch lines happily..
As I said I dont have time to check out alternate ideas and any of mine if they are to have validity they must fit into and be capable of description within current proven "norms"... gee Steven if I have the problems with legitimate science on a point by point analysis how critical do you think I am of what I regard as a nutter... privately of course... but I never waste time on analysing so many propositions I encounter let alone take time to argue against them... encountering my friend the tarot card reader has taught me there is no point trying to destroy the logic custom etc that is tarot card reading etc... similar to religion etc...they just are..they are unfortunately in majority... I have yet to meet a lady who is not into astrology.. they think I am cool because I like the stars also...what can you say... I have a minority view it seems that I think belief systems need the reasurance and support of a reality suggested by science not by superstition.
As wild as my ideas may seem to others I would like to think I always offerred a physical mechanism that could work and as you know.. rightly or wrongly I have only ever seen push fitting into a GR metric.. but others want to destroy good work to substitue nothing but waffle... I waffle too so its hard to be critical ...often when you pick out your dislikes in others they can be "relections" of a dislike about ones self and are as guilty of the crime you see in others.
But given what I say here is the only thing I say at all, due to my isolation, you can expect a little chatter from me I expect ...if the Sun is out I have power so how do you think I regard the "magic" behind a solar panel.

alex

Alex,

Any alternative theories are worth considering, but when the advocates of these theories spend their time bashing mainstream science you know there is an ideological opposition involved masquerading as an alternative science.

While this site is run by a screwball the unfortunate fact is his ideas are embraced by a large number supposedly "saner" sites such as the EU Thunderbolts site. So I can only assume they have no issues with putting relativists to death either.

The point of my original post is what drives people to this form of behaviour. We have already seen this locally with death threats against various climate scientists.

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

Steven we deal always with humans we are humans our past is one of confrontation and protection of territory.
We possibly disregard too easily our recent past where absolute destruction of an opponent was the norm. Many battles saw all killed and all buildings etc destroyed even to the point that the horses and cattle would die because they were not as good as our cattle approach ..I try to understand behaviour in the context of our past.. I think I come from warriors ...as we all did..once every man would have been in a clan fight or war ..so many grew crops in the summer but fought the rest of the time approach...generation after generation I suspect... Tollerance is a new quality humans are still trying to embrace. My respect for law is that it reduced the need for so much blood shed in one way.
Folk just need to sit under the stars and get some perspective on their greatness.
I think it is disturbing however the seeming surge in violence as a means of resolution.
Arguement should be devoid of many things humans use in debate.

alex

alex

[CraigS]

Some folk here may find these kinds of threads tiresome but frankly, I am overwhelmed by the following pseudoscientific sites actually have thesedays.

Other Physics forums are flooded with EU thinking, (or covert derivatives thereof), and I find it very difficult to extract where the rot has set into the arguments presented.

Steven's point here is certainly not invented .. it is definitely real, from what I can see.

Separating the stories which these folk propagate, (through either innocent means or otherwise), frequently requires a lot of in-depth knowledge of mainstream concepts.

I'd like to think we could keep IIS' Science Forum a place where one could visit, in order to get the basic straight.

There is good, sound rationale behind the purpose of threads like these.


Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

What I can see here, Steven, is that these lunatics see science, in general, and scientists in particular as a threat to their cherished notions of what constitutes "reality". This is precisely the same attitude and reaction that the religious fanatic or misguided person undergoes. Strong, "faith" based ideologies tend to produce these sort of reactions in people. You can see this in the homepage for T'bolts where they have "a role for you" in one corner. They're trying to appeal to the personal in order to make converts to their "religion". Trying to activate the internalised sense of faith and belonging to something greater than themselves. Politicians use exactly the same tactics in order to win support. It's the oldest trick in the book and the way religions, political groups and tyrants/dictators etc get their support base. Much like the jingoistic, nationalistic campaigns to win support for war efforts. Science, because it doesn't represent any of that and comes from an entirely different PoV and paradigm, is seen as a threat to that mode of thinking. Hence, because scientists represent that "heresy", they're attacked as being the messengers of the "false prophecy".

When you appeal to that belonging to and longing for something greater, you invariably get those that are dissatisfied with the accepted way of thinking and its philosophy, joining the aberrant line of thought. In whatever way they may be dissatisfied and to whatever degree they disagree with and/or can't accept/understand the orthodox train of thought.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by renormalised

What I can see here, Steven, is that these lunatics see science, in general, and scientists in particular as a threat to their cherished notions of what constitutes "reality". This is precisely the same attitude and reaction that the religious fanatic or misguided person undergoes. Strong, "faith" based ideologies tend to produce these sort of reactions in people. You can see this in the homepage for T'bolts where they have "a role for you" in one corner. They're trying to appeal to the personal in order to make converts to their "religion". Trying to activate the internalised sense of faith and belonging to something greater than themselves. Politicians use exactly the same tactics in order to win support. It's the oldest trick in the book and the way religions, political groups and tyrants/dictators etc get their support base. Much like the jingoistic, nationalistic campaigns to win support for war efforts. Science, because it doesn't represent any of that and comes from an entirely different PoV and paradigm, is seen as a threat to that mode of thinking. Hence, because scientists represent that "heresy", they're attacked as being the messengers of the "false prophecy".

When you appeal to that belonging to and longing for something greater, you invariably get those that are dissatisfied with the accepted way of thinking and its philosophy, joining the aberrant line of thought. In whatever way they may be dissatisfied and to whatever degree they disagree with and/or can't accept/understand the orthodox train of thought.

Carl,

Leaving aside the more extreme elements that advocate executing Relativists or murdering Climate Scientists on the grounds of fundamentalism, sites like Tbolts exploit the human nature of resenting people that are perceived as being more intelligent.

The Tbolts forums frequently degenerate into attacking the intellectual capacities of say an Einstein or a Hawking by people who do not even have vaguest comprehension of their works. Then there is the general criticism of associating mainstream science with religion implying that scientists are unable to think for themselves.
It seems that the portrayal of scientists as imbeciles is done by individuals that are most threatened.

Like any good pseudoscience site, Tbolts associates simplicity with "truth".
EU is easier to understand than the "mathemagic" mainstream so therefore it must be right.

Regards

Steven

[renormalised (Carl)]

Actually, Steven, I think all our assessments are pretty close to the mark.

They're just all sad individuals

[marki]

What I think is missing in this thread is that the vast majority of minds on this planet are not wired to understand science and that makes us the minority. Each year I meet a new group of year 8's and by the third week I can tell you who will be sitting in the upper school physical science classes (barring some sort of personal disaster) sad but true. No matter how much I try only three in thirty kids on average show any real understanding and this is not just a reflection of my experience but is an aknowledged world wide trend that has been discussed for years. Kids don't like things they cannot master and they carry this into adulthood. It should stand to reason then that fools who set up websites bashing science will soon get a good following convincing many of the follies of science. This is compounded by how badley science is often communicated as well as the arrogance in which some of its most celebrated members treat those who don't understand ( I to have been guilty of this on a number of occasions luckily I am not celebrated ). If we don't get better with our PR, we will be responsible for our own grief and hand more power to the likes of the idiots who setup such websites.

Mark

[bojan]

Very true, Mark.
Instead of winging about how people are stupid, we have to devise strategies as how to approach the average people and deliver the information in a format suitable for them to accept and comprehend.
It is not entirely true that it's impossible to do it without using comprehensive mathematical tools. it is only much harder.. but it is also a challenge.
Dismissive attitude will not do any good to the cause of scientific education, quite the opposite will and is happening.
At least we should try not to generate more enemies than we already have...

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by marki

What I think is missing in this thread is that the vast majority of minds on this planet are not wired to understand science and that makes us the minority. Each year I meet a new group of year 8's and by the third week I can tell you who will be sitting in the upper school physical science classes (barring some sort of personal disaster) sad but true. No matter how much I try only three in thirty kids on average show any real understanding and this is not just a reflection of my experience but is an aknowledged world wide trend that has been discussed for years. Kids don't like things they cannot master and they carry this into adulthood. It should stand to reason then that fools who set up websites bashing science will soon get a good following convincing many of the follies of science. This is compounded by how badley science is often communicated as well as the arrogance in which some of its most celebrated members treat those who don't understand ( I to have been guilty of this on a number of occasions luckily I am not celebrated ). If we don't get better with our PR, we will be responsible for our own grief and hand more power to the likes of the idiots who setup such websites.

Mark

Totally agree with your assessment, Mark. It's what I've said all along...some people can do science, some can't. Like some people are good at fixing cars and others can't even change a spare tire.

The thing, though, which really irks me is when someone ask a question, expecting to get an answer, then after getting that answer turns around and start arguing with you and says you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about (or, at least, implies just as much)...that's just not on. You wonder why we then don't bother with answering questions or get dismissive and defensive. Good PR is always a bonus and there's a few scientists that really need some guidance in this area, but when you have twits who can't count to ten unless they've got a calculator at hand telling you what you should know about something you've spent years studying, then you can't blame scientists for not bothering to explain anything. Or, seeming to appear arrogant and dismissive. They have every right to be. No one likes being treated like a fool, especially by those people who are the ones who are acting the fools.

[avandonk]

I have had a 'person' with a PhD that did not know the time of day. This idiot shut down an experiment in our lab on the weekend 'as it did not seem to be getting the correct results'. You could hear my raised voice on all four floors of the building on the Monday morning. Not only was he totally out of his depth but he had absolutely no right to interfere with my equipment. I made it very plain to him if I ever saw his face in my lab I would smear it all over the floor an atom thick! His access key was totally blocked so, this could not happen again.
We are wasting our valuable time talking to these ignorant morons. This is the grim reality.
They do not have the tools to even begin to start to learn to have a clue!
The young are our only hope and even they are smart enough to realise that a crooked sorry talented banker can make $500K a year and a scientist at best <$100k.

All we can do is point out the flood of idiocy. But it is like a tsunami and we are being drowned in total rubbish!

Bert

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

I'm still not sure when string theory got elevated to a science, but at least it has some elegant math.
One of the prices we pay for instant information on the 'web' (2.0) is the plethora of crackpots that are as free as anyone to expostulate whatever nonsense thay want.

The truly important thing, in fact the ONLY important thing, is that these people are not allowed credence at the political level.
Remember in the late '80s, America was effectively being run by Nancy Reagan's astrologer!
Look how well that turned out.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Waxing_Gibbous

I'm still not sure when string theory got elevated to a science, but at least it has some elegant math.
One of the prices we pay for instant information on the 'web' (2.0) is the plethora of crackpots that are as free as anyone to expostulate whatever nonsense thay want.

The truly important thing, in fact the ONLY important thing, is that these people are not allowed credence at the political level.
Remember in the late '80s, America was effectively being run by Nancy Reagan's astrologer!
Look how well that turned out.

Too late for that, Peter. Creationism has political credence in the US and in some other countries and it's spreading. It's not the only crackpot idea that's spreading around, either.

It's usually those people that are in the most serious trouble that can't see that they are. They just blithely carry on like nothing's happening or going to happen, and then when it does, they're usually the first to start blaming everyone else but themselves. We're in trouble...some more so than others, but the rot has set in. We're in the same position as Rome was in 350-400AD and it won't be long before something happens to make everything start to unravel. Might be a few decades or so, but it will happen. I only hope we can manage to stop it, or at least some of us can.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Too late for that, Peter. Creationism has political credence in the US and in some other countries and it's spreading. It's not the only crackpot idea that's spreading around, either.

"Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science."

An article from Quackwatch.

Regards

Steven

[bojan]

Originally Posted by sjastro

"Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science."

An article from Quackwatch.

Regards

Steven

Yep.
It is hard to say which sign is THE most important, but my opinion is it is this one (discussed earlier in this section, if I remember correctly)

6. The discoverer has worked in isolation.

The image of a lone genius who struggles in secrecy in an attic laboratory and ends up making a revolutionary breakthrough is a staple of Hollywood's science-fiction films, but it is hard to find examples in real life. Scientific breakthroughs nowadays are almost always syntheses of the work of many scientists.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by bojan

Yep.
It is hard to say which sign is THE most important, but my opinion is it is this one (discussed earlier in this section, if I remember correctly)

Being alone helps crazy thats for sure.
I was surprised that Leonard Suskin in the Elegant Universe basically said he spent all this time in his attic working out string theory and felt like hitting the bottle when it wasnt accepted.... I did not realise who he was at that stage and regarded him as suspect because the loney thing had been pointed out to me earlier... so it was strange he/they made such a statement ..it is always in the spot a crackpot list.
Look at the first radio..hardley an individual effort... and how large was it..
Many examples really.
alex

[sjastro]

Scientific illiteracy in the general population is the catalyst for misinformation to spread.

Here is an example.

Dihydrogen monoxide:

is called "hydroxyl acid", the substance is the major component of acid rain.
contributes to the "greenhouse effect".
may cause severe burns.
is fatal if inhaled.
contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.
Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:
as an industrial solvent and coolant.
in nuclear power plants.
in the production of Styrofoam.
as a fire retardant.
in many forms of cruel animal research.
in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

Regards

Steven

[renormalised (Carl)]

Better not have another glass of water ever again. According to that, it might do all sorts of nasty things to me